This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[ewoodrick]

The speed assist (or whatever it's called, can't remember at the moment) can be turned off can't it? Just go back to manually adjusting the speed like you did before 12.3. Not really worth trading for a different vehicle cause of it.

It can be turned off, but it doesn't totally revert back to the previous functionality. You do go back to the legacy settings, but the car still decides how fast it wants to drive at times.

 

[arichard2401]

Warning: long detailed post ahead so get comfy if you choose to read it. I broke it up a little bit for those who want to read certain aspects.

► Overview:
This may be an unpopular opinion in this pro-Tesla community with many members to whom Tesla can do no wrong. I know that Tesla wants to get people to experience it in hopes they'll fall in love with it and not only buy it but tell others all about how amazing it is. The problem with this is that it's not there yet. Maybe one day, years from now, it will be. It's not there yet. So what they're doing is forcing people who have likely not experienced any form of AP themselves to experience full FSD as their first "dip of the toe into water" so to speak. This isn't a good idea. Those who have never experienced anything other than cruise control (I'm old enough to remember when this was a hotly contested feature along the lines of Autopilot) will be overwhelmed and not in the positive way that Elon thinks.


► Prime example:
A good friend of mine who's very into vehicles and tech who's also a smart fella bought himself a Model Y about 6-7 months ago. He'd been in our Teslas numerous times but had never really experienced any of the driver's aids himself. Just heard us talk about it so had at least an idea of what to expect with his. He took delivery and had 3-months of FSD trial. Gave it an honest trial and hated it. Now he will ONLY use TACC and nothing I can say about how great TACC + Lane Keep is will get him to even consider trying it again. I would label him as an average consumer, probably on the younger or more tech advanced side who would be most receptive to trying this sort of thing. In other words, the exact consumer Tesla is trying to convert. It's having the opposite effect based on new owners that I've talked to.


► Our first hand experience:
In my experience it's trash. I was pretty excited to get it as we have a trip coming up to Dallas which is an awful place to drive... even with good navigation which Teslas have. I was excited for the prospect of letting the car do the driving for us. We took delivery of our new Model Y that included the 1-month that everyone is currently getting along with the 3-months for self-referring for a total of 4 months. I even bragged to my wife when I discovered that those stacked when I was afraid they might overlap and I'd "only" get 3 months of use. I even joked that I sure hope I didn't get addicted and then feel compelled to buy it for $12k.

I went ahead and enabled it along with all of the related whiz-bang features, bells & whistles. We had a few hours worth of driving to do (city and highway both) so I thought it would be a great test since it was in areas we lived in and near so I knew them well.

At first I thought it was neat. But the more I used it, the worse it got. I had "Mad Max" and "Aggressive" set and the car was anything but those. Whenever it encountered a stop sign at an intersection, even if there was no cars or pedestrians in site, it would come to a full stop some 15ft before the line, wait about 5 seconds and then slowly creep forward to the line before stopping AGAIN. Why? What's the purpose of this. Then, it would proceed to take another 20 seconds or so to slowly make the turn through the intersection.

This was if there was ZERO cars, pedestrians or anything I would consider needed to be accounted for. Just a ghost town, an intersection and a single Tesla w/FSD enabled. In other words, a best case scenario. In all of these instances I didn't have someone behind me (thankfully) so I gave it full freedom to sort itself out. It was laughable.

This would magnified dramatically if there was any type of foliage, fence or other obstructions that was even close to the intersection. Not even in the line of site but just existed. It would creep a foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, wait 5 seconds... you get the point. It did this every. single. time. It was painful.

At one point, it tried to take us the wrong way down a one-way exit from a parking lot. I had to take over, stop it, reverse backwards back into the lot as cars were trying to exist a very busy road into the parking lot and had to sit and wait on me to sort things out since the lane was only wide enough for one vehicle, marked clearly as exit only multiple ways and curved for traffic coming into the parking lot.

On 4-lane highways it was doing all sorts of unexpected things. On one stretch of 65mph road we were the only vehicle within about a mile in any direction and, seemingly for no reason, it changed lanes from the right lane to the left lane. I assumed it wanted to be there so I just let it do it's things. About 30 seconds after establishing itself in the left lane, it then signaled and went back to the right lane, seemingly for no reason once again. I jokingly said it just passed a ghost car that wasn't there because it's behavior was about what you'd expect from passing a car on the highway doing a few mph less... but there was no car there.

Then, not 5min later, I came up on a car that was doing about 50mph in a 65mph zone. I had the offset of the car set to 11% so I was doing 72mph. The car came up behind the slower car and simply decreased speed to follow it at a safe distance at 50mph. There was not another car anywhere near us. I left it there for almost 2-painful-minutes to give it ample time to pass the slower car safely. I finally took over and manually passed to car to kick it back up to speed. Keep in mind that I have every user-setting available set to the most aggressive version possible as I'm not faint-of-heart when it comes to driving plus I've owned 9 Teslas now... 8 with AP of one form or another.

The last straw for me was a series of nanny alerts telling me to keep my eyes on the road to include one where it warned me to keep my eyes on the road after turning my head to check my blind spot before passing another car on a 4-lane highway. I had to look at the screen to see what it was on about and when I realized it wanted me to watch the road I looked back up to the road. Out of the corner of my eye I saw it go away so I knew I had satisfied it. It wasn't 10 seconds later I needed to look back at the screen since FSD was doing all sorts of weird things with the speed limit (it wouldn't recognize 65mph signs and would keep the "seen" sign at 45mph for a single multi-mile stretch that had several different 65mph signs along the way) to include going way above or way below my set speed (even after I disabled the stupid "auto speed based on other traffic" feature available in FSD) so I looked at the screen to check my current speed was where I wanted it. No joke, as I moved my eyes from the road to the speed limit it popped up again.. in that same instant.

I was pretty upset with it at this point. My first thought was "if I get 5 strikes or whatever it is... will I also lose base Autopilot as a punishment as well?" because I wasn't sure. It's not clear. As I was considering being w/o the Base Autopilot for our upcoming road trip and how annoying that would be we came up on a stop light. We were in the left lane and there was no cars in front of us. In the right lane was a single car that was already at a stop at the red light. The car made a borderline aggressive stop to signal and get behind the stopped car. Why? On the heals of the nanny BS in the previous paragraph that was it for me. I was done with this little experience. I went back to the middle option that is basically TACC and Lane keep, disabled all of the other "features" below that and effectively took our car back to Base Autopilot as best as possible.


► Conclusion:
All this FSD trial period did for me was confirm that FSD was laughable at $12k. I truly feel for all of those who paid for it. Even in 2024 many years after we were promised robo-taxis would be the norm. Tesla needs to stop forcing the unfinished version of FSD onto the average car driver. Simply put: it's terrifying in it's current state. People are already uneasy about letting a "computer" drive for them (with good reason) and then you reinforce this assumption with a dreadful and downright dangerous experience where the safety and very lives of them and their loved ones are at risk. Most don't realize that there are version short of FSD that actually offer a tremendous driver experience and a wonderful entry into letting a "computer" assist them with driving a car. Not only do they not need to force FSD in it's current stage upon the average consumer but they also need to stop working functions for future functions that aren't yet ready.

I've a similar experience as you. I've noticed the speed limit thing as well. It seems to just randomly decide that the speed limit is different, and not even from seeing a sign. I use TACC and Autosteer all the time and have never noticed the speed limit issues like on FSD.

Probably going to get flamed but I really just don't see what the point is. Sure some parts of it are pretty impressive, like how it handles blind right turns by creeping out until it can see. But to me it's like having a 15 year old learner drive me around. I have to constantly supervise it, and I spend more brainpower resetting my speed all the time and monitoring the car than I would if I just drove it myself. I can also navigate quickly and more efficiently myself. Auto lane change is really the only useful feature. I love my Model Y, TACC and Autosteer are great, I use them all the time. But I just don't see what the point of FSD is, it doesn't save any brainpower or time.

 

[GateFather]

Warning: long detailed post ahead so get comfy if you choose to read it. I broke it up a little bit for those who want to read certain aspects.

► Overview:
This may be an unpopular opinion in this pro-Tesla community with many members to whom Tesla can do no wrong. I know that Tesla wants to get people to experience it in hopes they'll fall in love with it and not only buy it but tell others all about how amazing it is. The problem with this is that it's not there yet. Maybe one day, years from now, it will be. It's not there yet. So what they're doing is forcing people who have likely not experienced any form of AP themselves to experience full FSD as their first "dip of the toe into water" so to speak. This isn't a good idea. Those who have never experienced anything other than cruise control (I'm old enough to remember when this was a hotly contested feature along the lines of Autopilot) will be overwhelmed and not in the positive way that Elon thinks.


► Prime example:
A good friend of mine who's very into vehicles and tech who's also a smart fella bought himself a Model Y about 6-7 months ago. He'd been in our Teslas numerous times but had never really experienced any of the driver's aids himself. Just heard us talk about it so had at least an idea of what to expect with his. He took delivery and had 3-months of FSD trial. Gave it an honest trial and hated it. Now he will ONLY use TACC and nothing I can say about how great TACC + Lane Keep is will get him to even consider trying it again. I would label him as an average consumer, probably on the younger or more tech advanced side who would be most receptive to trying this sort of thing. In other words, the exact consumer Tesla is trying to convert. It's having the opposite effect based on new owners that I've talked to.


► Our first hand experience:
In my experience it's trash. I was pretty excited to get it as we have a trip coming up to Dallas which is an awful place to drive... even with good navigation which Teslas have. I was excited for the prospect of letting the car do the driving for us. We took delivery of our new Model Y that included the 1-month that everyone is currently getting along with the 3-months for self-referring for a total of 4 months. I even bragged to my wife when I discovered that those stacked when I was afraid they might overlap and I'd "only" get 3 months of use. I even joked that I sure hope I didn't get addicted and then feel compelled to buy it for $12k.

I went ahead and enabled it along with all of the related whiz-bang features, bells & whistles. We had a few hours worth of driving to do (city and highway both) so I thought it would be a great test since it was in areas we lived in and near so I knew them well.

At first I thought it was neat. But the more I used it, the worse it got. I had "Mad Max" and "Aggressive" set and the car was anything but those. Whenever it encountered a stop sign at an intersection, even if there was no cars or pedestrians in site, it would come to a full stop some 15ft before the line, wait about 5 seconds and then slowly creep forward to the line before stopping AGAIN. Why? What's the purpose of this. Then, it would proceed to take another 20 seconds or so to slowly make the turn through the intersection.

This was if there was ZERO cars, pedestrians or anything I would consider needed to be accounted for. Just a ghost town, an intersection and a single Tesla w/FSD enabled. In other words, a best case scenario. In all of these instances I didn't have someone behind me (thankfully) so I gave it full freedom to sort itself out. It was laughable.

This would magnified dramatically if there was any type of foliage, fence or other obstructions that was even close to the intersection. Not even in the line of site but just existed. It would creep a foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, wait 5 seconds... you get the point. It did this every. single. time. It was painful.

At one point, it tried to take us the wrong way down a one-way exit from a parking lot. I had to take over, stop it, reverse backwards back into the lot as cars were trying to exist a very busy road into the parking lot and had to sit and wait on me to sort things out since the lane was only wide enough for one vehicle, marked clearly as exit only multiple ways and curved for traffic coming into the parking lot.

On 4-lane highways it was doing all sorts of unexpected things. On one stretch of 65mph road we were the only vehicle within about a mile in any direction and, seemingly for no reason, it changed lanes from the right lane to the left lane. I assumed it wanted to be there so I just let it do it's things. About 30 seconds after establishing itself in the left lane, it then signaled and went back to the right lane, seemingly for no reason once again. I jokingly said it just passed a ghost car that wasn't there because it's behavior was about what you'd expect from passing a car on the highway doing a few mph less... but there was no car there.

Then, not 5min later, I came up on a car that was doing about 50mph in a 65mph zone. I had the offset of the car set to 11% so I was doing 72mph. The car came up behind the slower car and simply decreased speed to follow it at a safe distance at 50mph. There was not another car anywhere near us. I left it there for almost 2-painful-minutes to give it ample time to pass the slower car safely. I finally took over and manually passed to car to kick it back up to speed. Keep in mind that I have every user-setting available set to the most aggressive version possible as I'm not faint-of-heart when it comes to driving plus I've owned 9 Teslas now... 8 with AP of one form or another.

The last straw for me was a series of nanny alerts telling me to keep my eyes on the road to include one where it warned me to keep my eyes on the road after turning my head to check my blind spot before passing another car on a 4-lane highway. I had to look at the screen to see what it was on about and when I realized it wanted me to watch the road I looked back up to the road. Out of the corner of my eye I saw it go away so I knew I had satisfied it. It wasn't 10 seconds later I needed to look back at the screen since FSD was doing all sorts of weird things with the speed limit (it wouldn't recognize 65mph signs and would keep the "seen" sign at 45mph for a single multi-mile stretch that had several different 65mph signs along the way) to include going way above or way below my set speed (even after I disabled the stupid "auto speed based on other traffic" feature available in FSD) so I looked at the screen to check my current speed was where I wanted it. No joke, as I moved my eyes from the road to the speed limit it popped up again.. in that same instant.

I was pretty upset with it at this point. My first thought was "if I get 5 strikes or whatever it is... will I also lose base Autopilot as a punishment as well?" because I wasn't sure. It's not clear. As I was considering being w/o the Base Autopilot for our upcoming road trip and how annoying that would be we came up on a stop light. We were in the left lane and there was no cars in front of us. In the right lane was a single car that was already at a stop at the red light. The car made a borderline aggressive stop to signal and get behind the stopped car. Why? On the heals of the nanny BS in the previous paragraph that was it for me. I was done with this little experience. I went back to the middle option that is basically TACC and Lane keep, disabled all of the other "features" below that and effectively took our car back to Base Autopilot as best as possible.


► Conclusion:
All this FSD trial period did for me was confirm that FSD was laughable at $12k. I truly feel for all of those who paid for it. Even in 2024 many years after we were promised robo-taxis would be the norm. Tesla needs to stop forcing the unfinished version of FSD onto the average car driver. Simply put: it's terrifying in it's current state. People are already uneasy about letting a "computer" drive for them (with good reason) and then you reinforce this assumption with a dreadful and downright dangerous experience where the safety and very lives of them and their loved ones are at risk. Most don't realize that there are version short of FSD that actually offer a tremendous driver experience and a wonderful entry into letting a "computer" assist them with driving a car. Not only do they not need to force FSD in it's current stage upon the average consumer but they also need to stop working functions for future functions that aren't yet ready.

I have been using "FSD" since 2019 (paid $5000 for Enhanced Autopilot when I bought that car then another $2000 to upgrade to FSD when they had it for a short 2 week window back in 2019 or 2020). My model 3 was also part of the early access. I've been through/seen a lot of it and would agree with you that it was generally unusable as any type of real FSD and more of a novelty to "see what it would do for a laugh" in most cases or a game to see how far it could get me without an intervention. However, my 2023 Model Y (which I transferred the Model 3's FSD to) just got the v12 update a few nights ago and I have taken it out for a handful of drives. All I can say is WOW. Small things like when cars up ahead are making a left where FSD used to slam on the breaks and then wait 3-5 seconds to start going after the person made the turn now do not happen. The car cruises on, anticipating the turn ahead and only slows down as needed like I would. Even better, as the car starts to turn it accelerates forward like I would. Lots of little things like this are fixed. The one thing not fixed? STOP SIGNS....here's why.....

The NHTSA will not allow Tesla to have the car function like "people do" at stop signs where, the vast majority of normal drivers are actually breaking the law. By law, you have to stop behind the stop sign, then inch up and stop again until you can see traffic in both directions before going. Sound familiar? The car is doing this because Tesla was mandated to make it do this. In fact, in V12 where the way the car drives is not the result of thousands of C++ code but rather ML based, Tesla had to pain-stakenly find driving examples of the very very few drivers in the world who follow the stop sign rule to a T. This means they are intentionally telling the car NOT to do the "normal" albeit breaking the law method, but instead the legal method that actually is the outlier amongst normal drivers. So for that, don't blame FSD or Tesla, blame the NHTSA. Other than that, so far, V12 has been markedly better in many many situations driving around.

 

[kabin]

Nobody is being forced. Dramatic much?

People without it are being shown how it works and given an opportunity to experience it. That is all. Use it. Don’t use it. Completely up to each individual.

He has many valid points and took the time to do a thoughtful write up. Kudos to him.

 

[JB47394]

It's still beta software. It hasn't been released yet.

No longer beta. Now it's "supervised" in the Autopilot section of the vehicle controls. On the order page, there are no qualifications at all.

The speed assist (or whatever it's called, can't remember at the moment) can be turned off can't it? Just go back to manually adjusting the speed like you did before 12.3. Not really worth trading for a different vehicle cause of it.

V12 won't abide by our speed selections the way V11 did. V12 actively selects the speed based on driving conditions. All we can do is set a manual limit on the maximum speed. In my experience, V12 has problems with being too conservative, not too aggressive. Others say that it'll get pretty aggressive.

Before anyone asks, I drive with Assertive.

 

[GateFather]

No longer beta. Now it's "supervised" in the Autopilot section of the vehicle controls. On the order page, there are no qualifications at all.


V12 won't abide by our speed selections the way V11 did. V12 actively selects the speed based on driving conditions. All we can do is set a manual limit on the maximum speed. In my experience, V12 has problems with being too conservative, not too aggressive. Others say that it'll get pretty aggressive.

Before anyone asks, I drive with Assertive.

I've found it being too aggressive, adequately aggressive, and at other times not aggressive enough over the course of a drive. I found myself wanting to turn it down, for example when it was going 29 in a neighborhood where the speed limit is 25 (i never go over 25 in residential areas) but wanted it to go more than 42 on a 45mph road. Lot of other times it was going 55 or 57 on a 50mph road which seemed good. It seemed to also want to keep up with traffic up to my max a handfull of times which is also good.

 

[Vines]

I took my first day drive in FSD 12.3.2.1 and have been pretty impressed. I am not quite ready to throw money at it but I am pretty close.

I asked my co-worker who doesnt use any fsd to give it a try in their Tesla and will see what their response is.

From the perspective of someone who bought FSD in the fire sale, used it a few years and didn't buy it on my 2023 Model Y I am extremely impressed.

For the last year or so I have used only enhanced autopilot and since I drive only 3-4 miles of surface streets on my daily commute EAP handles the majority of the driving that I want.

The most impressive improvement is over Hwy 17 between Santa Cruz and Los Gatos, because it drives so human-like. There is no more of the hunting around corners, especially as the suspension compresses. Setting the speed was great and it went up to 12 mph over the limit when safe. The only (but very) frustrating part of 17 was when it missed the "Truck" part of the speed limit sign and the max setting went to 35 mph!!

On city streets it does seem to have some significant lane confusion that it didn't have before.

However in parking lots it is much improved. When It pulled into the driveway at work, I stopped and it autoparked into my charging spot I was very impressed. I liked the way we could select the parking spots that were available on screen easily.

The most impressive part is that I can tell the car is looking ahead more effectively/efficiently. I came upon cross traffic when FSD was traveling at about 55, which just crossed into my path the same moment they became visible. In the past, the car would seem to not even notice a potential collision, and carry on, then much too late would slam on the brakes after the cross traffic was already crossed. It was clear in these instances the hardware wasn't processing the issue soon enough, and the late response was an indication of that.

This time, FSD touched the brakes ever so slightly when the car started crossing my path, and it honestly saw the car just before or right as I saw it. Because the crossing car was well out of our path by the time we crossed paths, there was no further slowdown or danger.

If I had been using FSD for the last 12 months the difference wouldn't be so stark

 

[KelvinMace]

Nobody is being forced. Dramatic much?

People without it are being shown how it works and given an opportunity to experience it. That is all. Use it. Don’t use it. Completely up to each individual.

The problem is, that once it installs, it breaks TACC so that it now stops at green lights. Also, the update pesters you to install it.

 

[KelvinMace]

Warning: long detailed post ahead so get comfy if you choose to read it. I broke it up a little bit for those who want to read certain aspects.

► Overview:
This may be an unpopular opinion in this pro-Tesla community with many members to whom Tesla can do no wrong. I know that Tesla wants to get people to experience it in hopes they'll fall in love with it and not only buy it but tell others all about how amazing it is. The problem with this is that it's not there yet. Maybe one day, years from now, it will be. It's not there yet. So what they're doing is forcing people who have likely not experienced any form of AP themselves to experience full FSD as their first "dip of the toe into water" so to speak. This isn't a good idea. Those who have never experienced anything other than cruise control (I'm old enough to remember when this was a hotly contested feature along the lines of Autopilot) will be overwhelmed and not in the positive way that Elon thinks.


► Prime example:
A good friend of mine who's very into vehicles and tech who's also a smart fella bought himself a Model Y about 6-7 months ago. He'd been in our Teslas numerous times but had never really experienced any of the driver's aids himself. Just heard us talk about it so had at least an idea of what to expect with his. He took delivery and had 3-months of FSD trial. Gave it an honest trial and hated it. Now he will ONLY use TACC and nothing I can say about how great TACC + Lane Keep is will get him to even consider trying it again. I would label him as an average consumer, probably on the younger or more tech advanced side who would be most receptive to trying this sort of thing. In other words, the exact consumer Tesla is trying to convert. It's having the opposite effect based on new owners that I've talked to.


► Our first hand experience:
In my experience it's trash. I was pretty excited to get it as we have a trip coming up to Dallas which is an awful place to drive... even with good navigation which Teslas have. I was excited for the prospect of letting the car do the driving for us. We took delivery of our new Model Y that included the 1-month that everyone is currently getting along with the 3-months for self-referring for a total of 4 months. I even bragged to my wife when I discovered that those stacked when I was afraid they might overlap and I'd "only" get 3 months of use. I even joked that I sure hope I didn't get addicted and then feel compelled to buy it for $12k.

I went ahead and enabled it along with all of the related whiz-bang features, bells & whistles. We had a few hours worth of driving to do (city and highway both) so I thought it would be a great test since it was in areas we lived in and near so I knew them well.

At first I thought it was neat. But the more I used it, the worse it got. I had "Mad Max" and "Aggressive" set and the car was anything but those. Whenever it encountered a stop sign at an intersection, even if there was no cars or pedestrians in site, it would come to a full stop some 15ft before the line, wait about 5 seconds and then slowly creep forward to the line before stopping AGAIN. Why? What's the purpose of this. Then, it would proceed to take another 20 seconds or so to slowly make the turn through the intersection.

This was if there was ZERO cars, pedestrians or anything I would consider needed to be accounted for. Just a ghost town, an intersection and a single Tesla w/FSD enabled. In other words, a best case scenario. In all of these instances I didn't have someone behind me (thankfully) so I gave it full freedom to sort itself out. It was laughable.

This would magnified dramatically if there was any type of foliage, fence or other obstructions that was even close to the intersection. Not even in the line of site but just existed. It would creep a foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, wait 5 seconds... you get the point. It did this every. single. time. It was painful.

