This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[arichard2401]

Why flame you, you just gave a pretty good review. "Being slow and cautious" is far from being bad.
Speed is something that I'm sure will get updated, it's version 1 of the new speed control.

And yep, if you compare it to a 15 year old, then that's pretty awesome that Tesla has gotten the car to drive in less time than it takes a human to learn.

It's still beta software, so it's not expected to be perfect yet.

You're not wrong. I just don't see what the use case is right now, especially for $12k. Yeah it's pretty cool that it can sort of drive itself around supervised. But until it can do it completely unsupervised (or even minimally), I just don't see what the point is. Believe me, I want to like it. I love the idea of punching in "work" or "home" in the navigation and just having it take me there with ease, but that's not what it can do. I don't want to pay $12k for a beta product. I'd pay maybe $1k to opt into a beta with the option of buying in full later. I'll caveat this by saying I'm trying it on roads around Philly, which are not great. But that just furthers my point that I don't see a use case for my personal use of the car.

The speed thing has me totally baffled though, it's worse that autopilot's resetting of the speed. The other day it decided that the 35mph road I was on had a speed limit of 50.

 

[arichard2401]

Another thing I'll note: I just checked my State Farm Drive Safe app for the ride home I took yesterday using FSD. It flagged me for too fast acceleration several times when FSD was in use. I thought it was accelerating fairly quickly from a stop, this just confirms it.

 

[zoomer0056]

I don't want to pay $12k for a beta product. I'd pay maybe $1k to opt into a beta with the option of buying in full later.

You have that option now with the $199 per month subscription.

I've really enjoyed trying the FSD (supervised) trial free month software, it's amazing. But one has to learn how to use it to see what it's good at and not. For me, I like driving and really don't want anything more than TACC.

 

[arichard2401]

You have that option now with the $199 per month subscription.

I've really enjoyed trying the FSD (supervised) trial free month software, it's amazing. But one has to learn how to use it to see what it's good at and not. For me, I like driving and really don't want anything more than TACC.

Yeah, I'm aware, and that's a good point. I did that a while ago on a trip to get Enhanced Autopilot. To me, 200 bucks for a month isn't really worth it though. I'm going to try FSD on a 900 mile road trip in about a week, I'll see how it does but I think I'm like you in that I don't want anything more than TACC (and Autosteer for me). I did wish there was just a way to buy auto lane change by itself, I'd pay a few hundred for that.

 

[Vines]

Day 3 with Supervised FSD has been great. I left it on all day for a drive up to the disc golf course and home, and it was flawless through the whole experience.

Wife even thought it was worth $6k, but I am waiting a coup,e of weeks before deciding to upgrade from EAP to FSD.

This morning I touched the blinker more than any other car controls. I had a no intervention 35 mile commute to work where I touched the blinker 4 times and the accelerator 2 times to nudge speed faster at stop signs and on an unmarked 1.5 lane road.

I am excited again about driving without being frustrated by most of the FSDb limitations. I thought I would hate the new speed control but instead I LOVE it. It will cruise at 15 mph over the limit on highway 17 with good visibilty if the other traffic is doing the same, but more often cruises at 8 over the limit. When it comes to a curve on 17, it slows down ahead of time so smoothly you don't really notice it much, when there are bumps in the turn, you can see the wheel track the suspension compression with gentle input.

It occasionally does cut too close on the inside of the turns and on other drives over highway 17 this was significant enough for me to intervene and move back to the middle instead of putting 1 tire on the white or yellow line.

It is not perfect, but it feels like 99% at least and maybe 99.9%. I could see within 2 years renting it out as a robotaxi where it was required for the rider to sit in the drivers seat and take over if there was a FSD failure of some kind.

 

[zoomer0056]

It will cruise at 15 mph over the limit on highway 17 with good visibilty if the other traffic is doing the same, but more often cruises at 8 over the limit.

I rode a motorcycle from Scottsvalley to Mountainview over Hwy 17 for many years. To trust FSD (supervised) on this road is saying it is very very good.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Huh? Up until now, I have been using it for precisely that. It stopped at stop signs and red lights, even yield signs. There is even a setting to turn the function on and off. I have been using it that way for about 2 years. Worked absolutely flawlessly until the latest V12 update broke it. Now it stops at green lights.

