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thecloud
As rhythm raced inside, the ship came alive
Like many here, I bought my car when it was running 6.x. It had a beautifully designed speedometer which was easy to read, provided essential information, and looked better than any other instrument panel I'd seen.
Then 7.0 came along, and Tesla took the speedometer away entirely to make room for a new, always-on Autopilot display. Those without AP got to keep a modified version of their speedometer, but no such allowance was made for AP cars, even when being manually driven. The "replacement functionality" was a new widget off to the side that was smaller, hard to read, and did not show the analog speed rate or the dynamic upper and lower boundary lines on the energy meter.
I was unhappy about losing the speedometer. A signature design element which contributed to my enjoyment of the car was now gone, and the replacement dashboard elements were not an improvement on that design. I still feel that way.
But I also knew that when I bought the car, it would not be staying the same as it was forever. Continual upgrades and improvements via OTA updates were part of the deal we all signed up for and bought into, from day one.
As much as I loved the speedometer display, and would still love to have it back when I'm manually driving the car, autosteer is amazing and TACC has become an indispensable feature. So 7.x has been one step backward and two steps forward for me.
I expect 8.0 will be the same. There will be some great new hotness, and Tesla will also likely get something wrong. Feedback to let them know how the change affects you is essential. However, I don't think it's reasonable to ask Tesla to provide me with custom firmware that includes only the behaviors I might like and excludes the ones I don't like (such as changes made to autopilot for safety reasons.) That road leads to potentially untested combinations of mismatched components, and for everyone's safety, they need to make sure their deployed firmware releases are consistent, tested, and contain all current bug fixes.
As I understood green1's argument, he wants to stay on an older firmware release without losing services whose back-end implementation has been updated to require a more current firmware version. In other words, the car's network-dependent features (nav, maps, internet media, autopilot, access via phone app, etc.) are viewed as tangible "owned" things whose feature set should be supported in a backward-compatible way forever. The reality is that they are software-based services which we happen to pay for up front, and which run on the hardware that we own. The owners of those services are free to change how they work and make improvements. Can they require me to use a newer Tesla OS? Sure they can. It's not unlike how some websites will shut you out if your browser isn't up to date, either because the site requires support for newer technology (e.g. HTML5), or because they don't want you using older versions with known security bugs.
Then 7.0 came along, and Tesla took the speedometer away entirely to make room for a new, always-on Autopilot display. Those without AP got to keep a modified version of their speedometer, but no such allowance was made for AP cars, even when being manually driven. The "replacement functionality" was a new widget off to the side that was smaller, hard to read, and did not show the analog speed rate or the dynamic upper and lower boundary lines on the energy meter.
I was unhappy about losing the speedometer. A signature design element which contributed to my enjoyment of the car was now gone, and the replacement dashboard elements were not an improvement on that design. I still feel that way.
But I also knew that when I bought the car, it would not be staying the same as it was forever. Continual upgrades and improvements via OTA updates were part of the deal we all signed up for and bought into, from day one.
As much as I loved the speedometer display, and would still love to have it back when I'm manually driving the car, autosteer is amazing and TACC has become an indispensable feature. So 7.x has been one step backward and two steps forward for me.
I expect 8.0 will be the same. There will be some great new hotness, and Tesla will also likely get something wrong. Feedback to let them know how the change affects you is essential. However, I don't think it's reasonable to ask Tesla to provide me with custom firmware that includes only the behaviors I might like and excludes the ones I don't like (such as changes made to autopilot for safety reasons.) That road leads to potentially untested combinations of mismatched components, and for everyone's safety, they need to make sure their deployed firmware releases are consistent, tested, and contain all current bug fixes.
As I understood green1's argument, he wants to stay on an older firmware release without losing services whose back-end implementation has been updated to require a more current firmware version. In other words, the car's network-dependent features (nav, maps, internet media, autopilot, access via phone app, etc.) are viewed as tangible "owned" things whose feature set should be supported in a backward-compatible way forever. The reality is that they are software-based services which we happen to pay for up front, and which run on the hardware that we own. The owners of those services are free to change how they work and make improvements. Can they require me to use a newer Tesla OS? Sure they can. It's not unlike how some websites will shut you out if your browser isn't up to date, either because the site requires support for newer technology (e.g. HTML5), or because they don't want you using older versions with known security bugs.
CuriousG
Active Member
Hey the media has a tendency to run with stories that aren't there and may mistake it to think I reported someone had died in another Tesla.I kind of liked the mystery.
In your example, if there is a software defect that leads to an increased likelihood of an accident if it wasn't updated, then the proper course to follow is for Tesla to initiate a "recall."
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
I agree Green1 should have a choice to avoid the upgrade but I'm hoping 8.0 will be good enough that he'll be happy to take that step. Hoping it'll fix the speedometer enough that all the 6.x holdouts/7.x wish they were still on 6.x users will all be happy again.
thecloud
As rhythm raced inside, the ship came alive
mach.89
Member
Putting aside the arguments on "should we be allowed to tinker", "should we have the option to skip updates if it changes things in a way we personally disagree with", etc etc, I'll try to make a couple points/ask a question here that's at the heart of the technical problems.
As to the OP (and others) disagreement with nags after 7.0, I'd like to be onboard with you but just can't. Anyone who's used AP for awhile has seen what can happen if you just put your hands in your lap and enjoy the ride... Inevitably, at some point auto steer will give you a good scare. I've had my moments where it's nice to take my hands off for a little while but as I read more about AP accidents I've come to accept that it's just plain stupid to not have at least one hand on the wheel ready to take over at a moments notice. And I've had my eyes bug out a handful of times where AP wanted to steer me into the center divide or off the freeway for no good reason. There's a time and place to take hands off for a reasonable amount of time, but I find those few and far between. It's just not safe at this time with AP in its current form. Sorry, I can't agree with resisting an update that protects us and others from doing something unsafe, such as hands off driving.
On the other hand, I totally can sympathize with the OP and others having trouble with the speed limit detection errors. Like others have said, being in California I just have never experienced this issue, it's been nearly flawless for me. It just seems like the real issue that should be stated is why hasn't Tesla fixed this problem for those that live in other countries/states where the signs are different? Shouldn't all this energy in resisting updates because it breaks something that is technically broken be redirected into fixing the real problem? Perhaps the OP and others having this speed limit issue have already tried this avenue but it sure seems like it makes more sense to continue to fight for the proper fix than this update resistance fight, though I think I get their philosophical reasons behind it as well.
And as a question to the people that have the speed limit sensing inaccuracies, is it not possible to just manually step on the accelerator to continue at the desired speed or does auto steer really not work above the sensed speed limit threshold? Sorry if that's a dumb question, just seems like not such a bad solution if it works until they fix the speed limit sensing issues. And like others have said, maybe 8.0 will be the answer to all of our software prayers and this whole thing is moot, minus the who owns the car/philosophical side discussion here.
As to the OP (and others) disagreement with nags after 7.0, I'd like to be onboard with you but just can't. Anyone who's used AP for awhile has seen what can happen if you just put your hands in your lap and enjoy the ride... Inevitably, at some point auto steer will give you a good scare. I've had my moments where it's nice to take my hands off for a little while but as I read more about AP accidents I've come to accept that it's just plain stupid to not have at least one hand on the wheel ready to take over at a moments notice. And I've had my eyes bug out a handful of times where AP wanted to steer me into the center divide or off the freeway for no good reason. There's a time and place to take hands off for a reasonable amount of time, but I find those few and far between. It's just not safe at this time with AP in its current form. Sorry, I can't agree with resisting an update that protects us and others from doing something unsafe, such as hands off driving.
