Actually most dealers give you very little for options on trades. In this case, I’m just not seeing why they would. Plus, they are willing to match others offers...so what you are arguing is that they give you more than what they are worth, even though they are worth nothing to Tesla.
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Trading in my M3
- Thread starter thaian207
- Start date
Proflig8tor
Member
@Matt L
Tesla is the largest dealer in used Tesla and based on percent of sales, is in a position to be a market maker. If Tesla evaluates the value of FSD to be zero, then what is it?
Other dealers, with less experience, are very likely to follow Tesla's lead. They will be happy to claim "FSD is worthless, Tesla says so." In a matter of time the software databases that track sales will correlate the result (maybe they already have).
The "car as an app" product is a very new idea in the industry. It sets a very bad precedent if Tesla itself leads the push to say that in car software is worthless.
Would you pay more for FSD? I would. Therefore it has value.
Tesla is the largest dealer in used Tesla and based on percent of sales, is in a position to be a market maker. If Tesla evaluates the value of FSD to be zero, then what is it?
Other dealers, with less experience, are very likely to follow Tesla's lead. They will be happy to claim "FSD is worthless, Tesla says so." In a matter of time the software databases that track sales will correlate the result (maybe they already have).
The "car as an app" product is a very new idea in the industry. It sets a very bad precedent if Tesla itself leads the push to say that in car software is worthless.
Would you pay more for FSD? I would. Therefore it has value.
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lencap
Member
Greetings! Thaian207 I appreciate your desire for more range, but maybe before going to the expense of upgrading you can consider changing your driving pattern.
For example, here's a chart of SR vs LR Range vs Speed.
With and ICE car we don't consider too much that at higher speed our MPG drops since refueling is typically quick and stations are easy to find. With an EV driving strategy is a bit different, at least for me. For example, if I'm taking my M3 LR on a 200 mile day trip in each direction I'll have to recharge at some point since my battery pack limits my range to 325 miles (under ideal conditions). In reality, the range is likely less, which means I may actually prefer to recharge twice for shorter periods.
With the upgrade to 150KWH chargers at many Tesla SuperChargers charging speeds are faster regardless of your battery state of charge. You can even optimize the battery to accept faster charging by conditioning it on the way to the SuperCharger. So, on your trip tap the Icon to find the Supercharger on your route, and navigate to it. That will automatically start the battery preconditioning as you drive. When you get to the charger you'll charge faster, saving time.
As you can see from the above chart slowing down can significantly extend your range. On the SR M3 dropping to 60MPH from from 70MPH gives you about 40 extra miles of range. It may not matter for many of your trips, but if range is an issue you can drive slower and may be able to avoid having to charge en route. In fact, if you look at the chart you'll see that a LR M3 driving at 75MPH has the same projected range as a SR M3 driving at 60MPH! Speed is a killer for EVs.
There are lots of other strategies that may help as well. My point is that driving and EV is different from an ICE, and thinking differently about range and charging times can be useful to optimize your trip. Moreover, as SuperChargers increase in power, and software updates improve efficiency further, the need to longer range may not be as critical.
This chart shows how quickly the M3 (LR) can accept high charge rates:
As you can see when the battery is between 10-45% state of charge the M3 is very efficient at recharging. That could suggest that "topping off" with a high state of charge isn't an optimal strategy. Better to wait until your charge level is in the optimal range above. EG: If you charge at 10%, you can recharge to 45% at the highest speed possible. That may suggest that you consider two shorter stops instead of one longer one to maximize charging efficiency, and doing so quickly.
Again, my point is that EV driving is a "work in progress" with many things to consider. Perhaps it may be useful to hold onto your SR a while longer, play with some of these strategies (and many others available on the forum) and then decide if you really need to upgrade.
One final thought - it's rumored that in 2021 Tesla will have an entirely new battery pack with the potential to last for one million miles. If that's at all true, you may want to wait a while to make the best financial decision you can. I'd personally be a bit upset if I traded in a SR for LR M3 only to find out that if I waited the new battery pack is even more efficient and both charging times and range is improved.
Regardless, you can't really make a bad decision. Just decide what's best for you, and what your driving patterns are now and how they may change in the future.
For example, here's a chart of SR vs LR Range vs Speed.
