Thinking about joining legal action on recent massive price cut

[Knightshade]

The $7,500 tax credit definitely helped me not take a total bath, but I paid $72,700 ($65,200 with credits) for a car that is today $58,190 (granted I have a couple extra features from EAP that aren't in AP)

So you'd need to add the $6000 FSD package to the $58,190 car to be equivalent in function....which gets you to $64,190 for a functionally equivalent car today.

Compared to $65,200 that doesn't seem much of a hit.

(and even less of one if you're not account for the $350 in hardware new cars don't come with but yours did- or the $200 higher destination fee new cars come with- or the lifetime data you got if you ordered before July 1, 2018 if you did so...plus any gas savings since you got the Tesla then instead of now....)

 

[CarlK]

No, there is a gap of how much you owe vs what the car is worth. The gap is wide. Say if you wrecked your car or someone hit you, and the car is totaled. Insurance will pay you $38k but you owe $45k. You now need GAP insurance to cover what you owe vs what the car is worth.

Check if your insurance. Insurance always low balls so they will pay you at current values with is like $7-10k lower that what you bought the car for.

What's wrong with insurance company pays you enough to buy a car that is exactly the same as the one that was wrecked? It will be exactly the same situation for you as what it was the day before the accident, including how much you have owed. Again you're thinking the insurance should cover the depreciation that has nothing to do with the accident.

 

[MP3Mike]

What's wrong with insurance company pays you enough to buy a car that is exactly the same as the one that was wrecked? It will be exactly the same situation for you as what it was the day before the accident, including how much you have owed. Again you're thinking the insurance should cover the depreciation that has nothing to do with the accident.

Well, they aren't actually giving you enough to buy another car, as you first have to pay off your old loan you may be underwater on. So you may have to get a loan that covers more than the value of the replacement car depending on how underwater you were. Which you may be unable to get. Just making up some numbers: You paid $70k and took out a $65k loan. The car is now worth $45k, but you owe $55k. The insurance company pays you $45k and takes the car away so you loan is no longer secured and you have to come up with an additional $10k to pay off the loan, which you may not have laying around. Now where do you go to get a 122% loan on a new $45k car so you can have a comparable car again?

I'm not saying the insurance company has to pay you the extra $10k, but you are not in "exactly the same situation as what you were in the day before the accident."

If multiple things go wrong for the person it could end up causing them to go into bankruptcy. (Unlikely but possible.)

 

[GenSao]

The OP who generated this graph also knows he is missing some information (he's (@GenSao ) asked for clarification). Specifically, this graph does not capture the P3D Stealth and P3D+ price differential, and the funny business that occurred around FUSC and the various price drops and elimination of the P3D Stealth in late October 2018.

I strive to make the graph as accurate as possible and requested clarification. The goal of the chart is to simply track "base price" available to order. The minimum price to order a particular trim excludes optional pricing (wheels, colors, P-PUP, AP, EAP, FSF, etc.).

Price adjustments for the difference between P+ vs P- ($5K P-PUP) is not tracked as it was an optional feature. The optional $5K P-PUP was eventually included in the base Model 3 Performance at no change to the "base price". If it was a mandatory option, then I am open to updating the graph.

Feel free to check out the graph, data, and references at Google Sheets.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Price adjustments for the difference between P+ vs P- ($5K P-PUP) is not tracked as it was an optional feature. The optional $5K PUP was eventually included in the price of the base Model 3 Performance at no change to the "base price". If it was a mandatory option, the I am open to updating the graph.

Yeah, I know you asked for clarification - I did try to clarify what happened in that other thread for you. It is super confusing so not surprised it's a bit hard to get straight.

In late October 2018 P3D+ became a mandatory option. Prior to that it was two distinct Performance models. I would argue that probably you should just track the "top line" P3D+ model minus any options, since that has always been available. The P3D Stealth comes and goes.

In addition, excluding driver assistance options (specifically the AP, EAP, and FSD options) is perilous for these comparisons, because Tesla is playing a bit of a game with these, including them in base price, then increasing FSD price while reducing base price (to try to get takers I would think). So to get the true picture I think you have to include the FSD price. But it is hard to say - depends on your goals.

You definitely need to find a way to account for the value of FUSC on the P3D Stealth /P3D+ models when plotting the pricing. The value of that for most buyers (order prior to ~September 18th 2018) was $5k. The value is $5k because P3D buyers who had it could give it back and get $5k from Tesla.

It's a tricky thing you're trying to get a handle on. Thanks for doing it!

 

[sperkin]

What's wrong with insurance company pays you enough to buy a car that is exactly the same as the one that was wrecked? It will be exactly the same situation for you as what it was the day before the accident, including how much you have owed. Again you're thinking the insurance should cover the depreciation that has nothing to do with the accident.

I am saying they don’t cover depreciation so this is why there is a 7-10k gap. They give you money on what the car is worth, and not buying you a new car.

 

[daniel]

No, that is NOT how subsidies work at all. Who receives the benefit depends on how much buyers want the vehicles. This is called price elasticity of demand.

Guess what? All of the whiney early adopters who cry about price changes desperately wanted a Tesla so that means in THIS case the benefit did mostly go to Tesla.

So I think you are agreeing with me. Thanks.

And while I openly criticize the things I think Tesla got wrong, I always conclude with the fact that this is the best car ever built and worth every penny I paid for it.

... Insurance always low balls so they will pay you at current values with is like $7-10k lower that what you bought the car for.

Which is one of the reasons I consider it a poor idea to buy the cheapest insurance.

 

[CarlK]

Some people seem never can get the logic right.

Before the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3.

After the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3 (long as the insurance pays you enough to purchase a similar car).

Follow some of you running weird circles made my head hurt.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Some people seem never can get the logic right.

Before the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3.

After the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3 (long as the insurance pays you enough to purchase a similar car).

Follow some of you running weird circles made my head hurt.

I think the issue is that many Tesla owners live hand to mouth. The lender requires you to pay the balance of the loan once the collateral is gone. That's why insurers sell GAP instance, to cover that difference. If you're a Tesla owner with a loan and no liquidity it would be advisable to purchase GAP insurance.

 

[Knightshade]

Some people seem never can get the logic right.

Before the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3.

After the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3 (long as the insurance pays you enough to purchase a similar car).

Follow some of you running weird circles made my head hurt.

Without the Model 3 from the original loan you have 45k you need to pay off right now since there's no longer anything securing the loan. (Well, 45k minus however much insurance ACTUALLY gave you, which might be a lot less than 45k)

That's the part you're missing.

Which if they give you less than 45k to get your replacement model 3 after the accident is a problem if you don't have GAP insurance and don't have potentially many thousands in spare cash on hand.


Then it's on you to go get another Model 3, with negative money.

 

[wdolson]

I know this thread has been going awhile, but I just noticed it. Someone else may have made this point already, but a lawsuit is going to get you nowhere. There are other products out there that drop in price, sometimes sharply, as time time goes on.

Just about all electronic devices go down in price over time. It's not unusual that a new phone or something like that will come out at a very high price and a year later the same hardware is 1/2 the price or less. Over the three years I've had my Model S, the closest to equivalent price to the car I bought (the new car has 70 more miles range and AP2, but no free supercharging and no body color roof) costs around $20K less than I paid.

It does push down the resale price a bit, but I think it's a good thing. Tesla is cutting the cost of making the car and passing the savings on to new customers. That's a heck of a lot fairer on all their customers than artificially keeping prices high to keep a handful of early adopters happy.

In all but a very few, rare cases, cars are a depreciating asset. If you're buying a car expecting it to hold it's value, you're a fool. You may get lucky and get a car that ends up worth more than you paid for it, or just break even, but that's rare and never happens for a mass produced car. If you want your investment to be worth as much after a year, I suggest sticking it in the bank.

OK, you paid more for your car than someone buying now, but think of the extra months of enjoyment you got that a new buyer didn't have.

 

[ucmndd]

Some people seem never can get the logic right.

Before the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3.

After the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3 (long as the insurance pays you enough to purchase a similar car).

Follow some of you running weird circles made my head hurt.

Lol, no.

Before the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3.

After the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off
2. Your insurance gives you fair market value for your Model 3, which may or may not be $45k. If less, the difference is on you (or your GAP insurance if you have it).
3. You have no car and must purchase a new one with a new loan.

 

[DB-Cooper]

So you'd need to add the $6000 FSD package to the $58,190 car to be equivalent in function....which gets you to $64,190 for a functionally equivalent car today.

Compared to $65,200 that doesn't seem much of a hit.

(and even less of one if you're not account for the $350 in hardware new cars don't come with but yours did- or the $200 higher destination fee new cars come with- or the lifetime data you got if you ordered before July 1, 2018 if you did so...plus any gas savings since you got the Tesla then instead of now....)

I disagree. FSD still costs me $6K, and while based on today's technology EAP and FSD are the same, in 2-3 years, EAP will be forgotten and not valued by anyone any more than AP. Maybe it has some value, but it'll still be $6K away from FSD.

 

[Knightshade]

I disagree. FSD still costs me $6K, and while based on today's technology EAP and FSD are the same, in 2-3 years, EAP will be forgotten and not valued by anyone any more than AP. Maybe it has some value, but it'll still be $6K away from FSD.

Not sure how you can disagree given my statement was "you'd need to add the $6000 FSD package to the $58,190 car to be equivalent in function" (to a last year EAP car).

If you want all the functions EAP has, on a brand new Tesla, today, you need to pay 6k for FSD. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.


Nobody's really discussing 3 years from now in a thread about current prices vs last years prices. (though if you are concerned about that for EAP owners, Elon already mentioned it'll only be 3k to add it to an EAP car- AFAIK they haven't updated the online system to reflect that yet though)

 

[Leafdriver333]

I think Elon will start selling Gap insurance next week.
That I would call self sustaining business model.

 

[Jedi2155]

I'm thankful I bought GAP insurance and tried to put as small of a down payment as possible on my car. I still owe more than $60k on my P3D after almost a year....the low interest rate (1.74%) made it quite reasonable to do so although its only a 4 year loan so that protection is going away fast. In retrospect I think a 5-6 year loan may have been more safe with GAP.

 

[dragonxt]

Washing your car "extra good" does not make it more valuable.

What did you think my point was?

So you'd need to add the $6000 FSD package to the $58,190 car to be equivalent in function....which gets you to $64,190 for a functionally equivalent car today.

Compared to $65,200 that doesn't seem much of a hit.

(and even less of one if you're not account for the $350 in hardware new cars don't come with but yours did- or the $200 higher destination fee new cars come with- or the lifetime data you got if you ordered before July 1, 2018 if you did so...plus any gas savings since you got the Tesla then instead of now....)

And some of us got more adapters as well

I disagree. FSD still costs me $6K, and while based on today's technology EAP and FSD are the same, in 2-3 years, EAP will be forgotten and not valued by anyone any more than AP. Maybe it has some value, but it'll still be $6K away from FSD.

It still costs 6k today, even though AP is included FSD is a 6k add-on. It needs to be factored in. Perhaps if your car only has EAP and current cars have regular AP standard that is a bit of a gray area, but functionality wise, 6k is 6k.

 

[sperkin]

Some people seem never can get the logic right.

Before the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3.

After the accident.
1. You owe someone $45K you'll need to pay off.
2. You have a model 3 (long as the insurance pays you enough to purchase a similar car).

Follow some of you running weird circles made my head hurt.

Some have already replied, but you should speak with your insurance agent.

Insursnce will not buy you a car. They will write you a check on blue book value which will be less than what you owe on your car unless you put 20-25% downpayment. Most loans are paid interest so 1st year you hardly pay off the principal. I believe many Model 3 owners are upside down. Meaning they owe more than what the car is worth. The price cut just cut your cars value by 7-10k.

Also, trying to stay on OP's topic. We will lose in a lawsuit. We agreed to pay the negotiated price when we signed the contract. No way we can sue and win.

 

[Nocturnal]

So I think you are agreeing with me. Thanks.

And while I openly criticize the things I think Tesla got wrong, I always conclude with the fact that this is the best car ever built and worth every penny I paid for it.



Which is one of the reasons I consider it a poor idea to buy the cheapest insurance.

Well, sort of. That's what happened in this particular case, I took exception with your general statement though.

Not sure how you can disagree given my statement was "you'd need to add the $6000 FSD package to the $58,190 car to be equivalent in function" (to a last year EAP car).

If you want all the functions EAP has, on a brand new Tesla, today, you need to pay 6k for FSD. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.


Nobody's really discussing 3 years from now in a thread about current prices vs last years prices. (though if you are concerned about that for EAP owners, Elon already mentioned it'll only be 3k to add it to an EAP car- AFAIK they haven't updated the online system to reflect that yet though)

That isn't apples and oranges because that also gives you actual FSD as well. The only overlap is Nav on Autopilot and enhanced summon. I had purchased EAP in November and bought FSD for a 2k add on in February. ​

 

[Daniel in SD]