They said "you can't stay on 7.0 forever. .."

[SomeJoe7777]

An interesting perspective on this issue might be to compare it with Microsoft's OS lifecycle policy.

In a nutshell, Microsoft's stated OS support policy is to support the current OS in a "mainstream" support phase for 5 years after release, and in an "extended" support phase for 5 years after that.

The issue that hasn't been referenced in this thread in regards to older software support is one of cost. Let's assume for the minute that Tesla was willing to support older versions of the software. Well, then there is a cost associated with that. At minimum, a team of support programmers must update that software with security fixes and bug fixes, including the aforementioned API updates, and maintain that release train.

The retail cost of software features in the car like AutoPilot are based on a business model that incurs a predictable support cost. At this time, Tesla's business model for this cost does not include supporting older revisions. My question to the OP is hypothetical but relevant: If Tesla were to offer you the chance to fully support your older software revision, including the feature set that it currently has without adding any restrictions, would you pay some sum of extra money to fund the additional software maintenance resources that Tesla would then be required to maintain?

When Microsoft ended extended support, including security fixes, for Windows XP in April of 2014, there were a few large companies that were still not ready to migrate off of Windows XP, and volunteered to pay Microsoft rather large sums of money to continue the support only for them past the end of extended support date. Microsoft agreed and was able to provide that support even though they had no obligation to do so.

I think the OP has a legitimate issue with the change in functionality of AutoPilot that was unexpected when he purchased the car. However, for it to be supported in the manner he wants, the cost is actually quite a bit higher than what he paid. I don't think it's fair to ask Tesla to accommodate the request without also taking into account the cost of the request.

 

[green1]

Tesla set the price of the car, and the feature set it was sold with. It is not my job to make sure their decision was profitable.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Planned obsolescence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence in industrial design and economics is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1] The rationale behind the strategy is to generate long-term sales volume by reducing the time between repeat purchases (referred to as "shortening the replacement cycle").[2]"

Not a conspiracy theory. An actual widespread manufacturing and design strategy.

Any progress which occurs at a fast enough rate is indistinguishable from "planned obsolescence". I'll take the pace we're on, thanks. At what point do you accept that it's not planned? Should Apple still be supporting the Apple ][, the Mac 512? Should Microsoft still be supporting Windows 95? I'm genuinely curious where the line is drawn.

 

[slipnslider]

Any progress which occurs at a fast enough rate is indistinguishable from "planned obsolescence". I'll take the pace we're on, thanks. At what point do you accept that it's not planned? Should Apple still be supporting the Apple ][, the Mac 512? Should Microsoft still be supporting Windows 95? I'm genuinely curious where the line is drawn.

I think if you drop 3k on a laptop, it should still be a viable machine in 8-10 years. Not for the latest games and graphics, but for web surfing and word processing. You shouldn't be forced to update software to keep it working if it was working already. You shouldn't have to download new operating systems that make everything run slower, fill up your hard drive, and eventually make your machine useless. Furthermore if you really need to keep up, you should be able to upgrade just the PART of your machine that needs upgrading, not chuck the whole thing into a landfill and start over. I'm mostly talking about apple here.
I get that some people want the newest fastest bestest whatever, but those who don't shouldn't be forced onto that treadmill simply because the industry caters to the early adopters.

 

[malcolm]

Okies. So what you need here is to set up a classic car owners club.

"The Tesla Manufacturing Year 2013" (or whichever)

Normally such classic car owners groups evolve over time and are supported by third party suppliers who are largely independent of the original manufacturer.

So I don't see a problem with what you're doing in putting out a call for others on TMC to form some sort of Classic Tesla section on this website.

But until you can prove that Tesla have done a VW, they are not required to help treat your early onset nostalgia.

 

[green1]

Luckily I don't need to convince you, because I have a contract with Tesla that lays it out.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Would you be ok if an automaker released a patch to fix the navigation in your car, but it disabled the stereo?
How is that different in any way?

Well this update didn't disable a feature completely, but is arguably a "feature enhancement" in terms of safety. Also, neither of those features you mention are internet connected, while what broke this time is internet connected.

I don't see a lot of useful analogies, but smart phone updates are similar: they are all tied together with feature changes (which some people may view as a step back). You can be stubborn and stick to the old version, but you will find that any apps/features that are internet connected may start breaking. The manufacturer however is not obligated to release an independent patch to fix that in an older version.

 

[neroden]

As a software engineer who works for IBM and knows a great deal about our Open Source initiatives (primarily our work on Linux) I must say you are making quite a bit of noise about something you apparently know very little about.

Obviously I know quite a bit about it. You're just blathering and waving credentials around.

Try talking to your legal department.

 

[neroden]

From what we've seen so far, I don't think anyone's presented evidence they're violating GPL terms.

Are you wilfully blind? We have PROOF that they're violating GPL terms. wk, in particular, has enough proof to go to court with.

Did you get a CD of source code for the GPL-licensed works distributed with your car? Or a written offer to provide source code? Because I sure didn't, and I've specifically asked for it. Repeatedly. I want to know what configuration options they're using on the Linux kernel.

Have you actually *read* the GPL?

Tesla didn't even distribute the copyright notices in the car's documentation. BSD and Apache require that. This is just plain *sloppy*. And yes, I've seen those notices in the manuals for other companies' cars!

And we have several users here pretty deep in the system whom I feel would be making some noise if they were.

You can feel all you like. Some of us work with evidence.

 

[rxlawdude]

As far as divided vs. undivided goes, I have yet to see it get that wrong (on current firmware). Speed limits are evidently tied to the Garmin portion of the navigation system and the accuracy is not within Tesla control and I've heard annual updates are the norm for Garmin. I don't know whether the divided/undivided information is also from Garmin, or from Google.

