Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]

[MexiCanuck]

I consider if I bought a computer and the retailer said it had Windows 10. If I started using the computer, then got an onscreen message that the Windows 10 had not been been properly authorized, I would go back to the shop that sold the computer to me, not to MicroSoft.

It seems to me that this is similar.

It is well-known that when Tesla buys or accepts a used Tesla as trade-in it disables electronic options. My suspicion is that whoever bought the car from Tesla knew they were buying the car without FSD. They then sold the car as a car with FSD.

I think your recourse would be with the seller of the car, not the manufacturer of the car.

 

[swegman]

Do I have to sue the dealer in his state, or I can do in mine?

You should first read each and every document you executed between you and the seller (non-Tesla dealer) to see whether it specifies how to resolve disputes (eg, whether disputes are to be resolved by arbitration or some other means) and if it specifies where disputes are to be filed.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Dieselgate settlement opportunity (and outcome) was in the $billions due to the details and size of the affected class.

This case? Not so much.

Not saying it’s impossible but the potential class size is relatively small and the max damages are a tiny fraction vs. Dieselgate.

Concur 100%.

This case is more about publicity for the legal firm in perhaps getting to a precedent-setting settlement?

Unless, of course, the size of the class gets really big in the years ahead . . . .

 

[What Gas]

I’m not an attorney, but for ICE vehicles whatever package came with the original car follows the car...not the owner. I would think it would be the same for an EV.

Tesla’s pulling same game with downgrading the battery capacity without notifying owners. It’s called batterygrate and their is a class action suite and NHTSB is investigating Tesla.

While I really enjoy my EV, I will never buy another car from Tesla. Competition to Tesla is around the corner....and hopefully with better customer service.

 

[brkaus]

I’m not an attorney, but for ICE vehicles whatever package came with the original car follows the car...not the owner. I would think it would be the same for an EV.

And fancy rims always stayed on the car? The same floor mats? Anyone who owns the car can modify it before they resell it.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

And fancy rims always stayed on the car? The same floor mats? Anyone who owns the car can modify it before they resell it.

If we have the facts correct from the OP, I feel this is far different.

The car HAD FSD--someone paid for it. They paid a lot of money for it.

Tesla REMOVED it after-the-fact, via an OTA process by which they can "steal" things that were already paid for.

This is wrong, very, very wrong.

Someone at middle management made this call as Elon is far too smart to have done so, but Elon needs to fix this stat.

 

[brkaus]

If we have the facts correct from the OP, I feel this is far different.

The car HAD FSD--someone paid for it. They paid a lot of money for it.

Tesla REMOVED it after-the-fact, via an OTA process by which they can "steal" things that were already paid for.

This is wrong, very, very wrong.

Someone at middle management made this call as Elon is far too smart to have done so, but Elon needs to fix this stat.

Correct. After the fact bad. But what “what gas” said, anything with the car stays with the car and is always with the car is just not true.

 

[What Gas]

And fancy rims always stayed on the car? The same floor mats? Anyone who owns the car can modify it before they resell it.

I agree you have a valid point. However, if I understood correctly, Tesla is reselling a car I would think it would be with all the parts/options it originally had.

 

[VT_EE]

All,
This threat would not exist if Tesla left the car AS-IS after it was sold to 3rd dealership!
I made a decision to buy this particular vehicle based on knowledge and visual representation (I knew that if the Autopilot menu has Summon and NoA it is EAP, and pictures published by the dealer proved it)
View attachment 507059

Yes, I might not properly use terms FSD and FSDC since Tesla changed how they call those feature several times as well as what is included.
EAP was $4K and was a prerequisite to pay $3K more for FSD.

In my opinion, FSD always was a promise to enable it once it is legal and to get your car up to par for this ability (whatever it takes -replace the hardware, update software, etc.) This promise would put Tesla into a very interesting and expensive position.

According to service center employees and mobile tech, I would be downgraded to basic AP anyway once the ownership transferred to my name. This what Tesla quietly does from mid-2018

Tesla stated several times that all purchased options are tied to VIN and cannot be removed. I even tried to purchase a used car directly from tesla website and asked to remove FSD and was told "Unfortunately, this cannot be done since this feature is tied to the VIN"
So, Tesla changes the story to whatever will bring more money into the house.

For clarification: you were informed verbally that FSD was no longer enabled prior to you picking up (I.e. completing the sale) the vehicle. Correct?

 

[Becker]

I would think we should start informing the FTC on the nonsense Tesla is doing


FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
Headquarters
Federal Trade Commission
600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20580
Telephone: (202) 326-2222

 

[brkaus]

I agree you have a valid point. However, if I understood correctly, Tesla is reselling a car I would think it would be with all the parts/options it originally had.

This particular car was a lease return or trade that they decided wasn’t something they wanted to sell themselves so they put it up for wholesale auction.