With and ICE car we don't consider too much that at higher speed our MPG drops since refueling is typically quick and stations are easy to find. With an EV driving strategy is a bit different, at least for me. For example, if I'm taking my M3 LR on a 200 mile day trip in each direction I'll have to recharge at some point since my battery pack limits my range to 325 miles (under ideal conditions). In reality, the range is likely less, which means I may actually prefer to recharge twice for shorter periods.
With the upgrade to 150KWH chargers at many Tesla SuperChargers charging speeds are faster regardless of your battery state of charge. You can even optimize the battery to accept faster charging by conditioning it on the way to the SuperCharger. So, on your trip tap the Icon to find the Supercharger on your route, and navigate to it. That will automatically start the battery preconditioning as you drive. When you get to the charger you'll charge faster, saving time.
As you can see from the above chart slowing down can significantly extend your range. On the SR M3 dropping to 60MPH from from 70MPH gives you about 40 extra miles of range. It may not matter for many of your trips, but if range is an issue you can drive slower and may be able to avoid having to charge en route. In fact, if you look at the chart you'll see that a LR M3 driving at 75MPH has the same projected range as a SR M3 driving at 60MPH! Speed is a killer for EVs.
There are lots of other strategies that may help as well. My point is that driving and EV is different from an ICE, and thinking differently about range and charging times can be useful to optimize your trip. Moreover, as SuperChargers increase in power, and software updates improve efficiency further, the need to longer range may not be as critical.
This chart shows how quickly the M3 (LR) can accept high charge rates:
As you can see when the battery is between 10-45% state of charge the M3 is very efficient at recharging. That could suggest that "topping off" with a high state of charge isn't an optimal strategy. Better to wait until your charge level is in the optimal range above. EG: If you charge at 10%, you can recharge to 45% at the highest speed possible. That may suggest that you consider two shorter stops instead of one longer one to maximize charging efficiency, and doing so quickly.
Again, my point is that EV driving is a "work in progress" with many things to consider. Perhaps it may be useful to hold onto your SR a while longer, play with some of these strategies (and many others available on the forum) and then decide if you really need to upgrade.
One final thought - it's rumored that in 2021 Tesla will have an entirely new battery pack with the potential to last for one million miles. If that's at all true, you may want to wait a while to make the best financial decision you can. I'd personally be a bit upset if I traded in a SR for LR M3 only to find out that if I waited the new battery pack is even more efficient and both charging times and range is improved.
Regardless, you can't really make a bad decision. Just decide what's best for you, and what your driving patterns are now and how they may change in the future.
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Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
May be you could provide a little bit more input regarding your thought of getting a new car,
this could be helpful for other members still undecided between getting a $39k SR+ or a $48k LR?
In particular, can you charge at home or work, or is there any practical charging station close by?
What kind of daily mileage or weekend trip make you consider getting a LR?
Since you live if Florida, you will not really be affected by bad weather and cold temperature affecting your range.
Typically, when charging at 90% and driving up to 10% you would get the following range:
SR = 80% x 240 miles = 192 miles
LR = 80% x 310 miles = 248 miles
So, is a maximum of 56 miles of range really worthwile?
Considering a lost of at least 15% when selling the car (about $5k to $6k) and new sales tax of 6% and registration (about $3k)
and about $9k for the SR to LR upgrade, or a total of ($6k + $3k + $9k) = $18k
So, does a $18k is really cost effective?
Last comment, when the Model Y will start to be available, would you then consider upgrading to it?
Well, in my personal case, I would keep the SR+ for another year, put the $18k not spent into stock options,
and later on get a Model Y, which even might have a new battery pack design and other new improvments.
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Thank you Lencap, this information is very helpful.
We live in Orlando so 240 mi range is more than enough for daily driving. Our problem is that we do take long-distance trips very often. 192 mi, in theory, is great but in real-life situations
192 x .05 (battery degradation) = 182 mi (less than 6 months I'm at 3-4% already)
182 x 15-20% (driving at 70mph) = ~150mi and even less if we factor in AC/Heat and other road conditions.
150mi is usually more than enough between supercharger stations, but the problem we ran into on our last trip was the last Supercharger station was 120mi away from the final destination. We arrived with 120 miles left, we were able to add another 40mi using 110v charger at our cabin. With the vampire drain and some driving in the city, we were down to 115mi range when it was time to leave. We found some public chargers but they were all broken. I didn't want to wait for another 2-3 to get another 12-15mi so we headed back to the supercharger. I was doing 35-45mi/h on a 55/60 limit on a one-lane road the whole way and made it to the Supercharger with 1 mile left. Needless to say, it was an experience I do not want to repeat
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
Whoa! Only 1 mile left! This was kind of scary.I was doing 35-45mi/h on a 55/60 limit on a one-lane road the whole way and made it to the Supercharger with 1 mile left.
Needless to say, it was an experience I do not want to repeat
So comparing the SR and the LR in your situation (see below) you would have had an extra 40 miles or so.
192 x .05 (battery degradation) = 182 mi (less than 6 months I'm at 3-4% already)
182 x 15-20% (driving at 70mph) = ~150mi and even less if we factor in AC/Heat and other road conditions.
248 x .05 (battery degradation) = 235 mi (less than 6 months I'm at 3-4% already)
235 x 15-20% (driving at 70mph) = ~195mi and even less if we factor in AC/Heat and other road conditions.
182 x 15-20% (driving at 70mph) = ~150mi and even less if we factor in AC/Heat and other road conditions.
248 x .05 (battery degradation) = 235 mi (less than 6 months I'm at 3-4% already)
235 x 15-20% (driving at 70mph) = ~195mi and even less if we factor in AC/Heat and other road conditions.
This is certainly an interesting point to consider that if you cannot really fast charge or need to use your car
when arriving at your destination, you will have to drive back and forth on one single charge from the closest Supercharger.
So you cannot really be more than about 75 miles (SR+) or 100 miles (LR) in your case from a Supercharger.
Otherwise the only possibility would be getting (or just renting if very occasional) an Hybrid or Plug-in Hybrid instead.
Or using a trailor providing an extra range.
It might if someone is thinking about going from an SR+ with no AP (they originally didn't have it) to a used LR with EAP/FSD. To add FSD to a car that has no form of autopilot costs $9000 + tax. You should be able to pick up a used LR with EAP or FSD in the mid 40s and sell your SR+ for about $10k less, maybe 11 or 12k less since no AP. In that case you're looking at paying about $12-14k for EAP/FSD, longer range, faster charging rate, much better sound system, premium connectivity and maps, browser, etc. To me that makes more sense than paying around $9600 for FSD; you're getting a lot more for a few extra thousand and it would be a measurably better car, especially if you plan on taking long road trips. Going from an SR+ to a used mid-range would give you many of the LR features and the price difference would be even less, probably very close to what you'd pay to add AP+FSD.
You nailed this topic.Thank you Lencap, this information is very helpful.
We live in Orlando so 240 mi range is more than enough for daily driving. Our problem is that we do take long-distance trips very often. 192 mi, in theory, is great but in real-life situations
192 x .05 (battery degradation) = 182 mi (less than 6 months I'm at 3-4% already)
182 x 15-20% (driving at 70mph) = ~150mi and even less if we factor in AC/Heat and other road conditions.
150mi is usually more than enough between supercharger stations, but the problem we ran into on our last trip was the last Supercharger station was 120mi away from the final destination. We arrived with 120 miles left, we were able to add another 40mi using 110v charger at our cabin. With the vampire drain and some driving in the city, we were down to 115mi range when it was time to leave. We found some public chargers but they were all broken. I didn't want to wait for another 2-3 to get another 12-15mi so we headed back to the supercharger. I was doing 35-45mi/h on a 55/60 limit on a one-lane road the whole way and made it to the Supercharger with 1 mile left. Needless to say, it was an experience I do not want to repeat
View attachment 463045
I have a LR RWD and driving 78mph on the interstate with any headwind and arriving with 10% you are lucky to get 180-200 real range.
SR+ is fine for around town but based on my experience and driving style, it’s not nearly enough for long range trips.
Teedub21
Member
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
This exactly what I was thinking.
Could you look at your breaker panel to check if you have two 120 V phases, and what are the values of the Breakers?
