Tesla Unionization

[Krugerrand]

mars_or_bust made a claim about unions and "wokism". I refuted that claim.

And you apparently don't know how the labour market works in Sweden.

You went on about roads, The Internet, and government incentives that all companies that produce EVs can claim, none of which has anything to do with what’s going on.

Hey, everything I know about the Swedish labour market is what you, IF Metall and the Internet has told me - which doesn’t amount to much in the way of DETAILS.

Feel free to educate. Start by telling us what PRECISELY is in the IF Metall collective agreement documents that Tesla finds not conducive to their business culture, but most other Swedish businesses embrace for their workers. I’d really like to know because if Tesla is a company mistreating their employees, I won’t support them any longer. FYI, long hours, having to work hard, not having a pension plan doesn’t apply. Those are basic requirements of Tesla and nothing applicants aren’t aware of beforehand. Jobs are not playgrounds for lazy, unambitious people, and each of us is responsible for our own money saving and retirement plans.

What I do know is how unions work. I know how they work because they are run by people and I know people. I also know money is involved and I know how money affects people. I also have a pretty good grasp now of how IF Metall works, along with the other unions that have joined them in the blockades and such because ‘actions’. It’s a whole other level of disgusting that even the UAW has never stooped to. Still, I understand you believe it to be right and justified.

So once again, SPECIFICALLY, what is in the collective agreement that Tesla is baulking at? That’s the key to the whole situation.

Note Tesla does have other business locations with labour unions, like Grohmann and Berlin factory. So they aren’t ‘anti-union’ despite what anyone says.

 

[EVNow]

It’s not relevant that’s why nobody mentions it. UAW leaders were corrupt, doesn’t matter how they got there.

So are the company managers - corrupt and highly unethical. They bribed so that they could stick it to the workers.

Like the slave traders paying off local recruits.

Didn’t read rest of your rant.

 

[Unclepaul]

In the latest UAW worker action, Ford asked the Union for their help on a worker issue they were struggling with.

Seems Union workers in Michigan often simply do not show up for work when scheduled. They do not call, give explainations, ask for time off etc, they simply do not show up. This causes chaos on the assembly line, as either others take up the slack and do the work the person was supposed to do, or simply shut down that station for safety reasons.
Unions response is Ford simply has to accept that that is the way it is, and that when a worker decides not to come in that Ford simply needs to deal with it.
This would have been a great time for the Unions and Owners could work together to make the company stronger together. The Union simply told them to pound sand.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

You went on about roads, The Internet, and government incentives that all companies that produce EVs can claim, none of which has anything to do with what’s going on.

Hey, everything I know about the Swedish labour market is what you, IF Metall and the Internet has told me - which doesn’t amount to much in the way of DETAILS.

Feel free to educate. Start by telling us what PRECISELY is in the IF Metall collective agreement documents that Tesla finds not conducive to their business culture, but most other Swedish businesses embrace for their workers. I’d really like to know because if Tesla is a company mistreating their employees, I won’t support them any longer. FYI, long hours, having to work hard, not having a pension plan doesn’t apply. Those are basic requirements of Tesla and nothing applicants aren’t aware of beforehand. Jobs are not playgrounds for lazy, unambitious people, and each of us is responsible for our own money saving and retirement plans.

What I do know is how unions work. I know how they work because they are run by people and I know people. I also know money is involved and I know how money affects people. I also have a pretty good grasp now of how IF Metall works, along with the other unions that have joined them in the blockades and such because ‘actions’. It’s a whole other level of disgusting that even the UAW has never stooped to. Still, I understand you believe it to be right and justified.

So once again, SPECIFICALLY, what is in the collective agreement that Tesla is baulking at? That’s the key to the whole situation.

Note Tesla does have other business locations with labour unions, like Grohmann and Berlin factory. So they aren’t ‘anti-union’ despite what anyone says.

If you want to be educated about the Swedish labour market you'll have to find someone else to do you that favor.

Regardless... Debating something with you is like arguing with a furry fence post. What's the point? I'm under no illusions that you and I will ever find any common ground on this issue.