 

[RDoc]

If you want to sue Tesla, go ahead. OTOH, they've got a lot more money than you, so good luck. That's what they're counting on.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Tesla has no relationship with the OP. The OP did not buy the car from Tesla but rather from a third party non-Tesla dealers. The legal relationship is between the OP and the non-Tesla dealer. That is why I asked what representations (if any) the non-Tesla dealer made and that if any representations were made, he should be seeking redress from that non-Tesla dealer and not Tesla.

The non-Tesla dealer may (or may nit) have some legal recourse against Tesla. However, I suspect that the non-Tesla dealer that bought the car at auction likely bought it as is, knowing Tesla’s policies with respect to how Tesla treats features available on auctioned cars purchased from Tesla. It’s no secret what Tesla does to such cars, and the non-Tesla dealer will likely be held by a court to a higher standard than a consumer would be.

The bottom line is that we all know Tesla is doing whatever it can to maximize its bottom line. When buying a used Tesla from a non-Tesla dealer it is imperative that the buyer do a complete and thorough research on the vehicle and get in writing from the non-Tesla dealer as to each and every feature that will be in the car. The Monroney sheet can only be relied upon by the original purchaser of the car as to the features on the car.

I don't believe Tesla go back and actually remove a feature after they make a sale, even if they intended to do it before the sale and sold it as not having the feature. There are many examples of sellers selling cars as some lower trim level than what they are. They can't go back after the sale and charge more because they only realized the car was worth more after the sale. Tesla's trying to do the opposite, remove a feature they forgot to remove at the time of the sale, which I believe is also not legal, although it may be a grey area too.

 

[swegman]

I don't believe Tesla go back and actually remove a feature after they make a sale, even if they intended to do it before the sale and sold it as not having the feature. There are many examples of sellers selling cars as some lower trim level than what they are. They can't go back after the sale and charge more because they only realized the car was worth more after the sale. Tesla's trying to do the opposite, remove a feature they forgot to remove at the time of the sale, which I believe is also not legal, although it may be a grey area too.

If you go through this long thread, you will see that Tesla downgraded the features of the car while it was still owned by the non-Tesla dealer (that is, after the OP said he examined the car but before he signed the purchase papers and paid for the car).

The OP says the non-Tesla dealer updated the firmware before he executed the purchase documents, noted that Summon and NoA had disappeared and told the OP that it must be a glitch. Assuming all this is correct and the non-Tesla dealer truly believed the car to properly have EAP and FSD (that is, there was no reason for the non-Tesla dealer to think otherwise), it should have raised a red flag for the non-Tesla dealer to investigate and not brush it off. Further, when the OP was told the features had disappeared by the non-Tesla dealer, he should not have completed the transaction (execute purchase documents and pay for the car) without at least making his own investigation and not relying on an assertion by the non-Tesla dealer that it was likely a glitch. There were at least two points in time where the matter could have been looked into before completing the purchase, which could have prevented the situation the OP is in now.

I am not discussing whether Tesla is right or wrong to have removed features when this particular car was owned by the non-Tesla dealer (that being the point in time the action by Tesla occurred according to the OP), but that a little due diligence could have avoided the present situation. Had the OP inquired with Tesla as to why the features were gone, he may have been told the features were intentionally removed per Tesla’s policy. He could then have made an informed decision whether to still buy that car or look for another car.

 

[swegman]

One other thing. Many statements have been made by the OP in this thread with respect to the timeline of events. Should the OP decide to sue the non-Tesla dealer and/or Tesla, keep in mind that the contents of this thread is discoverable.

 

[Dutchie]

I’m retired now, but my billing rate 7 years ago was $450/hr. Legal fees to the OP will far outstrip the cost of EAP and FSD in short order. We would tell clients not to even think about litigation unless they were willing to spend $1M minimum. Seven years later I’m certain that minimum dollar amount is even higher.

Just get a LegalShield membership for (I think) $40 per month. These guys get you in contact whith good lawyer who will write good letter on your behalf. All included in membership.
Helped me a lot in similar issues.

 

[Battpower]

Anyone who owns the car can modify it before they resell it.

Yes. BEFORE they sell it. That is the simple core of this thread. Tesla made changes AFTER they sold it.

 

[Battpower]

If you go through this long thread, you will see that Tesla downgraded the features of the car while it was still owned by the non-Tesla dealer (that is, after the OP said he examined the car but before he signed the purchase papers and paid for the car).

The OP says the non-Tesla dealer updated the firmware before he executed the purchase documents, noted that Summon and NoA had disappeared and told the OP that it must be a glitch. Assuming all this is correct and the non-Tesla dealer truly believed the car to properly have EAP and FSD (that is, there was no reason for the non-Tesla dealer to think otherwise), it should have raised a red flag for the non-Tesla dealer to investigate and not brush it off. Further, when the OP was told the features had disappeared by the non-Tesla dealer, he should not have completed the transaction (execute purchase documents and pay for the car) without at least making his own investigation and not relying on an assertion by the non-Tesla dealer that it was likely a glitch. There were at least two points in time where the matter could have been looked into before completing the purchase, which could have prevented the situation the OP is in now.

