SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
That tweet does not provide a link to a source. A google search doesn't find anything either. It could just as well be something that this "Ekonomigurun" twitter account created in Photoshop or some such.
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Tesla Unionization
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
That tweet does not provide a link to a source. A google search doesn't find anything either. It could just as well be something that this "Ekonomigurun" twitter account created in Photoshop or some such.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
We'll just have to completely disagree on that one as well. Just like we completely disagree on everything(?) else in this thread...
I don't remember if it was you who wrote it or if it was someone else, but at the start of this IF Metall vs. Tesla conflict I recall seeing some post in the Investor thread that went something like this (paraphrasing from memory):
'Ha. That Swedish union seem like a bunch of amateurs compared to the UAW.'
I remember having a little chuckle when I saw that one...
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SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Ok. I'll give you a little 'bonus'...
If Tesla is already paying their employees the equivalent of what's in IF Metall's Collective agreement – a collective agreement that every one else of Tesla's size in this sector in Sweden has been able to agree to, then why can't Tesla just simply agree to it as well?
'No.'
– Why not?
'We don't sign Collective agreements.'
...isn't exactly a stellar argument. Not the way I see it.
Does signing the collective agreement require Tesla to join a employers union?
Like it would here in Finland.
That would mean paying some fee to them.
Also after that all terms of raises etc would be negotiated between employers and employees unions, right? And a single company such as Tesla really doesn't have much say there?
How many people does TM Sweden employ? I'm inclined to think that its not such a big company after all. Roadster Finland employs 83 people, small peanuts really.
Asking @SwedishAdvocate
Like it would here in Finland.
That would mean paying some fee to them.
Also after that all terms of raises etc would be negotiated between employers and employees unions, right? And a single company such as Tesla really doesn't have much say there?
How many people does TM Sweden employ? I'm inclined to think that its not such a big company after all. Roadster Finland employs 83 people, small peanuts really.
Asking @SwedishAdvocate
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
First: Tesla has ~130 mechanics employed in Sweden as of now. And the ~25,000 USD car is on the way... Can't find any figure for the total number of employees today or in 2022, but according to the following source they had a total of 220 employees in 2021. So what could that number be today? 250-300?...
As for the rest of you question, and as I've mentioned elsewhere... I'm not an expert on this. And I'm coming at this from the workers side – not the company's.
I don't know if we characterize it as "an employers union", but yes, I think Tesla would join some Swedish employer's organization.
As for the rest of your question, unfortunately I don't have the exact answer.
EDIT: Doesn't everyone in Finland study Swedish in school?
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Yes, and I've passed an official swedish fluency test to graduate from university.. but these days I've forgotten most of it.. Also we are taught finlandsvenska, not riksvenska..First: Tesla has ~130 mechanics employed in Sweden as of now. And the ~25,000 USD car is on the way... Can't find any figure for the total number of employees today or in 2022, but according to the following source they had a total of 220 employees in 2021. So what could that number be today? 250-300?...
As for the rest of you question, and as I've mentioned elsewhere... I'm not an expert on this. And I'm coming at this from the workers side – not the company's.
I don't know if we characterize it as "an employers union", but yes, I think Tesla would join some Swedish employer's organization.
As for the rest of your question, unfortunately I don't have the exact answer.
EDIT: Doesn't everyone in Finland study Swedish in school?
Labour laws differ a bit here, collective agreements have a legal status, and they bind even employers who are not in any union.
Krugerrand
Meow
Krugerrand
Meow
I’ve tried on a number of occasions; asking those same questions. Never an answer, always talking about something else.You're telling us what this is not about; let's go positive - what exactly is this about? What's wrong about Tesla's treatment of their employees? I'm trying to follow the discussions here, and I'm always interested in getting multiple perspectives, but I'm missing what positive things IF Metall would actually do/change at Tesla? Can you give specific examples? Otherwise I'm forced to agree with the Americans here... I haven't heard a single tangible benefit apart from "then we'll stop harrassing you"... Or is that some sort of acceptable thing in Swedish culture?
When everyone with firsthand experience has literally nothing positive to say about an organization, that should be a flashing neon sign to you that it’s a crap organization. Pretty simple.
Well, of course. He’s an investor and a business man and works for his clients to make them money. Most people who are invested in TSLA, like those of the investment threads, want a higher stock price. Like, duh!