Others reading this thread can form their own opinions.

 

[navguy12]

She was forced to pay into the system, she’s got every right to get it back out.

And no, that’s not a suggestion that Social Security isn’t a good idea or beneficial to people. It’s simply a fact.

I’ve always wondered why the vast majority of Americans over age 65 (96% as per linked data) are in Medicare.

Especially with all the socialism rhetoric surrounding health care in the US.

Edit, forgot the link: The Elderly Population - Medicare - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[MP3Mike]

I’ve always wondered why the vast majority of Americans over age 65 (96% as per linked data) are in Medicare.

Especially with all the socialism rhetoric surrounding health care in the US.

It is more or less required.

Declining your Medicare Part A and Part B benefits completely is possible, but you are required to withdraw from all of your monthly benefits to do so. This means you can no longer receive Social Security or RRB benefits and must repay anything you have already received when you withdraw from the program.

Unless of course you don't want any benefit from all of the Medicare and SS taxes you have paid. (None of it is free, you pre-paid for it while you were working.)

 

[navguy12]

It is more or less required.



Unless of course you don't want any benefit from all of the Medicare and SS taxes you have paid. (None of it is free, you pre-paid for it while you were working.)

When at a car show in Lincoln Nebraska back in the early 2010s, there was a conversation (in the health care context) at the supper table that essentially was, “I can’t wait until I turn (the chap for some reason said 62) 62 years old”.

Being ignorant of the actual day to day realities of health care in the US, I asked why that was so.

The conversation ebbed and flowed, but essentially what the various couples were describing was health coverage at ”$1,200 a month” going to “under $200 a month with Medicare”.

With an uptake rate of 96%, it must be a good deal.

 

[Krugerrand]

So are the company managers - corrupt and highly unethical. They bribed so that they could stick it to the workers.

Like the slave traders paying off local recruits.

Didn’t read rest of your rant.

Not relevant as I explained in my rant. What was relevant is the millions the union people embezzled from workers.

 

[MP3Mike]

And you apparently don't know how the labour market works in Sweden.

It seems like we do know. IF Metal: "We know you are operating a completely legal business with willing employees, but we don't like that you won't sign a collective agreement with us, and pay our extortion fee, so we are going to try to completely cripple your business by inconveniencing your customers. Yeah, a lot, or all?, of those customers are our, or our sister, union members, but we don't give a rat's ass about them, they can suffer until you cave. So what if they can't get their car repaired, or charge it, and are unable to get to work. That isn't our problem." (At least that is how it looks from the outside.)

The stat thrown around is that 90% of the Swedish workforce is covered by a collective agreement. Surely Tesla doesn't make up all, or even a majority, of the remaining 10%, so why are they going to such extremes? Are they doing the same for all the rest of that 10%, or is just Tesla that is being singled out? (Likely because they think that Elon is the big bad billionaire that can afford to comply with their extortion demands.)

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

...] The stat thrown around is that 90% of the Swedish workforce is covered by a collective agreement. Surely Tesla doesn't make up all, or even a majority, of the remaining 10%, so why are they going to such extremes? Are they doing the same for all the rest of that 10%, or is just Tesla that is being singled out? (Likely because they think that Elon is the big bad billionaire that can afford to comply with their extortion demands.)

A large part of those 10% consists of companies where the owner is the single employee, or other companies that just consists of the owner and his or her's family members. Another sector is apparently some law firms.

In Swedish:

Kollektivavtal: Så ser de vita fläckarna ut - Medlingsinstitutet

I Sverige omfattas 9 av 10 anställda av kollektivavtal. Täckningsgraden är hög, men det finns vissa branscher och typer av företag där förekomsten av kollektivavtal, av olika anledningar, är låg. Professor Anders Kjellberg vid Lunds universitet redogör för hur den svenska kollektivavtalskartan...

www.mi.se

And:
As I'm sure has already been mentioned elsewhere... Among companies of Tesla's size in the sector where Tesla is doing business everyone else has managed to agree on a Collective agreement.

 

[Krugerrand]

If you want to be educated about the Swedish labour market you'll have to find someone else to do you that favor.

Regardless... Debating something with you is like arguing with a furry fence post. What's the point? I'm under no illusions that you and I will ever find any common ground on this issue.

Others reading this thread can form their own opinions.

You had and still have an opportunity to explain what exactly Tesla has done to wrong their employees, and how the collective agreement would rectify the situation.

Everyone on this side of the ocean with firsthand UAW experience have explained extensively how it works here, always has, and always will.

I was and still remain open to factual information about this specific situation but right now it looks like a bunch of chest beating and Tesla isn’t blinking.

 

[heltok]

It seems like we do know. IF Metal: "We know you are operating a completely legal business with willing employees, but we don't like that you won't sign a collective agreement with us, and pay our extortion fee, so we are going to try to completely cripple your business by inconveniencing your customers. Yeah, a lot, or all?, of those customers are our, or our sister, union members, but we don't give a rat's ass about them, they can suffer until you cave. So what if they can't get their car repaired, or charge it, and are unable to get to work. That isn't our problem." (At least that is how it looks from the outside.)

The stat thrown around is that 90% of the Swedish workforce is covered by a collective agreement. Surely Tesla doesn't make up all, or even a majority, of the remaining 10%, so why are they going to such extremes? Are they doing the same for all the rest of that 10%, or is just Tesla that is being singled out? (Likely because they think that Elon is the big bad billionaire that can afford to comply with their extortion demands.)

Even worse. They are crippling the companies that have collective agreement by forcing them to not do business with Tesla. Werksta that stopped servicing Teslas and is now removed for future business from Tesla. Werksta has 750 employees compares to TM Sweden 200.

On their website Werksta says:
We are proud to be the authorized damage repair partner for multiple car brands. One good example is being the authorized damage repair partner for Tesla. Other examples of authorisations includes Mercedes, Audi, VW and Volvo. The technological development in the industry is accelerating and we aim to keep up with it by continuous training and education.

So I assume Tesla is decently large part of their market. Sends a clear message to other auto shops to not sign the collective agreement and risk losing their business with non collective agreement business which are the majority of companies in Sweden. On the free market there will be other actors willing to step in and take the revenue that these companies are giving up. Sure it might hurt Tesla a little, but it will hurt the small guys a lot more.

 

[Krugerrand]

A large part of those 10% consists of companies where the owner is the single employee, or other companies that just consists of the owner and his or her's family members. Another sector is apparently some law firms.

In Swedish:

Kollektivavtal: Så ser de vita fläckarna ut - Medlingsinstitutet

I Sverige omfattas 9 av 10 anställda av kollektivavtal. Täckningsgraden är hög, men det finns vissa branscher och typer av företag där förekomsten av kollektivavtal, av olika anledningar, är låg. Professor Anders Kjellberg vid Lunds universitet redogör för hur den svenska kollektivavtalskartan...

www.mi.se

And:
As I'm sure has already been mentioned elsewhere... Among companies of Tesla's size in the sector where Tesla is doing business everyone else has managed to agree on a Collective agreement.

Thank you for the information.

From where I sit, just because everyone else has agreed isn’t reason enough for Tesla to agree, especially if as Tesla says it interferes with their business culture.

Case in point, cars are and have been sold through dealerships in North America for decades. Tesla decided it didn’t want to do it that way for a number of valid reasons that have been well documented, but I can go over them for you if needs be. As a result several US states fought Tesla, a few still fighting, but in the end Tesla stood their ground and rightly so, and have continued to do business without middlemen shysters.

Just because it’s been done a certain way doesn’t mean it needs to be or should be done that way by everyone, forever.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

...] Case in point, cars are and have been sold through dealerships in North America for decades. Tesla decided it didn’t want to do it that way for a number of valid reasons that have been well documented, but I can go over them for you if needs be. As a result several US states fought Tesla, a few still fighting, but in the end Tesla stood their ground and rightly so, and have continued to do business without middlemen shysters. [...

I am aware. And IF Metall has exactly zero objections regarding Tesla not selling through dealerships. That is not what this is about.

 

[Unclepaul]

Unions are trying to bully Tesla into signing up with their Unions.
In most instances, people do not like bullies, They tend to say they will destroy your company if you do not agree to their demands.

 

[MP3Mike]

I can't find where the information in this post came from, but if it is true, I think it tells me everything I need to know:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1722938175885062630

I ran the picture through a translator:

If Tesla doesn't do what we say we will turn off electricity, water, and Internet

Total isolation awaits Tesla. They have no rights or rights for its actions. Follow [Swedish] practice or leave the country!

That sure makes it seem like the unions are a bunch of thugs and bullies. "I'm sorry you are running a legal business, but if we let you continue to do that other companies might follow, and that would result in our membership, and therefore funding, being reduced. And we can't have that."

Someone else posted something,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1722999995257811090

and here is the translation:

So it sounds like at least some of the Tesla employees feel that Tesla is treating them better than the companies with a collective agreement are treating their employees.

Can anyone really defend what the union is proposing?

 

[Krugerrand]

I am aware. And IF Metall has exactly zero objections regarding Tesla not selling through dealerships. That is not what this is about.

Something is clearly being lost in translation.

I gave you an EXAMPLE of a situation where Tesla doing exactly what everyone else does didn’t work for them. You saying that Tesla has to sign a collective agreement because everyone else does in your country isn’t reason enough for them to do it per the example I gave you.

 

[MP3Mike]

That sure makes it seem like the unions are a bunch of thugs and bullies. "I'm sorry you are running a legal business, but if we let you continue to do that other companies might follow, and that would result in our membership, and therefore funding, being reduced. And we can't have that."

Yep, that is almost exactly what they say their problem is: https://norway.postsen.com/business/147093/Swedish-LO-ready-to-chase-Tesla-from-the-country.html

Gideonsson emphasizes that she does not hope it will come to such a point. She still says that the signaling effect is important. Giving up, according to her, would be tantamount to saying that, for example, Volvo could drop similar arrangements.

So, it doesn't really seem to be about the pay/benefits/working conditions of Tesla employees. (And of course, Volvo absolutely could do that, if they had a backbone.)

 

[KBF]

I am aware. And IF Metall has exactly zero objections regarding Tesla not selling through dealerships. That is not what this is about.

You're telling us what this is not about; let's go positive - what exactly is this about? What's wrong about Tesla's treatment of their employees? I'm trying to follow the discussions here, and I'm always interested in getting multiple perspectives, but I'm missing what positive things IF Metall would actually do/change at Tesla? Can you give specific examples? Otherwise I'm forced to agree with the Americans here... I haven't heard a single tangible benefit apart from "then we'll stop harrassing you"... Or is that some sort of acceptable thing in Swedish culture?

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

You're telling us what this is not about; let's go positive - what exactly is this about? What's wrong about Tesla's treatment of their employees? I'm trying to follow the discussions here, and I'm always interested in getting multiple perspectives, but I'm missing what positive things IF Metall would actually do/change at Tesla? Can you give specific examples? Otherwise I'm forced to agree with the Americans here... I haven't heard a single tangible benefit apart from "then we'll stop harrassing you"... Or is that some sort of acceptable thing in Swedish culture?

This discussion just seems completely pointless. I watched an interview with Ron Baron yesterday, and surprise, surprise... He wasn't fond of the UAW either. And that seems to be kind of the gist of all of this. To me it seems like Baron likes a higher stock price. Me on the other hand is more in the worker compensation camp. And this isn't 'just' about Tesla. It's about every worker in Sweden. And it doesn't stop there. It's about every worker on this planet – including those working the sweat shops in Bangladesh and elsewhere...

I remember the thread below as being a good discussion. I'm pretty sure there are more good points there...

Unions

Tesla's last annual financial report struck a far less welcoming note. It listed the possibility of union activity under "risks" to the business. heh :) I'll admit to not being too knowledgeable on this front, but as an entrepreneur that likes to remain nimble, I shudder at the idea of any...

teslamotorsclub.com