@MS-Alec: I'm a consumer protection attorney and would be interested in investigating this further for you. Please give me a call at the office on Monday at 703-273-7770, or via email: matt at clalegal.com.
Thanks,
Matt Erausquin
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Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]
- Thread starter MS-Alec
- Start date
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- Tags
- class action fsd fsdc
@MS-Alec: I'm a consumer protection attorney and would be interested in investigating this further for you. Please give me a call at the office on Monday at 703-273-7770, or via email: matt at clalegal.com.
Thanks,
Matt Erausquin
The contents of FSD changed sometime last year when EAP was discontinued. Now, to get many of the features that were included with EAP (like summon, autopilot lane change, navigate on autopilot) you need to purchase FSD.I paid for FSD and can't use it still. He didn't pay for it, and gets to use it ?
linux-works
Active Member
Inspector: I hardly think that's good enough! I think it'd be more appropriate if the box bore a great red label: 'WARNING: LARK'S VOMIT!!!'
Mr. Hilton: Our sales would plummet!
Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
Yes, the images of the Monroney sticker do show EAP and FSD charges. But proof that the first - the original owner from Tesla paid for it.
It possible, its not uncommon for something to show on a Monroney sticker as coming with a vehicle but be removed or not paid for. For a while a few years ago Tesla was enabling EAP and FSD for trials. Its possible that the first owner bought a S and didn't want to buy EAP or FSD, then Tesla enabled it as a trial at delivery or later and after the trial was over, Tesla forgot to disable it. Then they buy back the car and their process doesn't check the car during the time they have it before they sell it at auction.
One sure way to find out if it was paid for regardless of whether it shows on a Monroney sticker is ask the first owner. No one so far knows who that is. But The Verge and Jalopnik should have chased that part of the story down and verified versus implying it was paid for.
Just because someone as the legal right to do something does not mean they should exercise that right. Tesla may have had the right to disable it anytime after the sale at the auction. But - to me - I don't think they should have. Even now, if I were an executive at Tesla, I'd contact one of the EV-zines and tell them we are turning EAP and FSD back on to end this on a positive note and apologize to the current owner, regardless of payment.
Moderator note (bmah): This post (plus several posts following) came from another thread that was merged to this one.
What is the real story with the used Model S that Tesla took away FSD from the buyer? I read the headlines, but it doesn't make sense. If I bought a new Model S and paid $8000.00 for FSD, if I sell the car in 3 years, the buyer has a car with FSD, period. They can't just take it away from the second owner and make them pay $8000.00 again. My guess is there was some shennanigans where the original owner never paid for FSD, maybe it was an error update or hack. But for Tesla to not respond to this gives them bad press. They should state why this happened.
What is the real story with the used Model S that Tesla took away FSD from the buyer? I read the headlines, but it doesn't make sense. If I bought a new Model S and paid $8000.00 for FSD, if I sell the car in 3 years, the buyer has a car with FSD, period. They can't just take it away from the second owner and make them pay $8000.00 again. My guess is there was some shennanigans where the original owner never paid for FSD, maybe it was an error update or hack. But for Tesla to not respond to this gives them bad press. They should state why this happened.
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Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
There was a period of time from late 2016 and deep into 2017 that Tesla was turning on EAP and FSD features for trial. I think existing customers received emails that offered it for a week. But folks buying were offered a trial at pickup. For all we know this was a S that decline purchase of EAP and FSD at time of purchase of car even though it was on the Monroney sticker. Then sales offered the trial and forgot to turn it off after a while.
If Tesla takes in a trade with FSD or other software options they can choose to resell it or auction it off with what ever software options they want. It may not get implanted/enforced until long after the car is in the new owners hands. I think if it passes through a dealer Tesla can do the same but I’m not sure that is legal.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
This is the real story from Electrek... Tesla takes away Autopilot from used Model S sold through dealer - Electrek
Tesla has remotely deactivated Autopilot features in a Model S that it sold to a third-party dealer who then sold it to the owner.
Jalopnik laid out the entire timeline of events in a report:
Tesla has remotely deactivated Autopilot features in a Model S that it sold to a third-party dealer who then sold it to the owner.
