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They said "you can't stay on 7.0 forever. .."

Discussion in 'Model S' started by green1, Aug 6, 2016.

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  1. Odebek

    Odebek Don't Panic

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    I agree with this, but I think AP is exempted, due to the Beta indication. Beta specifically implies that it is in a test mode and that it will change; by participating in the beta you are implicitly agreeing to accept that it is not perfect and that there will be significant changes over time in exchange for early access to the features. I think if any individual is not willing to accept that, they should opt out, wait for the "production" release and decide at that point if it worth the money.

    Also, as with any software, you don't own the software, only the license to use the software. This is why open source is so great, because your license to use also includes the license to tinker, change and maintain on your own. I would love a future version of an open platform Tesla where the software is open source, but I am not so egotistical (cough @green1) to assume that I am entitled to this just because I want it.
     
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  2. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    I already parted ways with Tesla the moment I gave them my money and they gave me the car. That was the end of our arrangement. Their opinion on what I can and can not do to my car is no longer relevant.

    As for your computer and cell phone analogy. Of course I make sure I can modify those! I paid for them, I own them, and I modify them at will. In fact, I bet you installed a piece of software on your computer at some point that the manufacturer didn't specifically approve of.
     
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  3. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    #63 wk057, Aug 7, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
    I agree completely with @green1 on this issue, and I applaud him for holding out on updating for so long.

    First, Tesla was quite careless with the autopilot restrictions. They should never have released a version that did not impose speed restrictions if they were ever going to do so in the future. It's left a pretty bad taste in my mouth knowing that the details of a paid feature can be altered for the worse at Tesla's whim.

    As far as updates go, I think the process Tesla has implemented only has a couple of redeeming qualities: It exists, and the user can choose whether or not to install the update and when. Unfortunately, the lack of any transparency whatsoever regarding the update process kind of makes it less appealing. Before installing, the user doesn't even know what version the software will be updated to, let alone what's changed in that new version. This is an absolutely absurd practice. No one who cares at all about security of their devices should ever install something on their device without first at least knowing what it was and having a minimal understanding of what it will change. This is an entirely unacceptable practice on Tesla's part, and it's one that I doubt will change because so many people will just happily hit that update button without a care in the world. Even then, after updating for over an hour at times, the user still wont even have a clue what's actually been changed. I have no issue with people choosing to trust Tesla to put whatever into updates... but I'm not one of those people.

    Personally, due to the neutering of autopilot in 7.1, I held out on 7.0 for a while and gave the word to my service center that they were no longer allowed to update my firmware under any circumstances without my express permission... a directive which they did abide by. Eventually, as many here are aware, I finally was able to hack out the restrictions on my own car. (No, please do not waste your time asking me to do this on other vehicles. I will not.) I do my updates now after going through them to see what changes are being made first. I don't expect this solution to last forever, either, so at some point I may start rejecting updates again.

    For example, not far from my home there is a 2 lane undivided 55 MPH road which always has minimal traffic. However, 75% of the time the car interprets the speed limit at 5 MPH, even though the 55 MPH sign is clearly visible shortly after turning on to the road. It takes several miles of driving before the car catches the correct limit. In the mean time, the autopilot restrictions would normally make autopilot useless. This is just one example. The speed limit recognition leaves much to be desired. As another example, there is a highway nearby that is 2-lanes in some areas, 4 lanes in others, sometimes divided, sometimes not. Speed limit varies between 45 MPH and 65 MPH. Flow of traffic is generally around 8-12 MPH over the speed limit. Autopilot with the 5 MPH restriction makes it unusable on this road, which I occasionally travel ~40+ miles on. In my opinion, if I were to utilize restricted autopilot on this road I would be creating an unsafe situation for myself and for other drivers as the drivers behind me get frustrated and make dangerous passing maneuvers to get around me... a situation what wouldn't exist in v7.0.

    I'm not against safety restrictions on autopilot. I do have an issue with the speed restriction for quite a few reasons, though. It gets it wrong quite a bit of the time, making the feature more of a crap shoot than a useful feature. I also have an issue with the broad lock down in general with no way the human who's supposed to be babysitting autopilot to actually override it in this instance. Nope, they assume the computer knows best here, when clearly it doesn't. Maybe out in California where Tesla personally tests these things it works great. But most places I've been it would be more of a hindrance. I suppose my biggest issue is that this particular restriction just makes so little sense. Definitely a knee jerk reaction to some early incidents where people were doing stupid things at higher speeds than reasonable. When driving with the flow of traffic at a reasonable speed there's no real difference in autopilot's performance be it at 60 or 65 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. It works as expected and has the same issues at +5 MPH as it does at +10 MPH. So really, Tesla, at a minimum put in a damn user override for this. You want people to use autopilot and increase overall safety? Let people actually use it.