Typically you will have some 15 A for the lights in various rooms, may be a 20 A for a fridge or appliances in the kitchen,
or even more, a 30 A for a range oven or a an electric dryer?
Looking at the Tesla charging table (see below) if you can combine two phases using some extensions cords,
with the assuumption that nothing will be plugged at the same time on a particular breaker, using the approach
of the Dryer Buddy solution, you could have a great improvment in charging range overnight (or 12 Hours), such as:
2 x 120 V and 15 A (12 A nominal) would give 11 miles / hour or 132 miles for 12 hours.
instead of the current situation:
1 x 120 V and 15 A (12 A nominal) would give 3 miles / hour or 36 miles for 12 hours..
Even though, if you could you find some plugs with higher amperage, you could get an improved solution:
2 x 120 V and 20 A (16 A nominal) would give 15 miles / hour or 180 miles for 12 hours.
2 x 120 V and 30 A (24 A nominal) would give 22 miles / houror 264 miles for 12 hours..
2 x 120 V and 30 A (24 A nominal) would give 22 miles / houror 264 miles for 12 hours..
I went form SR+ to P3-. I looked at selling the SR+ but thankfully my wife wanted it.
if you can afford taking a hit I wouldn’t hesitate spending the money. If it would put you in a bind I would wait. The SR is still an amazing car.
if you can afford taking a hit I wouldn’t hesitate spending the money. If it would put you in a bind I would wait. The SR is still an amazing car.
Kiwiadventure
Member
Is this smart telling everyone your friend at Tesla gave you a great deal. You should keep this to yourself and your friend may keep his job.
Schroeder0202
2019 Stealth/White/Black/20 inch Tsportline
The advisors don't set trade in values. Tesla has an appraisal team. I don't believe they can influence trade value at all. Must have just got lucky or had a desirable car.
Or spend several nights. In any case, your use pattern really does cry out for more range or better charging. It definitely sounds like you did nearly everything possible just to arrive back at the SC with a mile to spare. Definitely not fun. You can wear that range anxiety badge anywhere you want.
Fernand
Active Member
For most people I wouldn't underestimate the value of a couple of 50 ft extension cables, a good 120 volt one and a 14-50 one, plus a couple of other "standards" adapters, for a total under $250. Cheaper than getting another car. 30 Amp rated cables/adapters are much cheaper than higher ratings, and I'm pretty sure that at 240v you don't need more than 30 amps. And there's plenty of margin if you shop smart on the cables.
The point being that you can sometimes hook up to a dryer plug where you stop. Or, if it's yours, wire up some Romex and a 14-50 receptacle to the two sides of the 120 volt circuit. Or worst case, run the 120 volt cable out the window of a motel room, about 10 hours for meals, beautification and sleep, I get about 50 miles added by the time I leave. These are not "weird" measures, if you are in an EV, you learn some EV methods. It takes just a few minutes to plug in for the night so you don't have to be playing the definitely not fun "1 mile left" roulette.
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The point being that you can sometimes hook up to a dryer plug where you stop. Or, if it's yours, wire up some Romex and a 14-50 receptacle to the two sides of the 120 volt circuit. Or worst case, run the 120 volt cable out the window of a motel room, about 10 hours for meals, beautification and sleep, I get about 50 miles added by the time I leave. These are not "weird" measures, if you are in an EV, you learn some EV methods. It takes just a few minutes to plug in for the night so you don't have to be playing the definitely not fun "1 mile left" roulette.
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I'm still waiting for some more trade-in values but so far the offers are between 30-33k to trade in my SR+. When factoring everything else in, it's an 8-12k hit plus another 10-15k for the LR. A Tesla rep advised me to sell the car privately or find someone to take over my loan. At this point, I'm leaning toward getting a Quick 220 or dryer buddy and put down a deposit for a Model Y LR. Another person suggested waiting for the end of quarter sale in a few months to make the transition more reasonable.
Bought new Black/Black SR+ with Aeros + AP in May at list price of $39.5k. In late August, got these offers with 5k miles:
Tesla: $28k
Carvana: $32k
Vroom: $32k
Carmax: $36
Sold to Carmax and got a used 2017 LR RWD with 4k miles straight from Tesla. I used ev-cpo to find the LR.
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