Well, I bought FSD (then called Autopilot) back in 2018 for $3K

@zoomer0056 already covered it, but you have FSD: AP does not stop at stop signs and red lights. There have been sales on FSD, including one in 2018 for $3K (it was $5K or $6K at the time).

 

[ewoodrick]

You're not wrong. I just don't see what the use case is right now, especially for $12k. Yeah it's pretty cool that it can sort of drive itself around supervised. But until it can do it completely unsupervised (or even minimally), I just don't see what the point is. Believe me, I want to like it. I love the idea of punching in "work" or "home" in the navigation and just having it take me there with ease, but that's not what it can do. I don't want to pay $12k for a beta product. I'd pay maybe $1k to opt into a beta with the option of buying in full later. I'll caveat this by saying I'm trying it on roads around Philly, which are not great. But that just furthers my point that I don't see a use case for my personal use of the car.

The speed thing has me totally baffled though, it's worse that autopilot's resetting of the speed. The other day it decided that the 35mph road I was on had a speed limit of 50.

Even with today's limitations, for me FSD takes a LOT of stress off of driving. Sure, you may not think that driving creates stress, but it does. Once you get accustomed to a version of FSD, you tend to know what it can do and what it can't. You can definitely relieve stress.
I'm at the point where I set a destination, review the route and then just let the car go.

Speed thing is pretty good at speeds that aren't 45-55.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Even with today's limitations, for me FSD takes a LOT of stress off of driving. Sure, you may not think that driving creates stress, but it does. Once you get accustomed to a version of FSD, you tend to know what it can do and what it can't. You can definitely relieve stress.

I find that supervising FSDS is more stressful than just driving in moderate traffic, because I normally drive to maintain as much space around me as possible -- large following distances, avoiding driving next to other vehicles -- to give better sight lines, more freedom to maneuver, and more time to manage dangerous situations that may develop. FSDS, even on chill mode, wants to follow too closely, requiring heightened alert more of the time, which increases stress while supervising it.

Where FSDS could be less stressful would be in light traffic. Maybe also as a traffic jam valet, though I have not tried it in that situation yet.

 

[KelvinMace]

@zoomer0056 already covered it, but you have FSD: AP does not stop at stop signs and red lights. There have been sales on FSD, including one in 2018 for $3K (it was $5K or $6K at the time).

My point is that until the v12 update, TACC worked perfectly. Stopped at red lights/stop signs, proceeded through green lights. Now it stops at green lights. My wife's 3P, which is still running v11 (she refuses to update because of this very problem), still works fine stopping when it should for signs and lights, proceeding through green lights as it should (even when no one is in front of her).

 

[zoomer0056]

large following distances

How many car lengths is this?

 

[zoomer0056]

TACC worked perfectly. Stopped at red lights/stop signs,

Modern basic Autopilot only stops if the car it's following stops. When saying it stops at stop signs and red lights, it's important to give the car's firmware version and year.

 

[ewoodrick]

I find that supervising FSDS is more stressful than just driving in moderate traffic, because I normally drive to maintain as much space around me as possible -- large following distances, avoiding driving next to other vehicles -- to give better sight lines, more freedom to maneuver, and more time to manage dangerous situations that may develop. FSDS, even on chill mode, wants to follow too closely, requiring heightened alert more of the time, which increases stress while supervising it.

Where FSDS could be less stressful would be in light traffic. Maybe also as a traffic jam valet, though I have not tried it in that situation yet.

How long have you been driving with it? i.e. How much trust do you have in it.

My experience is that it handles traffic much better than I do. It's ALWAYS paying attention to the road and specifically the cars in front of me.

 

[ewoodrick]

My point is that until the v12 update, TACC worked perfectly. Stopped at red lights/stop signs, proceeded through green lights. Now it stops at green lights. My wife's 3P, which is still running v11 (she refuses to update because of this very problem), still works fine stopping when it should for signs and lights, proceeding through green lights as it should (even when no one is in front of her).

What color is the light in the visualization? Is there any pop-up messages indicating what the car is doing?

 

[3sr+buyer]

How many car lengths is this?

2-3 seconds, as opposed to about 1 second that FSDS on chill mode tends to follow at.

 

[3sr+buyer]

How long have you been driving with it? i.e. How much trust do you have in it.

Since it is only level 2 and requires supervision, I do not trust it enough to relax alertness while supervising it. Since it tends to drive closer to other vehicles than I do, it requires heightened alertness most of the time in moderate traffic.