At one point, it tried to take us the wrong way down a one-way exit from a parking lot. I had to take over, stop it, reverse backwards back into the lot as cars were trying to exist a very busy road into the parking lot and had to sit and wait on me to sort things out since the lane was only wide enough for one vehicle, marked clearly as exit only multiple ways and curved for traffic coming into the parking lot.

On 4-lane highways it was doing all sorts of unexpected things. On one stretch of 65mph road we were the only vehicle within about a mile in any direction and, seemingly for no reason, it changed lanes from the right lane to the left lane. I assumed it wanted to be there so I just let it do it's things. About 30 seconds after establishing itself in the left lane, it then signaled and went back to the right lane, seemingly for no reason once again. I jokingly said it just passed a ghost car that wasn't there because it's behavior was about what you'd expect from passing a car on the highway doing a few mph less... but there was no car there.

Then, not 5min later, I came up on a car that was doing about 50mph in a 65mph zone. I had the offset of the car set to 11% so I was doing 72mph. The car came up behind the slower car and simply decreased speed to follow it at a safe distance at 50mph. There was not another car anywhere near us. I left it there for almost 2-painful-minutes to give it ample time to pass the slower car safely. I finally took over and manually passed to car to kick it back up to speed. Keep in mind that I have every user-setting available set to the most aggressive version possible as I'm not faint-of-heart when it comes to driving plus I've owned 9 Teslas now... 8 with AP of one form or another.

The last straw for me was a series of nanny alerts telling me to keep my eyes on the road to include one where it warned me to keep my eyes on the road after turning my head to check my blind spot before passing another car on a 4-lane highway. I had to look at the screen to see what it was on about and when I realized it wanted me to watch the road I looked back up to the road. Out of the corner of my eye I saw it go away so I knew I had satisfied it. It wasn't 10 seconds later I needed to look back at the screen since FSD was doing all sorts of weird things with the speed limit (it wouldn't recognize 65mph signs and would keep the "seen" sign at 45mph for a single multi-mile stretch that had several different 65mph signs along the way) to include going way above or way below my set speed (even after I disabled the stupid "auto speed based on other traffic" feature available in FSD) so I looked at the screen to check my current speed was where I wanted it. No joke, as I moved my eyes from the road to the speed limit it popped up again.. in that same instant.

I was pretty upset with it at this point. My first thought was "if I get 5 strikes or whatever it is... will I also lose base Autopilot as a punishment as well?" because I wasn't sure. It's not clear. As I was considering being w/o the Base Autopilot for our upcoming road trip and how annoying that would be we came up on a stop light. We were in the left lane and there was no cars in front of us. In the right lane was a single car that was already at a stop at the red light. The car made a borderline aggressive stop to signal and get behind the stopped car. Why? On the heals of the nanny BS in the previous paragraph that was it for me. I was done with this little experience. I went back to the middle option that is basically TACC and Lane keep, disabled all of the other "features" below that and effectively took our car back to Base Autopilot as best as possible.


► Conclusion:
All this FSD trial period did for me was confirm that FSD was laughable at $12k. I truly feel for all of those who paid for it. Even in 2024 many years after we were promised robo-taxis would be the norm. Tesla needs to stop forcing the unfinished version of FSD onto the average car driver. Simply put: it's terrifying in it's current state. People are already uneasy about letting a "computer" drive for them (with good reason) and then you reinforce this assumption with a dreadful and downright dangerous experience where the safety and very lives of them and their loved ones are at risk. Most don't realize that there are version short of FSD that actually offer a tremendous driver experience and a wonderful entry into letting a "computer" assist them with driving a car. Not only do they not need to force FSD in it's current stage upon the average consumer but they also need to stop working functions for future functions that aren't yet ready.

The longer I use it, the more problems surface. Driving over/scraping curbs, changing to a turn lane when it is supposed to go straight, turning in front of another turning car at an intersections, inexplicably slowing down, panic braking over merging traffic in the adjacent lane. Yes, it does improve in some areas, but almost always regresses in others. It is not worth $12K, nor $200 a month. It is barely worth the $3K I paid for it six years ago.

 

[KelvinMace]

Have to agree with the OP. I think Musk’s current attempt to show FSD to the world is going to back fire. To me 12.3 has been much worse than v11 (I'd be happy to trade anecdotes with anyone who thinks v12 is amazing) and has caused me to just give up on FSD beta, and increasingly I’m feeling like I’m over Tesla.

These forums and social media accounts that obsess over Tesla, are not representative of typical consumers let alone typical Tesla consumers. They are the 1% of Tesla fans…the early adopters…the die-hards. I’d bet 95%+ of people who own a vehicle have never visited a vehicle-branded fan forum. You just buy a car and move on with life. The problem is a massive feedback loop and lots and lots of motivated reasoning. It’s like going to a Chicago Cubs forum and talking about how awesome the 2024 Cubs are going to be. It’s objectively not objective. Musk sees influencers raving about how amazing v12 is and then assumes this reflects reality or a typical persons experience (note: this is why you “don’t get high on your own supply”).

I've had every version of FSD beta from 12.3 all the way back to 10.2 in October 2021, so I’ve witnessed the relatively slow pace of progress and various bumps along the way. Sure, over this time it has improved in many ways. And from time to time, I’ll have the fun "no intervention" drive that feels almost like magic. But in reality…anyone who is even mildly self-aware…realizes this whole thing is still just a fun party trick…a novelty for “early adopters.” It’s not a driver assist feature that takes the stress/hazard out of driving...and it's certainly not “FULL self-driving.” If you are at all in a hurry, just want to get to where you are going and don’t want to feel like babysitting your car…you aren’t using FSD. It’s just not reliable enough, and behaves in predictably irregular ways that are often stress inducing (like taking forever at stop signs, making poor lane selections, etc) or distressing to many passengers (jerkiness, improper acceleration/breaking).

The first year or so of playing around with FSD beta, I’ll admit that I got a decent amount of pleasure with it. I tend to be an early adopter of new technology and get joy out of watching technology progress. And it was fan to read peoples experience on these forums. But at some point, the novelty wears off and you just want your car to function in a reliable way.

I feel like I had gotten to a happy medium with FSD beta (not worth $12K, but definitely the initial $2K I paid during the one-time fire sale). I basically used it to overcome many of the shortcomings with regular autopilot. The map data for the area near my house has been ridiculously outdated for a few years due to historical road constitution (long in the past) and autopilot thinks a 65mph zone is 45. The 20-mile route I take to work is posted at 55mph but nobody drives below 65, even when cops are present. So FSD beta allowed me to correct for the 5mph limit in regular autopilot that made these drives more tolerable.

However, 12.3 has finally caused me to lose all faith in the future of Tesla’s FSD effort and actually start looking for a new vehicle. As others have noted…speed control in 12.3 is absurd (and 12.3.1 didn’t fix it) which has turned my drive into a non-stop effort of babysitting...and coaxing FSD to stay at the speed I set. And while lots of anecdotes on these forums suggest 12.3 is much improved, in my experience the improvements are still very marginal (my handful of test cases in the past week actually seemed worse than version 11). Even though we just got a brand-new model Y with the free FSD transfer…I’m seriously considering trading for a new vehicle. At this point all I want is (a) lane keep, (b) adaptive cruise control, and (c) the ability to set the speed at a specific speed limit that I choose…and now FSD has broken this. My mother in-laws 2-year-old Kia has these features (and her auto headlights/wipers work far better).

I think Musk, and Tesla FSD fans, are going to be very surprised when they come to realize…the size of the population interested in the novelty that is currently FSD beta is not that large. And the fact that v12 breaks user speed control…just might be the thing that causes people to rethink whether Tesla is really making any realistic progress at all.

Musk has trapped himself in a feedback bubble which just re-enforces his own biases and opinions. It has led him down the garden path about his own product, and taken him down some very dark rabbit holes of conspiracy mongering.

The one part of the driver assist software that was pretty cool, TACC, is now broken with this update. It used to be wonderful about stopping at stop signs and red lights, but now it stops for green lights.

 

[JB47394]

The longer I use it, the more problems surface.

What model vehicle are you driving?

 

[Jagular]

Thanks @Ostrichsak for your feedback. It seems sincere and well-thought out and I’m sorry you’re getting some backlash. My perspective has changed over time about FSD. My wife and I both have Teslas, an MYP and an M3P, and we both have FSD on the current version as of yesterday (12.3.3). For context, my wife and daughters used to hate FSD while they were in the car with me (as I was the only one using it - my wife would only use Autopilot and she wasn’t really happy with that, either). However, since upgrading to v12 my wife has been using it on city streets quite extensively and, while she gets annoyed on occasion (especially about the speed fluctuations), she’s grown to really like it and she was really happy the night before last (v12.3) when her MYP brought her home from our friend’s place at night (my wife hates to drive at night). It was a 45 minute drive, in the dark, and it brought her home with no interventions. And, while I get frustrated at how cautious v12 is, she really appreciates how careful it is. Also, I’ve driven my daughters now a few times using v12 without them knowing I was using it. With v11 they knew almost immediately when I engaged v11 and insisted I turn it off. With v12, no complaints. So, from my experience, v12 is much, much better than v11. Perfect? Nope. But definitely the best I’ve experienced with FSD to date, fwiw.

 

[KelvinMace]

What model vehicle are you driving?

A 2018 Model 3 RWD. We love the car (my wife drives a 2018 3P), but can't trust FSD. My wife will not update since it it breaks TACC, a feature she loves (as so I).

 

[SidetrackedSue]

She’s grown to really like it and she was really happy the night before last (v12.3) when her MYP brought her home from our friend’s place at night (my wife hates to drive at night). It was a 45 minute drive, in the dark, and it brought her home with no interventions. And, while I get frustrated at how cautious v12 is, she really appreciates how careful it is.

I have to read almost every post about V12 and 90% of them don't apply to me at all. Your wife's previous usage/assessment mirrored mine and her feedback on the V12's night drive is exactly my use-case . Her feedback is very valuable for me.

I still won't be able to try it V12.3.1 until Friday at the earliest as it will be installed on our MY on Thursday, in the middle of a predicted snowstorm. There's a chance the car will be returned to me with V12.3.3 if the service centre blesses me with the update to the latest version, otherwise I'll have to wait a week or so. Up until now I've only been curious (and resigned I had to update) but now I'm hopeful it will help with my use-case.

I don't mind the slow speed, it gives me time to process and react to potential dangers since I'm still supervising the car. Unlike when I taught kids to drive, instead of monitoring what a student driver should see and be aware of/prepared for, this 'student' is seeing more than I am, almost simultaneously, so if the car starts to do something 'off' I need time to figure out if it is seeing something I'm not seeing by checking all mirrors as well as checking the screen to see if the route has been changed. That takes time.

 

[arichard2401]

Musk has trapped himself in a feedback bubble which just re-enforces his own biases and opinions. It has led him down the garden path about his own product, and taken him down some very dark rabbit holes of conspiracy mongering.

I have cynical a theory that the reason he likes it so much is because he never drives himself and FSD is a way for someone to drive him around without having to pay them.

 

[bobbyjae]

I believe FSD came out in 2016 and it's still stuck at Level 2 self driving. Even Mercedes is now at Level 3 (limited up to 40mph, on freeways only). How many years will it take for folks to realize Tesla will never get there, especially with Tesla-Vision?

 

[Jagular]

Hi @bobbyjae, Mercedes’ level 3 is not only limited to 40 mph - on freeways only - but it can’t make fast, sweeping turns on the highway unless there’s a car in front of it so it can follow. Level 3? Sure… I’d argue Tesla Autopilot is already level 3 in capabilities (with the caveat of hands-on-wheel - which I only do when nagged - otherwise my hands are not on the steering wheel) but Tesla doesn’t want to play the autonomy regulation game and/or take on the liability of being a certified level 3 vendor.

 

[bobbyjae]

Hi @bobbyjae, Mercedes’ level 3 is not only limited to 40 mph - on freeways only - but it can’t make fast, sweeping turns on the highway unless there’s a car in front of it so it can follow. Level 3? Sure… I’d argue Tesla Autopilot is already level 3 in capabilities (with the caveat of hands-on-wheel - which I only do when nagged - otherwise my hands are not on the steering wheel) but Tesla doesn’t want to play the autonomy regulation game and/or take on the liability of being a certified level 3 vendor.

Or maybe Tesla is not confident in their system?

MB has cameras, lidar, USS, long-range radar, etc. while my Tesla warns me that my cameras are fogged up.

 

[Jagular]

HA! Yes, MB has all of those things and it will drive you off of a highway bridge if the car in front of it does that too. Also, who drives 40 MPH on an highway? Looking at a few articles, it looks like MB Level 3 is certified in only parts of California and Nevada. Tesla’s FSD can drive anywhere in the country.

 

[CSFTN]

Eight days ago Elon said their FSD training was no longer compute constrained. This means they need more data in order to advancing at the fastest pace possible and get the most out of all those shiny new computers they just bought. In addition, Tesla may be reaching diminishing returns from the pool of beta testers. Elon has discussed this problem several times, saying improvements eventually become logarithmic (very very slow). He also said they probably over-fit to the SF Bay Area (to the detriment of it working well elsewhere). So they need more data from a wider group of people and from other parts of the country.

A day after Elon tells us they need more data, he announces a plan to get a lot more data from new people and from new areas. Most seem to be taking him up on his offer and are giving him more data. This is going exactly as planned. It doesn't seem to be back-firing or counter-productive.

In 2021 Elon said:

We need to make Full Self-Driving work in order for it to be a compelling value proposition.​

​

You seem to agree FSD is not yet actually full self-driving. Tesla is trying to make it work as quickly as humanly possible. The one month free trial for everyone is a part of the plan to eventually get it to work. This is not a Mission Accomplished moment. It's a response to needing more data.

Logarithmic doesn't become very slow ... quite the opposite. Parabolic slows down as it reaches its limit ..