Jalopnik laid out the entire timeline of events in a report:
- November 15: Tesla sells a 2017 Model S with Autopilot and FSD to a third-party dealer through an auction.
- November 18: Tesla does a remote “audit” of the vehicle and determines that it shouldn’t have Autopilot and FSD.
- December 20: Alec (the customer) buys the Model S with Autopilot and FSD from the dealer.
- January: A new software update removes Autopilot and FSD from Alec’s car.
This thread Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? was started by the person who bought the car.
It doesnt really matter what the car came "with" per se. What matters is what the paperwork said it came with. If Tesla sold it with FSD (which is by no means clear) and later disabled it, then they are in the wrong. If the dealer claimed that, he was in the wrong. The gray areas here are Tesla doing the not-very-smart thing of disabling a feature after the fact (how to get bad publicity without even trying!), and what expectations the buyer should have for software enabled features if he lacks clear paperwork saying the car comes with them.
The problem with the Jalopnik report is they say "Tesla sells a ... with Autopilot and FSD". But what does "with" mean? That Tesla said it included this in the sales document? Or that someone (the dealer?) just happened noticed that it was enabled?
This is new territory for cars. When I buy some software for a PC, the physical possession of the program files does not automatically entitle me to use it; software is licensed, not sold. Of course, that's licensed software, not software-enabled car features, but you can see how this is a gray area.
It doesnt really matter what the car came "with" per se. What matters is what the paperwork said it came with. If Tesla sold it with FSD (which is by no means clear) and later disabled it, then they are in the wrong. If the dealer claimed that, he was in the wrong. The gray areas here are Tesla doing the not-very-smart thing of disabling a feature after the fact (how to get bad publicity without even trying!), and what expectations the buyer should have for software enabled features if he lacks clear paperwork saying the car comes with them.
The problem with the Jalopnik report is they say "Tesla sells a ... with Autopilot and FSD". But what does "with" mean? That Tesla said it included this in the sales document? Or that someone (the dealer?) just happened noticed that it was enabled?
This is new territory for cars. When I buy some software for a PC, the physical possession of the program files does not automatically entitle me to use it; software is licensed, not sold. Of course, that's licensed software, not software-enabled car features, but you can see how this is a gray area.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Come on, if you buy a used car, and it was not advertised as having air conditioning and anti-lock brakes, but it had them at when you inspected the car before you bought it, but on your first oil change the dealer disables both of these features and asks for $2,000 to re-enable them - are you saying that is legal? That would require Tesla and all other used car dealers to give you a detailed listing of every single feature, part, heck screw and wire that is in the used car they are selling, so they cannot remove it after the sale and claim "hey, we never said you car had leather seats, so we swapped them out during your first service visit". OTA update is like a service different, just involuntary.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Hi Matt. There is another thread where Tesla has banned owners from ever buying another Tesla, due to lawsuits etc. This could happen in this case.
whitex
Well-Known Member
OTA should be pretty simple to define legally, just treat it as a free mandatory service appointment. If a manufacturer took off premium wheels during a service appointment, or disabled ABS, that is no different than Tesla removing a software feature remotely. If they have any "trial features" (not the case here btw), they should be very clearly labeled with an expiry date showing in the car.
DeanP
Member
No one has answered my question. Does the extra software purchased belong to the car or to the owner. This article indicates owner but cannot get this confirmed. This makes a HUGE difference in selling a car. Right?
DeanP
Member
From what I've read (at length) these features (on balance) belong to the car, and therefore to the present owner of the car. In essence, they should be inseparable once sold together as part of a specific vehicle.
The moving of features from EAP to FSD raises the question of what happens to EAP if Tesla decides that it nolonger exists as a product. Tesla can argue that since an EAP car was never upgrade as a paid upgrade to FSD, FSD features should be removed from EAP cars. It's all way too messy. Once a car is sold to an end user, if no fraud has taken place, then that should remain the minimum spec of the car for life. Even if a feature were disabled for some reason, the fact that the car is entitled to that feature should remain on the car's record for life.
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