Tesla Vision

[GeorgeSymonds]

It didn't take long to try and change the subject

Why is Tesla Vision and parking "sensors" so poor? It's nothing to do with UNECE

The defence of rubbish tesla vision parking is not to talk about higher order driving capabilities that may or may not be permitted due to UNECE.

Those wishing to defend Tesla, and who talk about the need for "constructive criticism" as if the complaints aren't, please answer this simple question or concede they are rubbish.

It's hard to get excited about self driving when the car can't tell if its 10 cm or 3m away from another object

 

[GRiLLA]

It didn't take long to try and change the subject

Why is Tesla Vision and parking "sensors" so poor? It's nothing to do with UNECE

The defence of rubbish tesla vision parking is not to talk about higher order driving capabilities that may or may not be permitted due to UNECE.

Those wishing to defend Tesla, and who talk about the need for "constructive criticism" as if the complaints aren't, please answer this simple question or concede they are rubbish.

It's hard to get excited about self driving when the car can't tell if its 10 cm or 3m away from another object

I think that's because no one seems to disagree that Tesla Vision isn't equivalent to USS, so this would be a one post conversation?

I also agree that the dry wiping without override is irritating, and the performance of auto wipers in the dark is unacceptable.

The conversation moved on to lack of progress on FSD some way back, like most threads on here.

 

[Jason71]

It didn't take long to try and change the subject

Why is Tesla Vision and parking "sensors" so poor? It's nothing to do with UNECE

The defence of rubbish tesla vision parking is not to talk about higher order driving capabilities that may or may not be permitted due to UNECE.

Those wishing to defend Tesla, and who talk about the need for "constructive criticism" as if the complaints aren't, please answer this simple question or concede they are rubbish.

It's hard to get excited about self driving when the car can't tell if its 10 cm or 3m away from another object

So to summarise

Poor Tesla Vision is a consequence of Tesla's poor vision

 

[Durzel]

Sorry, no you are wrong in your premise.

Drive Pilot maybe allowed in Germany, not the UK. We have our own laws now and although UNECE has a set of regulations that Drive Pilot fits into it has not been approved in the UK, our laws would require it to be added to a list approved by the Secretary of State for Transport, but they won't because they don't have a testing regime in the UK for this yet.

That's why I said "and will presumably bring this out in the UK in due course". "Due course" can include law changes, like the one that permitted Blue Cruise. I have considerably more confidence that Drive Pilot or some other system will be operational on UK roads before FSD Beta is.

Blue Cruise is no different to what we have in Tesla now, it just replaces the need to touch the wheel to indicate presence with a camera that is monitoring you. This is not a more advanced technology, Tesla even has it by some reports, and I certainly imagine it's more irritating than what we have.

We have different understandings of what the word "different" means, it seems. BlueCruise lets you do lane-keeping without touching the wheel. Tesla AP doesn't. It's open to debate whether that means its more advanced or not. If it's using an interior camera (which 3/Y Teslas also have, by the way) to monitor attentiveness rather than a steering wheel torque nag every 10 seconds, maybe one would argue it's more advanced?

Do you want Tesla to have a key in order to extend the range of summon? The issue is that UNECE allows these features if the driver is within a specific range, that's not possible to measure accurately enough with Bluetooth connections to mobile phones or bluetooth keys, so Tesla have to err on the side of caution. Interestingly this is likely to be something that the Highland Model 3 might change as we know it has the UWB hardware that allows a much more accurate ranging if the phone also has UWB.

I'm well aware that the reason Tesla can't do the same as Hyundai or Kia is because they don't provide an equivalent fob. They could though, that's my point. Perhaps purchasing EAP/FSD should come with a suitable fob and customised software that provides actual, functional Summon technology ala Hyundai/Kia, rather than the "walk the dog at 1mph in arms reach" that we get. It would certainly be nice to actually get something for that £3,400+ outlay. Again, this won't happen because there is no development effort put in for Europe, all we get is regression, things turned off.

As your premise is wrong, the rest is redundant.

If I were being charitable I would say that you seem to have a glass half full attitude at all times regarding Tesla, whereas I probably have the opposite, nearly 4 years in.

 

[Leytonstone]

I think that's because no one seems to disagree that Tesla Vision isn't equivalent to USS, so this would be a one post conversation?

The conversation isn't about equivalence but inadequacy. Looking at the company's patent, Estimating object properties using visual image data, something that stands out is this single solitary nod to the perils of being outdoors:

“In various embodiments, radar sensors are able to capture surrounding detail despite heavy rain, fog, dust, and other vehicles.”

A tiny but important concession which suggests Tesla Vision is a functional dead end and reputational deep hole. Its underperformance has nothing to do with legislation or mission prioritising and everything to do with the unavoidable, ever present, Independence Day mothership-sized shortcoming that they've known about from the start and yet would have you believe is FINR.

OK so maybe not next release but the release after that, definitely the one after that.

Spoiler: never.

 

[GRiLLA]

That's why I said "and will presumably bring this out in the UK in due course". "Due course" can include law changes, like the one that permitted Blue Cruise. I have considerably more confidence that Drive Pilot or some other system will be operational on UK roads before FSD Beta is.


We have different understandings of what the word "different" means, it seems. BlueCruise lets you do lane-keeping without touching the wheel. Tesla AP doesn't. It's open to debate whether that means its more advanced or not. If it's using an interior camera (which 3/Y Teslas also have, by the way) to monitor attentiveness rather than a steering wheel torque nag every 10 seconds, maybe one would argue it's more advanced?


I'm well aware that the reason Tesla can't do the same as Hyundai or Kia is because they don't provide an equivalent fob. They could though, that's my point. Perhaps purchasing EAP/FSD should come with a suitable fob and customised software that provides actual, functional Summon technology ala Hyundai/Kia, rather than the "walk the dog at 1mph in arms reach" that we get. It would certainly be nice to actually get something for that £3,400+ outlay. Again, this won't happen because there is no development effort put in for Europe, all we get is regression, things turned off.


If I were being charitable I would say that you seem to have a glass half full attitude at all times regarding Tesla, whereas I probably have the opposite, nearly 4 years in.

There's no law change that's allowed Blue Cruise, the requirement has always been to detect the driver is paying attention and able to take over. Tesla did that using the wheel, Ford are doing it using a camera, it's the same thing. The solution and user experience seem better to me, I've seen enough videos where people are being constantly nagged about where their eyes are looking, often incorrectly, to know it's currently a worse solution. It's not more advanced, it's just different.

I think people get quickly confused by hardware vs software. Tesla can change the software of the car but upgrading hardware on already sold cars is not realistic. Model 3 and Y keys work via Bluetooth, no software update can make that a different standard. UWB is the solution coming on the next revision, new hardware in the car that's capable of ranging devices more accurately, but will only work with a subset of mobile phones that support UWB for themselves. Realistically a year ago it would be pointless as too few people have UWB capable phones, even when highland comes out I bet they won't find most users are capable. Use the phone as a key is a pretty fundamental part of the Tesla experience, most would prioritise that above Summon, it's not realistic to suggest that people should be given hardware to make a specific feature work.

Yes, I proudly live my whole life considering glasses half-full, you should try it, innovation would never happen if everyone constantly considered everything half-empty.

 

[Pagemakers]

Before my radar sensors were turned off about a year ago (I’m sure they were in my case), I could drive down the motorway and if a vehicle in the distance was going much slower my car would approach and slow down from a distance. Now in the same scenario my car ploughs on and in a very short distance comes to an abrupt slow down. It’s uncomfortable for the driver and much more so for the unsuspecting passengers. Vision-only cannot judge rate of change well.

On the motorway in stop start traffic, before it was great. Now it’s VERY slow to accelerate away and very late to brake, again causing a stressful, uncomfortable ride.

If you’ve never had autopilot a 12-18 months ago, you can’t compare. To me the difference is night and day.

When the weather was lousy, autopilot performed admirably. Wipers weren’t required, nor were auto-lights and for YEARS I didn’t have any issues.

Vision-only came along and I’ve now got wipers scratching across dry windscreens, high beams pissing off drivers in front of me. Speed limit warnings in poor-ish weather. NOAP dropping out as soon as it rains and the icing on the cake is the un-commanded braking and hesitancy. Oh and the red warning of death when it thinks a pedestrian on the pavement is about to be killed by me on the road.

 

[GRiLLA]

The conversation isn't about equivalence but inadequacy. Looking at the company's patent, Estimating object properties using visual image data, something that stands out is this single solitary nod to the perils of being outdoors:

“In various embodiments, radar sensors are able to capture surrounding detail despite heavy rain, fog, dust, and other vehicles.”

A tiny but important concession which suggests Tesla Vision is a functional dead end and reputational deep hole. Its underperformance has nothing to do with legislation or mission prioritising and everything to do with the unavoidable, ever present, Independence Day mothership-sized shortcoming that they've known about from the start and yet would have you believe is FINR.

OK so maybe not next release but the release after that, definitely the one after that.

Spoiler: never.

Well, I used to have a Model 3 with radar, now I have a Model 3 without radar, and I can personally confirm that removing radar hasn't significantly changed the EAP experience.

Your assertion is based on the false logic that people would be safe to drive on radar data alone despite low vision.

 

[Ashdeman]

Supposedly improvements to vision based park assist in FSD 11.4.8 patch notes. No idea how long it will take before we see the "16%" improvement over here in the UK...

 

[Zilla91]

Tesla did that using the wheel, Ford are doing it using a camera, it's the same thing.

No it's not

 

[Pagemakers]

Well, I used to have a Model 3 with radar, now I have a Model 3 without radar, and I can personally confirm that removing radar hasn't significantly changed the EAP experience.

I guess you are talking about 2 different cars?

In my case when radar was turned off on my car I noticed a huge difference in performance.

 

[spdpsba]

In my case when radar was turned off on my car I noticed a huge difference in performance.

I didn’t in my car and after reading your previous post I think you should book your car in for a service request. That’s a sincere advice and I don’t get any stop start kind of stuff when AP or TACC is on and I have not noticed any problem with my car since radar was turned off.

 

[Pagemakers]

I didn’t in my car and after reading your previous post I think you should book your car in for a service request. That’s a sincere advice and I don’t get any stop start kind of stuff when AP or TACC is on and I have not noticed any problem with my car since radar was turned off.

Tesla came out a couple of weeks ago and checked my vehicle and to quote the engineer he said it was so bad on his car (a younger model 3) that he never uses autopilot anymore.

My cameras were re-calibrated and he said my car is performing as it should (under the circumstances) and the problems were caused by a software update and I will just have to wait for them to improve the software.

He also said with software updates it’s 2 steps forwards and 1, 2 or 3 steps back.

Totally agree with his findings.

 

[Js1977]

Tesla came out a couple of weeks ago and checked my vehicle and to quote the engineer he said it was so bad on his car (a younger model 3) that he never uses autopilot anymore.

My cameras were re-calibrated and he said my car is performing as it should (under the circumstances) and the problems were caused by a software update and I will just have to wait for them to improve the software.

He also said with software updates it’s 2 steps forwards and 1, 2 or 3 steps back.

Totally agree with his findings.

As the devils advocate I say that some might agree and some might think your engineer was very overly appeasing.

 

[Drew57]

If I were being charitable I would say that you seem to have a glass half full attitude at all times regarding Tesla, whereas I probably have the opposite, nearly 4 years in.

Although you were replying to another poster, I think that may be at the root of many of the discussions here.

Yes, I am more of a glass half full sort of a person & try to look for the best in life so on that basis I still regard both Teslas I have owned as the best cars overall that I've driven. Yes I'm saddened by the inadequacies of the wipers, ussless sensors, simple matrix lights, easily kerbed alloys and the tendency for Tesla to gradually move everything towards auto control. However I've adapted to all of these and accept the compromises they bring, all can be frustrating but none completely ruin my overall experience. My wife also likes these cars and she can be extremely critical.

I mostly reverse park, keep the rear camera clean, only have AP (which I use a lot these days) and am even OK with the (sometimes) harsh suspension.

Would I like these things to be as effective as on other cars, of course but after more than four years I'm still happy. My attitude towards Tesla the company or its CEO is another matter but for now that does not spoil the overall experience.

 

[Pagemakers]

I’d be more than happy to give anybody a ride in my car on the M6 at 70mph in the fast lane and let you report your findings on this forum. PM if you’d like a meet up!!

 

[Drew57]

I’d be more than happy to give anybody a ride in my car on the M6 at 70mph in the fast lane and let you report your findings on this forum. PM if you’d like a meet up!!

If we did it sounds like either your car might kill us or you (if we disagreed)!

 

[Pagemakers]

If we did it sounds like either your car might kill us or you (if we disagreed)!

Haha!

I’m no killer.

 

[Js1977]

View attachment 991551
I’d be more than happy to give anybody a ride in my car on the M6 at 70mph in the fast lane and let you report your findings on this forum. PM if you’d like a meet up!!

Appeasing for sure.

I Personally, I would not have autopilot on the overtaking lane... just saying...

 

[Js1977]

If we did it sounds like either your car might kill us or you (if we disagreed)!

You owe me a sip of wine