TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
  1. TMC is currently READ ONLY.
    Click here for more info.

They said "you can't stay on 7.0 forever. .."

Discussion in 'Model S' started by green1, Aug 6, 2016.

Tags:
  1. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    871
    Location:
    Newark, CA
    I find that perception rarely equates to reality, more FUD from those refusing to accept progress. If you aren't ready to adopt the advances, then opt out or sell your Tesla, it obviously wasn't meant for you. So far the advances made have only improved the overall experience and safety of the vehicle's semi-autonomous features. To deny your car of the these updates only puts you and those around you more at risk. If you want to take full advantage of these bleeding edge features, you need to be willing to accept that things change, and sometimes not in the manner you expect, but you will learn that it is for the greater good that all cars are updated, to share and gather information from one another to one day allow us to realize the dream of truly autonomous driving, in two or three generations of development perhaps.
     
    • Disagree x 3
    • Like x 2
  2. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,676
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY, USA
    Given that Tesla repeatedly broke things in updates, they should have expected that users would refuse updates. If you've ever worked on production software, you'd know this. Users do not accept downgrades.

    And new bugs which need to be avoided. IT professionals working on mission-critical systems generally PREVENT updates from happening on managed computers until they've verified that they're OK.

    Tesla has had development and deployment practices which are frankly unacceptable for a mission-critical system. This is at the root of the problem here.
     
    • Disagree x 4
    • Like x 3
  3. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,676
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY, USA
    You do realize that much of the software *is* open source, and Tesla is simply violating the license? It's one of the more immoral things they've been doing.
     
    • Disagree x 7
    • Like x 1
  4. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,676
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY, USA
    Please note that Tesla is violating the terms of *every one of these licenses*.

    It would be a kindness if you notified the copyright holders. I don't have a full list of copyrght holders because I haven't gotten root on my car.

    Tesla has had several years to comply with the very simple terms of the licenses, and has not. I suspect some of the copyright holders would like to get royalties, since their software has been pirated for profit by Tesla. Last I checked, IBM holds copyright in portions of the Linux kernel, and I'm sure they'd appreciate the income.
     
    • Disagree x 8
  5. 182RG

    182RG Free The Service Manuals From Tyranny

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    714
    Location:
    Virginia
    #105 182RG, Aug 8, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
    A majority of forum members are VERY protective of the brand, of the cause, and of EM. It's more of a cult, than a car at various times. Don't you feel privileged driving it?

    Tesla is anti-consumer in a lot of ways. Inconsistent customer service, thumbing their nose at Magnuson-Moss with deliberate lack of availability of service manuals, parts, and diagnostic tools.
     
    • Disagree x 4
    • Like x 1
  6. Odebek

    Odebek Don't Panic

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    220
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    In what way are they violating an open source license?
     
  7. msnow

    msnow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,951
    Location:
    SoCal
  8. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2013
    Messages:
    19,181
    Location:
    San Mateo, CA
    I disagree. In another thread @Doug_G posted this, quote:
    ----------------
    You can write user space applications with no requirement to release the source code, because you are not extending Linux, you are writing code that runs on the operating system. Just likerunning Firefix on Windows doesn't make it part of Windows. It is no different whether you are running a desktop application or an embedded application.

    For an explanation of these issues see Using GPL software in embedded applications | ZDNet
    -----------------------------------
     
    • Like x 2
    • Love x 2
  9. ohmman

    ohmman Plaid-ish Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    9,876
    Location:
    North Bay, CA
    While we sort out whether or not Tesla really is violating the GPL terms (I side with @Doug_G and many embedded systems experts on this one and do not believe they are), what are the other "immoral" things they're doing?
     
  10. Max*

    Max* Charging

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    6,670
    Location:
    NoVa
    I see where green1 is coming from; while I personally wouldn't do what he's doing, I agree with what he's trying to do.

    Tesla should allow us to tinker with the car, Tesla should be more open to their updates, Tesla shouldn't be punishing us for not updating (don't know if that's what is happening to the OP, as someone mentioned upthread that the Google API changed), Tesla should have the repair manual available for sale for anyone to buy/look at/etc. (not just MA residents), Tesla should expand their repair shop process, etc. etc. etc.

    This is an uphill battle and I wish the OP luck.
     