On the other hand, I totally can sympathize with the OP and others having trouble with the speed limit detection errors. Like others have said, being in California I just have never experienced this issue, it's been nearly flawless for me. It just seems like the real issue that should be stated is why hasn't Tesla fixed this problem for those that live in other countries/states where the signs are different? Shouldn't all this energy in resisting updates because it breaks something that is technically broken be redirected into fixing the real problem? Perhaps the OP and others having this speed limit issue have already tried this avenue but it sure seems like it makes more sense to continue to fight for the proper fix than this update resistance fight, though I think I get their philosophical reasons behind it as well.
And as a question to the people that have the speed limit sensing inaccuracies, is it not possible to just manually step on the accelerator to continue at the desired speed or does auto steer really not work above the sensed speed limit threshold? Sorry if that's a dumb question, just seems like not such a bad solution if it works until they fix the speed limit sensing issues. And like others have said, maybe 8.0 will be the answer to all of our software prayers and this whole thing is moot, minus the who owns the car/philosophical side discussion here.
@thecloud and @mach.89
Very well thought out and reasonable responses, nice posts!
Regarding if @green1 had tried to let Tesla know about the streets that had incorrect speed data, he has several times. If AP doesn't detect a minimum speed it won't engage. So if the speed limit is 55 and its detecting 5 it won't work.
Very well thought out and reasonable responses, nice posts!
Regarding if @green1 had tried to let Tesla know about the streets that had incorrect speed data, he has several times. If AP doesn't detect a minimum speed it won't engage. So if the speed limit is 55 and its detecting 5 it won't work.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
True, but occasionally it will misread a truck/school zone 25mph sign and abruptly decelerate toward 30mph from, say, 50mph.
If a large truck is between the car and a new speed limit sign, that sign ain't getting read.
But these examples, while they did and do happen, are outliers.
Would it be nice to have an opt-in advanced feature to disable or increase the speed differential from +5mph to +10mph? Sure - although I am reminded that there are recurring cases when the +5mph limit hasn't applied anyway while on some highway or another and Autosteer works fine regardless.
Overall, both features (TACC and Autosteer) are not quite yet ready for prime time, depending upon how you define prime time - despite marked improvements over the past year+, and with improvements certainly coming soon that leverage the existing hardware (a win in itself).
I have no problem adapting to the foibles that DriverAssist (DA aka AP)* foists upon me on a daily basis. In the space of minutes, DA can lessen the chance of an accident and greatly increase the chance of an accident as well - every single day. I'm fine with that. I would not be fine with an older relative driving the car with the active DA features engaged. I appreciate the fact that a Model S with just the passive DA features is still far safer than anything else on the road today, and would prefer that *all* my relatives, young and old, drive Model S/X. However, not all relatives are qualified to be beta testers, nor do some particularly want to be, either.
So give us a toggle to add to the list that we already have in the Settings section. "Autosteer speed governance on/off" with 3 screens of "Are you sure?", and, for bonus points, a monthly reminder alert window for that and other key settings.
Driver behavior can be monitored/governed without being coddled, I suppose is the point that I'm trying to make.
* DriverAssist = DA aka AP, as "Autopilot" is still a misnomer for those familiar with its use in environments other than automotive.
If a large truck is between the car and a new speed limit sign, that sign ain't getting read.
But these examples, while they did and do happen, are outliers.
Would it be nice to have an opt-in advanced feature to disable or increase the speed differential from +5mph to +10mph? Sure - although I am reminded that there are recurring cases when the +5mph limit hasn't applied anyway while on some highway or another and Autosteer works fine regardless.
Overall, both features (TACC and Autosteer) are not quite yet ready for prime time, depending upon how you define prime time - despite marked improvements over the past year+, and with improvements certainly coming soon that leverage the existing hardware (a win in itself).