    Anyway, @green1, it seems that Tesla isn't going to change their position on these issues. They've no reason too. The responses from many people in this very thread provide proof they have no real incentive to change anything because still, right or wrong, people will simply defend Tesla's actions to the death.... which is pretty sad. I promise, regardless of what many want to believe, Tesla is fallible, just like every other company.... perhaps even more so at times.
     
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  4. TaoJones

    TaoJones Beyond Driven

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    So other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? :)

    Agreed entirely re the update practice. The one-liner referenced above is a great baby step, but in the end, I would still very much like to know what changes/fixes are about to be made *before* making them. Last I checked, Tesla doesn't pay my car insurance bill.

    Speed limit signs... Not perfect, but serviceable. The question becomes, then, should we have a user override feature with regard to the governance of speed until speed limit sign reaction improves?

    I'd like to see that as an advanced feature with the usual caveats.
     
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  5. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    I agree it's an issue and I think Tesla should fix it on the highest speed divided roads you travel the most. I'd suggest you update/refesh your list of roads/speed limits that are incorrect and send that with every communication you have about this issue.

    Also keep in mind 8.0 is coming soon and you may want 8.0 even if you didn't want 7.1. If you can get them to fix the speed limit issues that would be one less reason to avoid 8.0.

    Exclusive on Tesla 8.0 update: new Autopilot features, biggest UI refresh since launch and much more
     
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  6. bonnie

    bonnie I play a nice person on twitter.

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    You all need to read the EULA's for some other vehicles out there. Seriously. I was in a family member's Mustang for an extended road trip, and the licensing agreement clearly called out that Ford retained ownership of the software, that purchasing the car gave you a license to use the software, and that Ford could add/delete features. And that by driving the vehicle, you agreed to these restrictions.

    I'll find the photos I took of the manual - haven't seen the exact same online, but I will look for that, too.
     
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  7. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    Just because they put it in a EULA doesn't mean it's enforceable. I know I wouldn't let Ford off the hook just because they say they want it to work that way.
     
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  8. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    If you can forward a copy of Tesla's vehicle software license agreement, I'd love to give it a read. Considering it doesn't seem to exist, that'll probably be difficult, though.

    I've been through every byte of the firmware and every scrap of documentation I've been provided with. The only licenses I've been able to find anywhere: Apache 2.0; Artistic (OSS); BSD; GFDL (up to v1.3); GPL (up to v3); LGPL (up to v3). Included as part of the Debian-based base OS Tesla uses... doesn't mean any of these apply to Tesla's firmware. But, given the absence of a license, and the necessity of the software to make the vehicle function as the product that was sold... I think Tesla will have a hell of a time legally defended anything an owner decided to do with their vehicle of the software contained within.

    Tesla *should* have a license in place. But they don't. They could add one for later versions, but as of right now I've agreed to no license, nor have I ever been presented with such a license. This software was given to me as a part of a product I wholly own.
     
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  9. Odebek

    Odebek Don't Panic

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    I think the reasonable approaches here are 1) Accept the change; 2) Ask for your money back and turn off the feature; 3) Hack it yourself.

    Looks like you took option 3, which I applaud!! @green1 on the other hand wants option 4) throw a temper tantrum and blame Tesla

    I think writing off everyone that disagrees with you as a Tesla FanBoy/Girl is pretty myopic, of course Tesla is fallible. Just because they are fallible doesn't mean they are wrong in this particular instance. The fact that you and green1 want something does not make it binding on Tesla to do that (especially if it slows their ability to safely advance autonomous driving for millions of other people)
     
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  10. Don85D

    Don85D Member

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    After decades of rebuilding and tinkering with cars I have come to the conclusion that it was just a hobby and one that I can continue if I want. The Model S purchase was in support of the direction to EVs so that my grandkids can have one in their future. I have no interest in modifying or 'improving' the Model S myself. This car is part of the new generation and that means continuous SW updates over the air.

    I'm sure that if my Model S needed repair the first thing that would be done is a SW update to the latest version. That happens today on every device with programming. It's the Internet of Things happening and I'm OK with that.