    • Like x 3
    • Disagree x 2
    • Love x 1
  11. AZ Desert Driver

    AZ Desert Driver Rare combination

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,335
    Location:
    Tucson AZ
    I don't follow WHY "Tesla Should"

    Tesla should allow us to tinker with the car, Tesla should be more open to their updates, Tesla should have the repair manual available for sale for anyone to buy/look at/etc. , Tesla should expand their repair shop process, etc. etc. etc.
    Tesla is gathering data from a fleet and trying to add that data into an improved product. If Tinkerers were able to contaminate that stream, could those shift liability? Could one tinker back flow into another update?. Why would you want a horde of untrained mechanics tinkering with safety systems?

    I just don't get Why Tesla Should. Tell me how this would be a good thing. I can't see it.
     
    • Like x 3
  12. bobjustbob

    bobjustbob Elon Musk takes all my money

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    83
    Location:
    Cumming, GA
    As a software engineer who works for IBM and knows a great deal about our Open Source initiatives (primarily our work on Linux) I must say you are making quite a bit of noise about something you apparently know very little about.
     
    • Like x 5
    • Love x 3
    • Informative x 2
  13. geoff79s

    geoff79s Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2016
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Antwerpen
    I've been following this thread with great interest. It all boils down to the classic discussion of "owning" software and not so more the hardware that came with it. Apple has gotten some flack on this in the past. I think personally you choose this with buying a product. It's an evolving matter in how products will be delivered. Deal with the updates. I don't agree with the OP's view that "no hands on the weel" is taking away feature but it's debatable. If I compare it to Sony or Microsoft with their Playstation and Xbox consoles you can't even game online without updating the software. Some features get "enhanced" or "restricted" but a lot of new features get added too. Are they then also taking away functionality? Apple is removing the gun of their emoji with a squirt gun, should we complain?

    With buying a Tesla as an early adopter we've also taken the risk that this product is yet to be in it's final form. And this is on the software and hardware side. What will we all do when Autopilot 2 arrives and it needs new hardware? Cry about less features?

    Tesla is an evolving product still looking for the right set of features on a lot of levels, if adding new features might mean that some of them dissapear because of safety then this is something I accept. If you don't, I can only suggest Tesla is not the brand you're looking for.
     
    • Like x 3
  14. ohmman

    ohmman Plaid-ish Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Messages:
    9,876
    Location:
    North Bay, CA
    And continues to do so. This is really the same discussion that has been going on in Apple forums about iOS for years. Some people choose to jailbreak their phones. Apple doesn't support them.
     
  15. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Messages:
    3,657
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    From what we've seen so far, I don't think anyone's presented evidence they're violating GPL terms. And we have several users here pretty deep in the system whom I feel would be making some noise if they were.

    I don't think "immoral" is necessarily the right word, but I do think they're falling on the wrong side of the repairability line by withholding service manuals. I think we're rapidly approaching the point where that protectionist stance will start causing problems for them. Especially given the fact that in many areas you have to wait several months to have even the most minor of issues addressed. Being able to visit a third-party shop would be appreciated. I think there'd probably be third-party shops specializing in Teslas already in areas where they have high density.
     
    • Like x 1
  16. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,787
    Location:
    Aptos, Ca
    Recalls don't magically take people's cars and fix them. The suggestion that a recall for a software upgrade that improves safety features would compel people to apply them (like @green1) is simply false. People would still be free to not get the car fixed, upgraded, whatever.

    I agree, it's an interesting thought experiment too for this reason: Tesla has maintained that service will not be a profit center for them. By allowing third-party for-profit service, it sets up an interesting dichotomy between them and service providers. I'm not sure how that would play out.
     
  17. thecloud

    thecloud As rhythm raced inside, the ship came alive

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,769
    Location:
    Sunnyvale, CA
    I hear this repeated a lot in the forum, and it seems like an unnecessarily divisive thing to say. It should be possible to express disagreement with the way something works without being required to sell your car and get out of the ecosystem. It may be self-defeating and against "the greater good" for some folks to refuse updates, but I'm pretty sure they love driving their cars and want Tesla to get things right as much as we all do.
     
    • Like x 2
  18. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,787
    Location:
    Aptos, Ca
    This becomes more and more difficult as cars become more connected and security risks. Not updating will soon be the equivalent of refusing security patches for Windows or MacOS. I'm sympathetic, but I think this is just the way things are going.
     
    • Informative x 1
  19. msnow

    msnow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,951
    Location:
    SoCal
    I think Tesla still has a way in as long as remote access is on. I know I get Navigon map updates without agreeing to it or even knowing I got it. Also one person who rooted their car had an unwanted firmware update magically installed on their car. I really think if regulators told Tesla to turn on full time nags or disable it they would do that without hesitation.
     
  20. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,787
    Location:
    Aptos, Ca
    Yeah, probably.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC