Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

UK FSD Discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
The UK government Self Driving Bill passed through House of Lords recently with a course in House of Commons next. The earliest the UK transport minister slated that as resulting in an autonomous vehicle on UK roads was by 2026 (presumably 31st Dec of), once approved by Department for Transport - or another appointed authority (as the Lords decided to change that requirement to).

With regard UNECE auto-regs:
While DCAS has been brought forward to March agenda, that may be opportunity to change it from feedback then formally confirm later in June as usual.

I feel pessimistic that Tesla will allocate time and resources to conforming to UNECE regulation, like they didn't bother doing with autonomous lane changes at highway speed that became lawful from 1st Jan 2023. Simple tweak of ECMode that didn't happen while they prioritised US rollout.
 
I feel pessimistic that Tesla will allocate time and resources to conforming to UNECE regulation, like they didn't bother doing with autonomous lane changes at highway speed that became lawful from 1st Jan 2023. Simple tweak of ECMode that didn't happen while they prioritised US rollout.

I understand your pessimism, but here's my optimists take....!

There has already been evidence that FSD is already being tested internally by Tesla internationally, and Elon has also mentioned last year that they were working on International HW3 FSD V12 ahead of USA HW4 FSD V12.


Now, we know not everything Elon says is timely, but it does suggest that work on an international version may already be in progress, who knows, perhaps nearly complete as HW4 FSD V12 USA is already in public release.

Whether this will mean a V12 release hobbled to current UNECE rules initially or not, or whether we have to wait for the new Level 2 UNECE regs for any improvements we'll see.

But I suspect we'll see something sooner rather than later.
 
I understand your pessimism, but here's my optimists take....!

There has already been evidence that FSD is already being tested internally by Tesla internationally, and Elon has also mentioned last year that they were working on International HW3 FSD V12 ahead of USA HW4 FSD V12.


Now, we know not everything Elon says is timely, but it does suggest that work on an international version may already be in progress, who knows, perhaps nearly complete as HW4 FSD V12 USA is already in public release.
Getting FSD approved in China, which is Elon's priority at the moment, will mean it'll be available in US/Canada/China = International enough in Elon's eyes.
We know they don't care much about Europe, even less UK with those odd RHD rules...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pink Duck
Getting FSD approved in China, which is Elon's priority at the moment, will mean it'll be available in US/Canada/China = International enough in Elon's eyes.
We know they don't care much about Europe, even less UK with those odd RHD rules...

Tesla would likely be legally on the hook if it did not deliver FSD in Europe when legislation eventually allows it here.

they may prioritise China over Europe, we'll see, but I'm confident it will appear over here.

As for driving on the left hand side of the road, its not just us, but 30% of countries and 35% of the population drive on the left. And as started previously it is apparently already being tested in UK internally.
 
That is not what the proposed UNECE DCAS regulations stipulate.

In general, this is how the system should perform actions (that are not just lane keeping):

A manoeuvre shall only be initiated if the driver is not detected to be disengaged, and
(a) has commanded the system to perform the manoeuvre for a driverinitiated manoeuvre; or
(b) has acknowledged the system’s intention as needed for a driverconfirmed manoeuvre; or

(c) is given sufficient notice to react for a system-initiated manoeuvre.

See article 5.3.7.2.1.1. of the proposed regulations (interesting read!).

Given that the article states "or", either one of the options a, b or c is fine. FSDbeta v12 is in compliance I believe, as long as it (1) does not detect a disengaged driver and (2) gives sufficient notice to the driver to react before performing a system-initiated manoeuvre.

Notice the term "sufficient" notice, not measured in an absolute value. This gives some leeway to the manufacturers to defend their systems.

The notice FSD v12 provides is in the visualization.


The type of language used applies to most aspects of autonomous driving. The regulations often state that the autonomous system should be "designed to" or "aim to" do this or that (eg. smooth turns in one continuous motion), but rarely are there hard cut-offs.

They explain this in the introduction (page 3-4 of the linked document):

7. This impact of system boundaries on the system’s ability to fulfil certain requirements,and the nature of how requirements can be assessed, is reflected by the language used in thisUN Regulation.
(a) Some requirements are expected to be always met, including in all relevant tests. Theseprovisions are phrased as “the system shall…”;
(b) Some requirements are such that whilst the system is generally expected to fulfil them,this might not always be appropriate or achievable under the specific circumstances, or external disturbances may still lead to a varying output. These provisions are phrasedas “the system shall be aim to…”; and

(c) Some requirements are difficult to verify by assessing system performance directly andare more readily verified by assessing the design of the system, for example byanalysing its control strategies. These provisions are phrased as “the system shall bedesigned to…”.


Most of the regulations seem achievable with v12.

Some I cannot assess not being an engineer, such as a maximum allowed lateral acceleration when turning/following a lane (so in all conditions)
which shall not exceed3 m/s² for M1 and N1 category vehicles and 2.5 m/s² for M2, M3, N2 and N3category vehicles. (article 5.3.7.1.2.)

When this is exceeded, the system has to nag the driver or hand control to him, but it has to keep assisting in steering:

5.3.7.1.4. When the system reaches its boundary conditions set out in paragraph 9.1.3.,and both in the absence of any driver input to the steering control and whenany the front tyre of the vehicle starts to unintentionally cross a lane marking,the system shall avoid sudden loss of steering support by providing continuedassistance to the extent possible as outlined in the safety concept of the vehiclemanufacturer. The system shall clearly inform the driver about this systemstatus by means of an optical warning signal and additionally by an acoustic orhaptic warning signal.

For vehicles of categories M2 M3 N2 and N3, the warning requirement aboveis deemed to be fulfilled if the vehicle is equipped with a Lane DepartureWarning System (LDWS) fulfilling the technical requirements of UNRegulation No. 130.