    If I want to tinker with technology I have a garage filled with old cars and motorcycles. The Tesla is not for tinkering, in my opinion.

    However, there is one area that augments the EV purchase and that can provide some gratification to accompany the car. We told our grandkids that the Tesla would run on sunshine and to prove it we installed a solar array, micro inverters and connected it to the grid. Our cost to drive the car is zero. That's useful tinkering of EV technology and we did the installation ourselves.

    If you think of a Tesla as being part of the Internet of Things it more clearly separates it from the old world of automobile ownership.
     
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  11. bonnie

    bonnie I play a nice person on twitter.

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    I should have been more clear about my point, it appears. The tone of many posts made it sound like Tesla was doing something that no other manufacturer would ever consider - I was merely pointing out that yes, other manufacturers DO similar actions and some are definitely more heavy handed.

    Not going to debate what could be won in court or if people agreed or whatever. I was merely pointing out that their stance is not unusual.

    I'd say 'don't shoot the messenger', but eh. Shoot if you want. Or not. I'm off for a beautiful day!
     
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  12. Baja30

    Baja30 Member

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    The way I see it, Tesla didn't take away any features as the OP claims, they updated a few functions. Autopilot works as advertised, Tesla doesn't specify all the different functions of autopilot so the two changes the OP is complaining about are not out of specification.

    Anyone and everyone who bought a Tesla and upgraded to Autopilot knew it was a feature that would be updated constantly, part of Tesla's promotion of the technology.

    I would be embarrassed to stand my ground on these two issues, certainly there has to be more in your life to worry about than these. If not, move on and enjoy life.
     
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  13. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    Gotcha. And no guns to shoot the messenger with here, anyway. :p

    And I'm once again reminded why I spend barely a fraction of the time I used to on this forum.

    You miss the point entirely. Not about agreement or disagreement in most of these cases. Doesn't matter what the actual issue is. A lot of the time it's black and white, but people still perpetuate thousand page threads trying to come up with ways to justify Tesla's actions/inactions. This is just another example. Someone complains about something Tesla is doing, and the dogpile commences.

    In any case, I think there's some serious misinterpretation of what resolution the OP desires. I believe a current firmware version sans autopilot restrictions would be ideal, and I think @green1 would agree. This is well within Tesla's ability to provide, but they will not. So, instead the owner is left with a crappy choice of which features he's willing to lose: Unrestricted autopilot (lost if upgraded to latest); or maps, voice commands, and potentially more (lost if remaining on 7.0).

    Definitely enough TMC for me for today.
     
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  14. Odebek

    Odebek Don't Panic

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    I love how the folks complaining about this refuse to answer the "get your money back" argument. If @green1 is so dissatisfied then he/she should ask for a refund and turn it off. The fact that is not happening means that they still find enough value in keeping it.
     
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  15. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Well-Known Member

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    I think it's totally unreasonable to expect Tesla to update a V7.0 branch of code to work with things like Google maps, or the voice recognition.

    If you don't update for a long time I would fully expect internet connected features to start to die. At some point you probably won't even get the tile updates that happen time to time for AP. You also won't get a significant improvement that we'll likely get with V8

    Now that doesn't mean I don't support the OP's position of wanting to remain on V7. I just think he has to be okay with various internet features to die. In fact fairly soon his slacker will likely stop since they're supposed to be switching to spotify soon.

    I wish him luck, but it's going to be a futile fight. The biggest problem is with service and it's likely inevitable that a mechanic will have to update the firmware to complete a fix.
     
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  16. CuriousG

    CuriousG Active Member

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    #76 CuriousG, Aug 7, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
    Look what happened to Dee Snider's Tesla when he got professionals working on it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. ohmman

    ohmman Plaid-ish Moderator

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    I'm currently deciding whether to allow "the tragedy known as" will modify Dee Snyder or his Tesla.
     
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  18. theslimshadyist

    theslimshadyist Trampa!

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    Kinda how I look at it. Tesla at it's core is a technology company that incorporates their IP in vehicles they build.
     
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  19. javawolfpack

    javawolfpack Member

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    The coolest Tesla tinkering has been more mechanics, look, seating, etc... But the tech/IOT kind of part of the Tesla it kind of makes sense that it's treated like software.

    People have even redone the engine gearing among other things such as the Saleen modified Tesla: Saleen | GTX
     
  20. CuriousG

    CuriousG Active Member

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    I fixed it for you.
     
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