I have no problem adapting to the foibles that DriverAssist (DA aka AP)* foists upon me on a daily basis. In the space of minutes, DA can lessen the chance of an accident and greatly increase the chance of an accident as well - every single day. I'm fine with that. I would not be fine with an older relative driving the car with the active DA features engaged. I appreciate the fact that a Model S with just the passive DA features is still far safer than anything else on the road today, and would prefer that *all* my relatives, young and old, drive Model S/X. However, not all relatives are qualified to be beta testers, nor do some particularly want to be, either.
So give us a toggle to add to the list that we already have in the Settings section. "Autosteer speed governance on/off" with 3 screens of "Are you sure?", and, for bonus points, a monthly reminder alert window for that and other key settings.
Driver behavior can be monitored/governed without being coddled, I suppose is the point that I'm trying to make.
* DriverAssist = DA aka AP, as "Autopilot" is still a misnomer for those familiar with its use in environments other than automotive.
I'm assuming you are meaning the "Speed Assist" feature of TACC/AP. TACC can operate on it's own, and not have this turned on. As most vehicles coming out now are releasing some form of TACC, but not all of them offer the ability to adjust speed... if you see the relative to the detected/GPS speed feature having issues you can go with an absolute speed limit option.
It also is interesting that the road conditions that seemingly those who aren't liking the revised AP features are roads explicitly mentioned in the manual & AP instructions that it auto steer shouldn't be used on.
I don't see why that's relevant. Recall or not still requires cooperation from the customer.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
He knows because he uses autopilot in 7.0 and it shows the wrong speed limit on the dash display. The speed limit detection hasn't been changed between 7.0 and 7.1 just the rule about engaging autopilot on some roads.
So if he upgrades he knows it will happen. Quite simple really.
I think the way it's *supposed* to work is if the camera can't pick up the speed limit it goes to a database. Both need improvement.
Odebek
Don't Panic
This is such a 1st world problem, I am shocked it received 5 pages of traction. I personally couldn't find anything constructive in here at all. It unfolded like a slow speed train wreck. I worried that it might contain something that a pseudo reporter or short-holding blogger could sink their teeth into. But alas...nope. Ever this thread was summarized and reposted anywhere but here, it would lead to nothing more than vitriol slung at the petty and punitive nature of the entire premise.
EVie'sDad
Member
Why would one want to stay 'stuck' on inferior software?
Five updates in five weeks and AP is better than ever! It's not restricting it's use, it's making it better and safer. Be the last to update and hope you remain safe on the road by having to correct all the flaws already accounted for in the updates.
We will get 8.0 here pretty soon and may even begin respecting red lights, stop signs, cross traffic and perhaps even more improvements in handling and situational awareness.
Why would I want to deny my own vehicle from these upgrades?
Five updates in five weeks and AP is better than ever! It's not restricting it's use, it's making it better and safer. Be the last to update and hope you remain safe on the road by having to correct all the flaws already accounted for in the updates.
We will get 8.0 here pretty soon and may even begin respecting red lights, stop signs, cross traffic and perhaps even more improvements in handling and situational awareness.
Why would I want to deny my own vehicle from these upgrades?
Canuck
Well-Known Member
The camera can read speed signs so of course it can read stop signs. But having it respect them (and red lights and cross traffic) will never happen without multiple cameras. The potential for tragic accidents is far too great with the current AP hardware. You need redundancy before that will ever happen and redundancy can't happen with software upgrades. All just my opinion of course, but based on what Elon Musk has said about the need for redundancy.
thecloud
As rhythm raced inside, the ship came alive
Easy: because that version works the way you want, and later versions do not. If you perceive that the update will permanently take away or restrict some feature that's important to you, then you see the update as the inferior software. There is always an urge to hang on tightly to what you've got when you're afraid of losing it.
My earlier post about the speedometer was trying to empathize with the feeling of loss that comes when a feature you use and rely on gets hamstrung. However, I'm optimistic that Tesla is still moving in a forward direction here, pushing the limits, and improving things. I still look forward to each update, and the possibility that I'll again be delighted by what's yet to come.
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