Umm - so are we!!!! Nobody wants to see Tesla workers mistreated and based on all accounts they aren’t being mistreated or they’d just up and quit, vote to join a union like the UAW (which on at least two occasions voted NO), sue Tesla etc…
Yes, it IS ‘just’ about Tesla.
What? You do realize there are millions and millions and millions of workers at companies around the world without union representation and they are completely content. They get paid what they deserve, are happy with work conditions, and aren’t being treated like slaves.
Tesla employees working under a collective agreement in Sweden isn’t going to help workers in Bangladesh. BUT, letting Tesla do Tesla and work towards their mission might.
At least now I understand why you keep going off topic.
You flat out refuse to listen and are now being purposely obtuse.
Tesla employees have already said: we get paid more than the minimum, we get stock options, we’re content with the working conditions, and we do NOT want union representation.
Tesla has clearly said: the collective agreement will hinder their business culture.
What part of any of that do you not understand? I surmise you understand it entirely, you just want Tesla to conform to your ideals.
The more you talk, the more IF Metall and partner unions talk and act like bullies, putting workers and businesses not Tesla at jeopardy, the more clear it becomes that Swedish culture is no better than Bangladesh culture.
You really can't provide one benefit to Swedish Tesla employees for joining the union, can you? Not even a single one?
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
I have seen reports in Swedish Public Service TV and the Union's own newspaper. But those interviewed have all been anonymous.
From memory:
From Swedish Public Service TV:
John Doe#1: X in management has said that employees that goes on strike will somehow have their employment terminated within approx. three months.
John Doe#2: X in management has said that the stock compensation might get revoked if #2 joins the strike. The value of said stock compensation was not specified in this case. In the union's paper an amount of ~8,000 USD has been mentioned. But like I said – I do not know the amount the stock compensation was worth in this specific case.
From the union's paper:
John Doe#X: Tesla does not adhere to the correct safety procedure when working with some kind of adhesive. I don't remember what kind of part of a car that adhesive was applied to.
John Doe#Y: There are X amount of periods of time when there is a very strong pressure from management to put in unpaid overtime.
John Doe#Z: Tesla has some kind of time constrained way of administering work for mechanics. Similar ways of administering work are not uncommon in the sector. But. Mechanics allegedly have max 1 hour to diagnose a malfunction. And according to #Z that is not always enough... That results in cars being handed back to customers where the problem hasn't been fixed. Mechanics have zero say in this. This comes directly from Swedish management on that site. And the management in turned is forced from their senior management to work this way, otherwise the shop management will get crap for not meeting Tesla's internal productivity goals. And: This has also been corroborated by members on the Swedish Tesla forum (Tesla Club Sweden) that have had cars handed back to them where one or several problems with their cars have not been fixed.
John Doe#Å: Some things mechanics are tasked with have a set amount of time for completion. The task must be completed within that time. According to #Å there are several tasks that are impossible to complete within set time. The union has a method for adjusting tasks like these that has been applied at other similar companies many, many times. That way a reasonable amount of time for a task can be agreed upon by all.
And that's not all. Tesla allegedly also has some kind of 1-5 rating system for mechanics that has received critique coupled to the time constraints mentioned above. That rating system does of course affect pay (and probably other things as well). But I don't really remember much more than that.
So... There you have a near infinite amount of benefits to having the union involved as I see it.
Happy now?...
And yes of course!
This is all anecdotal.
I nor you nor anyone else except for those that are directly involved know how much of the above is true.
But we know this is true:
No-one is perfect. Tesla is surely not perfect either.
In the aviation industry they use something called the Swiss Cheese Model.
I happen to be a proponent of that way of thinking. And the union will add at least one extra layer of protection (in line with the Swiss Cheese Model way of thinking) for everyone working at Tesla.
That's my preferred way of running a business like a car repair shop or a car factory.
But... I'm guessing that you and I will complete disagree on everything I've mentioned above regardless...
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SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
So what European market will Tesla exit next? Germany? What would Tesla exiting Sweden mean for Tesla car sales in Europe when everyone now knows that Tesla could leave any European country at any time? What will it do to the value of existing customers cars?...
EDIT: And any continued discussion with the furry kitten is of course completely pointless. I already learned that some 9 years ago in the other union thread, so why did I even bother...
Unions
Tesla's last annual financial report struck a far less welcoming note. It listed the possibility of union activity under "risks" to the business. heh :) I'll admit to not being too knowledgeable on this front, but as an entrepreneur that likes to remain nimble, I shudder at the idea of any...
teslamotorsclub.com
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First, let me say that I think that unions have some serious benefits. They are (nominally) big on union member safety; big on slowing down or stopping bizarre, strange behavior on the part of individuals in management that would otherwise not be halted; and attempt to make sure that union members are paid a living wage.
But they have their downsides as well. First and foremost: Every union that I either belonged to or was aware of was Really Big on longevity, often to the exclusion of all else:
But it's very understandable why, according to $RANDOM news reports, why working at Tesla is so desirable. Getting paid for good performance? Check. Stock grants, based upon performance? Check. Promotions based upon performance? Check. If one is a smart cookie, why would one go to work at some stuck-in-the-mud union where one may as well lobotomize one's brain, for all the good that that brain might do one?
What I'm reporting upon is how, unfortunately, unions tend to work in the U.S.. Perhaps unions in the EU have rules and laws that prevent some of the bad abuses listed above.
But, if such rules and laws aren't in evidence, then unions are, pretty much, a mixed bag.
But they have their downsides as well. First and foremost: Every union that I either belonged to or was aware of was Really Big on longevity, often to the exclusion of all else:
- Poor performance doesn't matter if the union member has seniority. There are teachers' unions in the U.S. where, with teachers accused of things like rape, theft, and horrible teaching cannot be fired. I kid you not, there are classrooms in NYC where teachers who are accused of crimes like this sit, no children around, for years before the Union/Management procedures eventually get a teacher dismissed.
- Good performance by a union member is never rewarded. The Union Is In Charge of Member's Pay During Negotiation With Management and unions strongly favor How Long A Worker Has Been A Member Of The Union (and possibly, the job title) as the only criterion as to pay level. Got a worker who is gifted, smart, and effective? May as well give them a dunce cap and tell them to cool it down, "You're making the rest of us look bad." I wish I was making this up, but my father, an involuntary member of a university teachers' union, was given a bonus by the regents of the university for some exemplary work that improved the university's reputation and physical plant . And was promptly hauled into court by the union, which, amongst other things, demanded that everybody get a bonus, not just my dad. (It took about ten years for the suit to be dismissed.)
- As others have pointed out, the union management is not exactly aligned with the workers' best interests: The negotiations are aligned for the union mangement's best interests. As a youth, I belonged to a union that ran a grocery store. Beyond donating my first and most of my second paycheck to the union's entrance fee, I was stunned to find out, in the union contract (which, at 16, I actually read) that there was a no strike clause in that contract.
But it's very understandable why, according to $RANDOM news reports, why working at Tesla is so desirable. Getting paid for good performance? Check. Stock grants, based upon performance? Check. Promotions based upon performance? Check. If one is a smart cookie, why would one go to work at some stuck-in-the-mud union where one may as well lobotomize one's brain, for all the good that that brain might do one?
What I'm reporting upon is how, unfortunately, unions tend to work in the U.S.. Perhaps unions in the EU have rules and laws that prevent some of the bad abuses listed above.
But, if such rules and laws aren't in evidence, then unions are, pretty much, a mixed bag.
Krugerrand
Meow
It’s absolutely normal practice (here) to rate employees on a scale as part of their performance review. That rating absolutely affects their bonuses. As it should. Not all employees are equal in their talents, abilities , execution, ambitions, attendance, work quality etc… and therefore they don’t deserve to have the same amount of bonuses. Performance reviews allow employees to know where they are excelling in their job, and where they have room for improvement. Additionally, often times employees get to review their managers in the same way.I have seen reports in Swedish Public Service TV and the Union's own newspaper. But those interviewed have all been anonymous.
From memory:
From Swedish Public Service TV:
John Doe#1: X in management has said that employees that goes on strike will somehow have their employment terminated within approx. three months.
John Doe#2: X in management has said that the stock compensation might get revoked if #2 joins the strike.
From the unions paper:
John Doe#X: Tesla does not adhere to the correct safety procedure when working with some kind of adhesive. I don't remember what kind of part of a car that adhesive was applied to.
John Doe#Y: There are X amount of periods when there is a very strong pressure from management to put in unpaid overtime.
John Doe#Z: Tesla has some kind of time constrained way of administering work for mechanics. Similar ways of administering work are not uncommon in the sector. But. Mechanics allegedly have max 1 hour to diagnose a malfunction. And according to #Z that is not always enough... That results in cars being handed back to customers where the problem hasn't been fixed. Mechanics have zero say in this. This comes directly from Swedish management on that site. And the management in turned is forced from their senior management to work this way, otherwise the shop management will get crap for not meeting Tesla's internal productivity goals. And: This has also been corroborated by members on the Swedish Tesla forum (Tesla Club Sweden) that have had cars handed back to them where one or several problems with their cars have not been fixed.
John Doe#Å: Some things mechanics are tasked with have a set amount of time for completion. The task must be completed within that time. According to #Å there are several tasks that are impossible to complete within set time. The union has a method for adjusting tasks like these that has been applied at other similar companies many, many times. That way a reasonable amount of time for a task can be agreed upon by all.
And that's not all. Tesla allegedly also has some kind of 1-5 rating system for mechanics that has received critique coupled to the time constraints mentioned above. That rating system does of course affect pay (and probably other things as well). But I don't really remember much more than that.
So... There you have a near infinite amount of benefits to having the union involved as I see it.
Happy now?...
And yes of course!
This is all anecdotal.
I nor you nor anyone else except for those that are directly involved know how much of the above is true.
But we know this is true:
No-one is perfect. Tesla is surely not perfect either.
In the aviation industry they use something called the Swiss Cheese Model.
I happen to be a proponent of that way of thinking. And the union will add at least one extra layer of protection (in line with the Swiss Cheese Model way of thinking) for everyone working at Tesla.
That's my preferred way of running a business like a car repair shop or a car factory.
But... I'm guessing that you and I will complete disagree on everything I've mentioned above regardless...
My father was a Class A licensed diesel mechanic his whole career. Some of the things these mechanics are complaining about are
worthy. Since I don’t know any of these people personally, I’ve no idea if they’re lollygagging or suck at their job, have a bad manager, or really working hard, efficiently, and quickly and have valid claims. Unknown. I do know they can all go over their manager’s head all the way up to Elon if needs be and they aren’t getting the managerial support or understanding they need. That’s company policy.
Krugerrand
Meow
That’s twice now. Knock it off.So what European market will Tesla exit next? Germany? What would Tesla exiting Sweden mean for Tesla car sales in Europe when everyone now knows that Tesla could leave any European country at any time? What will it do to the value of existing customers cars?...
EDIT: And any continued discussion with the furry kitten is of course completely pointless. I already learned that some 9 years ago in the other union thread, so why did I even bother...
Unions
Tesla's last annual financial report struck a far less welcoming note. It listed the possibility of union activity under "risks" to the business. heh :) I'll admit to not being too knowledgeable on this front, but as an entrepreneur that likes to remain nimble, I shudder at the idea of any...
Imagine that, if you don't show up for work for three months you might have your employment terminated...
Again, if you don't meet the terms for your stock compensation bonus, why would you be surprised that you don't get it? The whole point of it is to reward good employees/performance, not standing around holding strike signs. (Though from the one interview I saw the employees on strike don't even do that, I thought he said he was just bored sitting around at home. Getting paid 130% of your salary to sit at home seems like a good deal...)
You'll notice that I said I tried to find a source, and qualified my statement with a "if it is true".
But from everything I see, I absolutely believe it is true.
Take this source: https://norway.postsen.com/business/147093/Swedish-LO-ready-to-chase-Tesla-from-the-country.html
They really are going all in: sign an agreement with us or leave.
Probably destroy them. But you can't blame Tesla for that. You would have to blame the union for driving a perfectly legal business out of the country.
Wow.
You sure sound like a union shill. The fact that the union isn't making statements like "If we get this collective agreement on average the Tesla employees will get a 10% raise, 5 extra vacation days a year, and better insurance that covers x that they don't have now." makes me think that they don't have much benefit to offer.
And I'm not anti-union. I am a dues paying member of a union. But if my union started pulling the stunts that the unions there are pulling I would talk to them to try to get them to clean up their act and if they refused I would end my membership and stop paying dues. (I would still get most of the benefits of the union contract.) I even worked with my union to try to unionize another company. But we couldn't get enough of the employees of that company interested in joining. (The company paid/treated their employees well enough that they didn't want major change and to have to pay dues.) In the end, years later, the company I work for ending up buying that company, which brought all of the, non-management, employees under our union contract, but very few of them signed up to be dues paying members. (A couple even quit because they didn't want anything to do with a union.)
I wrote my thoughts before:
Look at what Tesla have not done the last few weeks. They have not badmouthed the union. They have not not taken any contra measures. They are playing within the law, trying their best to do honest work within the hostile environment they are facing. Clearly they intend to be professional and do their best to service their customers. It will be a bit messy the first few weeks as Tesla has to redirect their business from unionized auto workshops to un-unionized workshops, but a few months later those businesses will be booming and can hire the unionized workers that are being laid off:
Got that information from an employee at Werkstad himself when I was there. He was one of those notified. He said, unconfirmed, that Werkstad is losing about 20 million a week on this strike as Tesla was by far their biggest customer. It remains to be seen if it will appear in the media soon.
To me most of those anecdotes sound like things that would be illegal anyway, union or not?I have seen reports in Swedish Public Service TV and the Union's own newspaper. But those interviewed have all been anonymous.
From memory:
From Swedish Public Service TV:
John Doe#1: X in management has said that employees that goes on strike will somehow have their employment terminated within approx. three months.
John Doe#2: X in management has said that the stock compensation might get revoked if #2 joins the strike. The value of said stock compensation was not specified in this case. In the union's paper an amount of ~8,000 USD has been mentioned. But like I said – I do not know the amount the stock compensation was worth in this specific case.
From the union's paper:
John Doe#X: Tesla does not adhere to the correct safety procedure when working with some kind of adhesive. I don't remember what kind of part of a car that adhesive was applied to.
John Doe#Y: There are X amount of periods of time when there is a very strong pressure from management to put in unpaid overtime.
John Doe#Z: Tesla has some kind of time constrained way of administering work for mechanics. Similar ways of administering work are not uncommon in the sector. But. Mechanics allegedly have max 1 hour to diagnose a malfunction. And according to #Z that is not always enough... That results in cars being handed back to customers where the problem hasn't been fixed. Mechanics have zero say in this. This comes directly from Swedish management on that site. And the management in turned is forced from their senior management to work this way, otherwise the shop management will get crap for not meeting Tesla's internal productivity goals. And: This has also been corroborated by members on the Swedish Tesla forum (Tesla Club Sweden) that have had cars handed back to them where one or several problems with their cars have not been fixed.
John Doe#Å: Some things mechanics are tasked with have a set amount of time for completion. The task must be completed within that time. According to #Å there are several tasks that are impossible to complete within set time. The union has a method for adjusting tasks like these that has been applied at other similar companies many, many times. That way a reasonable amount of time for a task can be agreed upon by all.
And that's not all. Tesla allegedly also has some kind of 1-5 rating system for mechanics that has received critique coupled to the time constraints mentioned above. That rating system does of course affect pay (and probably other things as well). But I don't really remember much more than that.
So... There you have a near infinite amount of benefits to having the union involved as I see it.
Happy now?...
And yes of course!
This is all anecdotal.
I nor you nor anyone else except for those that are directly involved know how much of the above is true.
But we know this is true:
No-one is perfect. Tesla is surely not perfect either.
In the aviation industry they use something called the Swiss Cheese Model.
I happen to be a proponent of that way of thinking. And the union will add at least one extra layer of protection (in line with the Swiss Cheese Model way of thinking) for everyone working at Tesla.
That's my preferred way of running a business like a car repair shop or a car factory.
But... I'm guessing that you and I will complete disagree on everything I've mentioned above regardless...
Fire a worker for being on strike? Good luck with that, prepare to pay 12 months salary or more as compensation..
I have seen mechanics here go from Porsche to work for Tesla.. if it was really that bad why would they work there? I can imagine it gets busy, there's too many cars to work on and not enough people..
main parking lot of Tesla Helsinki is a disgrace.. its absolutely packed with cars waiting for repairs, spare parts take a long time.. last winter I saw some customer cars practically buried in snow there.. like half a meter of snow..
Sales are in the same building.. not a very good look for sales..
A friend who works for Tesla here, told me that it's absolutely the IF Metal that wants this collective agreement. Not Tesla employees.