The autopilot experience has been getting better for me with every update. No more darting for exits or left turn bays. Smoother around the corners. Speed reductions in tight corners. Better follow behaviour. The original version was very clunky compared to what is out today. I actually can't remember what the 'unrestricted' version did that I'd actually trade for the overall improvements I enjoy today. Frankly, I'd be nervous if I had to go back to the early versions and probably wouldn't use it, now that I know what it CAN do.

Not to mention that if it does not know the speed limit on the road, I'm almost positive that it will then allow AutoSteer to operate at any supported speed.

 

[ecarfan]

Are you wilfully blind? We have PROOF that they're violating GPL terms.

No, you don't, as other members posting in this thread have demonstrated.

 

[green1]

Not to mention that if it does not know the speed limit on the road, I'm almost positive that it will then allow AutoSteer to operate at any supported speed.

Actually that is not the case, if it doesn't know the speed limit it defaults to 45mph (well below the actual limit on any road I care about)

 

[stopcrazypp]

Are you wilfully blind? We have PROOF that they're violating GPL terms. wk, in particular, has enough proof to go to court with.

wk057 or you would have no standing to go to court on any alleged GPL term violations. Only the copyright holder does and given apparently they don't care, Tesla is pretty much scot-free even if there are any violations.

 

[neroden]

wk057 or you would have no standing to go to court on any alleged GPL term violations. Only the copyright holder does and given apparently they don't care,

There are literally hundreds of copyright holders. Certainly some of them don't care. Eventually one of them is going to care.

 

[msnow]

Totally agree. The performance of the current AP is just so far beyond the first version. The early AP truly was the twitchy tech demo. My day-to-day use (which of course depends on where I use it I understand) is nearly flawless. Back in 7.0, same roads? Novel, but very unpredictable.

Guys, if I remember what

There are literally hundreds of copyright holders. Certainly some of them don't care. Eventually one of them is going to care.

Nobody cares. This is a boring OT offshoot that has low priority in the scheme of things IMHO. Besides I thought the informative post from @Doug_G debunked all of this anyway.

 

[ohmman]

Not a conspiracy theory. An actual widespread manufacturing and design strategy.

Let's try viewing it from a different angle as well. In your example of an iPhone, I am less likely to believe that "they come out with software so complex that it requires new hardware" than I am that "they came out with new hardware, and they developed software to take full advantage of it." The obsolescence is then not necessarily planned, but a side effect of the rapid improvements in the host hardware. I don't think Apple's crying in their proverbial beer about this secondary outcome, but I don't think they have to try at it. Your old iPhone 5 is going to slow down if you're running the latest iOS, but it'll be totally serviceable with the version of iOS with which it shipped. Which brings us directly back to the topic of this thread.

This techno-car subject actually raises another question - what are these cars going to be like in 10-20 years? I still see 30 year old honda civics and accords driving around. Is a 20 year old tesla going to be a paperweight because it'll have old unsupported software on an old unsupported computer?

This topic has been addressed quite a few times on TMC. @green1's issue could make one think that Tesla's leaving "old supported software" out there. But his situation is different from Tesla actively abandoning software development for a particular vehicle build. I do think they'll sunset support for certain models over time - I think it's only reasonable to assume that. But I think those vehicles will be left operable and still better than their contemporary ICE vehicles. Of course they won't compare to the newest and greatest vehicles, but neither do those 20 year old Civics and Accords.

[Edit: I just realized I missed an entire page of responses to this, and @Stoneymonster addressed it.. but I wrote it and I'm leaving it!]

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes I do. There are some real dumbasses posting in this thread, who haven't demonstrated anything, but pretend that they did.

For what it's worth, some of the copyright holders have already started contacting Tesla and they are not satsified with Tesla's behavior. I was told Tesla hired a law firm known for specializing in delay so that the lawsuits would take years. This doesn't get Tesla off the hook, it just puts it off.

Other than calling other people names, you haven't presented any evidence of such violation. That is what people are talking about. And people aren't just going to "trust you" given your confrontational attitude.

 

[ohmman]

I think if you drop 3k on a laptop, it should still be a viable machine in 8-10 years. Not for the latest games and graphics, but for web surfing and word processing. You shouldn't be forced to update software to keep it working if it was working already. You shouldn't have to download new operating systems that make everything run slower, fill up your hard drive, and eventually make your machine useless. Furthermore if you really need to keep up, you should be able to upgrade just the PART of your machine that needs upgrading, not chuck the whole thing into a landfill and start over. I'm mostly talking about apple here.

Sorry for the second response here but I must be missing something. I have three old Apple computers - an iMac, and two Mac minis, which are running old, deprecated software. The minis use the web to download updates for the "server" software that I run on them and it's perfectly serviceable. I've never been forced to upgrade for any reason. Everything works just as it has for years.

 

[WannabeOwner]

The manufacturer however is not obligated to release an independent patch to fix that in an older version.

Is there actually an older version in existence? (I don't know the answer to that ... maybe for Classic MSs?)

Sure they call it 7.1.xxx just now, and 8.0.xxx soon ... buts its all the same version, just a different update-point-number (and maybe they should have numbered it 1.7.1.xxx and then 1.8.0.xxx ... and maybe they should have called AutoPilot "SteeringAssist", whatever).

Is it correct to say that for a Model S (any & every Model S??) you can download and apply the latest version 7.1.xxx and you will be able to download 8.0.xxx? If so I don't see any "new / old version", just patches to the current version, and a version numbering schema that implies major and minor changes.

 

[malcolm]

The only problem with lawsuits is that they only suit lawyers.