I am not discussing whether Tesla is right or wrong to have removed features when this particular car was owned by the non-Tesla dealer (that being the point in time the action by Tesla occurred according to the OP), but that a little due diligence could have avoided the present situation. Had the OP inquired with Tesla as to why the features were gone, he may have been told the features were intentionally removed per Tesla’s policy. He could then have made an informed decision whether to still buy that car or look for another car.

This sums things up fine. While there are loads of possible implications worth giving some thought to, I don't think more and more stirring this pot is going to uncover anything else. The OP needs a course of action. In reality there may not be anything worth doing given the multiple parties and Tesla at the end of the chain.

OP, it seems clear enough that your point of possible redress is with the dealer you purchased from. What have you done in that regard? Have you had a friendly chat with your sales contact? You mentionned having other evidence. Do you have a statement from the dealer specifically stating the car is offered for sale with FSD / EAP? Any recorded phone calls / documents that clearly show that the vehicle you were buying had these features?

That is the platform to build on. My personal approach if I were in your position would be to assume that everyone had good intentions. You want a solution right? Not a fight. 'Dear x, you are aware that on mm/dd/yy the spec of my car changed right in the middle of me buying the car from you and the result is the value of my car has been reduced significantly and is not as represented in the sale particulars. The update glitch that you suggested had caused FSD to temporarily be unavailable appears to have had a permanent effect. I am as shocked that this happened as you are. As the selling dealer, I need you to help find a resolution to make good my loss. It was quite clear that I was buying a car with FSD, but that is not what I have got. At this stage I am looking for ideas...... etc. '

Obviously these words may misrepresent the circumstances, but you get my drift. Even if you have already had a face to face screaming session, the dealership is your channel for a solution and you did enter a contract with them so there is something to discuss. Set things out clearly. Ignore Tesla's role as that is not your main concern. Your focus is what the dealer sold you, what representations and evidence they gave, and evidence that this is no longer what you have and why.

In your mind, you need to accept that you may end up being somewhere between 100% where you had expected to be ie: car with FSD or left as you are now, or somewhere I'm between.

No advice here. Just observations and comments, but hopefully something useful.

 

[MS-Alec]

For clarification: you were informed verbally that FSD was no longer enabled prior to you picking up (I.e. completing the sale) the vehicle. Correct?

No, I was not informed, I found out that by an accident when I was trying to set navigation to go home after I signed a very rudimentary, one-page sales contract. The dealer seems to be very surprised as well, and frantically searched the internet and found a couple of threads about sudden Summon and NoA disappearance, adding "it was here yesterday, before the update!"
Remember, I was a VERY excited, first time Tesla buyer, and as an IT professional a software glitch was sound very reasonable to me, so I believed him . Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe anybody can tell if the car has FSD just simply look and search the MCU.
I was 99.99% sure if I see Summon and NoA, then at least EAP is enabled.

 

[MS-Alec]

This sums things up fine. While there are loads of possible implications worth giving some thought to, I don't think more and more stirring this pot is going to uncover anything else. The OP needs a course of action. In reality there may not be anything worth doing given the multiple parties and Tesla at the end of the chain.

OP, it seems clear enough that your point of possible redress is with the dealer you purchased from. What have you done in that regard? Have you had a friendly chat with your sales contact? You mentionned having other evidence. Do you have a statement from the dealer specifically stating the car is offered for sale with FSD / EAP? Any recorded phone calls / documents that clearly show that the vehicle you were buying had these features?

That is the platform to build on. My personal approach if I were in your position would be to assume that everyone had good intentions. You want a solution right? Not a fight. 'Dear x, you are aware that on mm/dd/yy the spec of my car changed right in the middle of me buying the car from you and the result is the value of my car has been reduced significantly and is not as represented in the sale particulars. The update glitch that you suggested had caused FSD to temporarily be unavailable appears to have had a permanent effect. I am as shocked that this happened as you are. As the selling dealer, I need you to help find a resolution to make good my loss. It was quite clear that I was buying a car with FSD, but that is not what I have got. At this stage I am looking for ideas...... etc. '

Obviously these words may misrepresent the circumstances, but you get my drift. Even if you have already had a face to face screaming session, the dealership is your channel for a solution and you did enter a contract with them so there is something to discuss. Set things out clearly. Ignore Tesla's role as that is not your main concern. Your focus is what the dealer sold you, what representations and evidence they gave, and evidence that this is no longer what you have and why.

In your mind, you need to accept that you may end up being somewhere between 100% where you had expected to be ie: car with FSD or left as you are now, or somewhere I'm between.

No advice here. Just observations and comments, but hopefully something useful.

You have caught all the details preciously right! One of my complications in this adventure is this - the dealer is 3 states/800 miles away, so a face to face screaming session is unlikely at this point.