Also, the very first time I used it, I had to force disengage it to prevent it from making an unsafe lane change in front of a rapidly overtaking vehicle, So that adds another level of distrust for its driving skills.

 

[ewoodrick]

Since it is only level 2 and requires supervision, I do not trust it enough to relax alertness while supervising it. Since it tends to drive closer to other vehicles than I do, it requires heightened alertness most of the time in moderate traffic.

Also, the very first time I used it, I had to force disengage it to prevent it from making an unsafe lane change in front of a rapidly overtaking vehicle, So that adds another level of distrust for its driving skills.

That's what I was expecting.

When following a vehicle, the car can stop in significantly less time that when you are driving the car. Yes, I agree, since you are still in control, it would be nice to be able to extend the distance. But it can start the braking action seconds before some humans would. It's constantly looking at the vehicle.

The car can indeed make lane changes when cars are approaching. And yes, it can cause the approaching vehicle to significantly decrease speed (but then again, they were probably significantly above the speed limit). But the car does take this into consideration with FSD and I've seen it signal a lane change, start the lane change, but then realize that the approaching vehicle was going to be an issue and aborting the lane change.
If there is an adjacent car when it needs to change lanes, it will wait for the lane to clear before turning on the signal.
It is definitely aware of the situation.

It just takes a little time to get use to the vehicle driving.

The other day I was in a neighborhood and had to do a left turn. I dare say that you would have disabled FSD when you saw the situation. Left turn, but there is a landscaping truck parked on the road, ramp of the lawnmower trailer was down, so only 10-15 ft between the ramp and turn. Not the best situation.
And then to add to it, there was a car coming the other direction and therefore no room for the Tesla to go forward.
The car stopped and waited for the oncoming car to pass, then switched to the left lane to pass the parked truck and then once clear, moved back to the right lane.

 

[3sr+buyer]

When following a vehicle, the car can stop in significantly less time that when you are driving the car. Yes, I agree, since you are still in control, it would be nice to be able to extend the distance. But it can start the braking action seconds before some humans would. It's constantly looking at the vehicle.

Given that the driver is supposed to supervise FSDS, then the car needs to drive so that the driver can actually be the safety backup. Following too closely for the driver to safely stop if the vehicle ahead suddenly stops or changes lanes to unmask a stopped vehicle means that the driver cannot supervise the FSDS as intended.

Note that the unmasking scenario is why the minimum following distance needs to be at least the [speed]-to-0 braking distance plus whatever reaction distance a human or level 4-5 automated driver needs.

The car can indeed make lane changes when cars are approaching. And yes, it can cause the approaching vehicle to significantly decrease speed (but then again, they were probably significantly above the speed limit).

Still, that is the kind of lane change behavior that makes other drivers think "what a ****!".

Also, at that time, traffic was enough that I was going significantly slower than the speed limit in the right lane, and the faster vehicle in the next lane was still likely significantly below the speed limit.

 

[zoomer0056]

How long have you been driving with it? i.e. How much trust do you have in it.

It's not about trust. It's about learning, has one learned how to use FSD (supervised), where it's good and where to expect problems.

 

[ewoodrick]

Given that the driver is supposed to supervise FSDS, then the car needs to drive so that the driver can actually be the safety backup. Following too closely for the driver to safely stop if the vehicle ahead suddenly stops or changes lanes to unmask a stopped vehicle means that the driver cannot supervise the FSDS as intended.

Note that the unmasking scenario is why the minimum following distance needs to be at least the [speed]-to-0 braking distance plus whatever reaction distance a human or level 4-5 automated driver needs.


Still, that is the kind of lane change behavior that makes other drivers think "what a ****!".

Also, at that time, traffic was enough that I was going significantly slower than the speed limit in the right lane, and the faster vehicle in the next lane was still likely significantly below the speed limit.

Didn't I say that it would be nice if it had a larger follow distance? All I'm saying is that the car can stop.

And if you are passing at a high rate of speed, you also get called "what a ****"
And when I'm passing at a high rate of speed, I'm always on the lookout for cars that may decide to pull out quickly.
But as I said, the cars tries and does a fairly good job now. This is compared to earlier versions in which the car really didn't consider fast approaching vehicles.

It's still not released, it's still not perfect.