I imagine the lateral acceleration limits in the above articles provides some margin and Tesla FSD v12 falls within these boundaries.

If not, it'll be hard to rewrite the software to take into account these new constraints.

That is my main concern with these regulations. But again, I imagine these restraints provide leeway.

Even most articles that state the system SHALL do so and so, provide an exemption in certain situations, for example when safety requires it (for example stopping abruptly for a spotted pedestrian). I guess Tesla will have to cooperate with the local governments to show their software is in line with the regulations.

(UNECE regulations are adopted at a European level and the European member states then have to convert this into national laws, if I understand correctly. This will add to the timeline. So if in March the current regulations are accepted and they are valid starting September 1st 2024, the national laws still have to implement these regulations).

If we see FSD in Europe in 2025 I'll be happy. Before that I'm not expecting it. 2026 or later is very possible if Tesla cannot prove to regulators its software ticks all the UNECE DCAS boxes.

Hmmm interesting. The youtube video going over this document, that seemed detailed and well studied, clearly states all system-initiated manoeuvres will have to be driver-confirmed. But I've looked in the document and can't see this anywhere - I think he's mistaken.

I do note that specific requirements for system-initiated manoeuvres are 'reserved', i.e. not written yet, so plenty of opportunity remaining to gimp that, but doesn't seem as bad as that video made out currently.
 
The write-up of yesterday’s House of Commons 2nd Reading (really, the first proper one) is now available.

It read so well until Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP). MP for MK got a good early say on wishing to trial it there. Even reference to Post Office Horizon scandal system. Interesting that they are happy to accept autonomous equivalent to human, as well as better. Plus "But as we see with smart motorways, if the public are not convinced about the safety of new technology, they will not accept it." SNP made an interesting point about still being able to manually drive autonomous vehicles and not be forced into having compulsory automation. Not one mention of Tesla or FSD. Few members attended the debate.

Committee stage due to complete by Thursday 18th April 2024.
 
Last edited:
I thought AIDrivr's most recent video was interesting in that it clearly showed tight, winding, challenging roads more akin to the ones we get in this country. Although clearly some work still to do I think technically it is making me feel slightly more confident they might actually get there.

 
  • Like
Reactions: KennethS
I was wondering how FSD will cope with French roundabouts....they seem to be designed so that you can’t see over the top of them (using hills, shrubbery and landscaping) and therefore not seeing traffic enter them from the opposite side. Leaving you to react only to traffic already coming around the roundabout....I was worried if Tesla hesitancy would mean it never enters a busy roundabout ?
 
It’s been said before, European legislation and whether Tesla’s FSD complies with it are two different questions. Summon is legal in Europe now, but in the detail there’s stuff that Tesla struggles with. Same with lane change. So while it’s great news if it happens, I’m not holding my breath as to whether Tesla can comply with the small print in the regs.
 
It’s been said before, European legislation and whether Tesla’s FSD complies with it are two different questions. Summon is legal in Europe now, but in the detail there’s stuff that Tesla struggles with. Same with lane change. So while it’s great news if it happens, I’m not holding my breath as to whether Tesla can comply with the small print in the regs.
Do you mean without the 6m range limitation? If so since when? Do you have more reports of why Tesla isn’t managing to release it the same way as in the US?
 
Do you mean without the 6m range limitation? If so since when? Do you have more reports of why Tesla isn’t managing to release it the same way as in the US?
No, I mean Tesla adopted bluetooth comms from the phone for summon where the regs require a dead mans handle approach where any momentary failing in the comms results in it aborting, something that seems to happen often, you can't cache the instruction like you can with say audio. When they used AP1, it used the keyfob, no idea what comms it used but it wasn't bluetooth, and that seemed to work more reliably, although still not great. The point being that the regs can dictate certain aspects and Tesla have gone down a route where their technology choice may not support it. (And I know the new bluetooth they're rolling out may address the issue but it's taken a long time to get there, and its just a historic example)

I'm intending to put some time aside to have a read, but I can see the regs having something as simple as independant testing to validate the code before released, something Tesla don't currently do, I can see something along the lines of some element having a degree of redundency which Tesla don't have, I think there's like to be a large element on the car <-> driver interaction and the car gracefully handing back control and being self awareness ahead of aborting which again Tesla don't seem to be implementing (they've talked about L3 having a 7 second period where the car MUST remain in control after signalling to the driver they need to take back control to give them time to prepare). I'm speculating of course, it might be fine, I'm just highlighting the regulations are likely to have a miriad of conditions that need to be met, ones we might never guess, and if Tesla can't meet any of them, then they can;t implement. I think Tesla also pulled out of the group setting the standards (I could be wrong, they pulled out of a few grouips, it might just have been the charging standards) but if so they've had no influence, and would we be surprised if rivals who participated influenced it in a way that was not good for Tesla?
 
A good thing UK Government is getting on with Automated Driving Bill debates so that all UNECE can be put aside and instead an internal regulator test and authorise use in this particular country. I have a feeling that will arrive sooner than Tesla conforming to this European DCAS stringency.
 
It’s purely about Secretary of State providing an evidential statement of how self-drive systems were determined to meet minimum safety guidelines of being at least a competent driver and a boost to UK road safety and then authorising self-driving vehicles on that basis. House of Lords revised to make it possible for this to be a separate UK authorising body. UK gov has regulatory autonomy from EU, with [World Forum member] UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement obliging UK to follow UNECE Auto Regulation until such a time that one of those parties decides to renegotiate.

As usual no joy for the legacy S/X owners, who’ll need an in-cabin camera to be eligible. Up to Tesla to offer that as a retrofit, but suspect they won't.
 
Last edited: