[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[BriansTesla]

I put the thing about hitting a tree to be funny. A couple of you guys took it seriously. I'm actually scared of rapid deceleration.

But I am really concerned that the battery should not explode/burn. If a passenger can survive the crash and try to get out... the battery should survive too without catching fire.

Teslas are already in the area of 10 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE car. How much safer do they need to be? 20 times safer...50....1000? At some point it's just better to stay at home.
But stay out of the shower!

 

[Big Earl]

RE: Consumer Reports test of the Model Y

The car drove up and down their test track with no one in the driver's seat ... and didn't go careening off the road into a tree. Imagine that. They go on and on and on about how dangerous it is that this is possible, but completely neglect to mention how the car actually performed.

 

[TomT]

Consumer Reports shows Tesla Autopilot works with no one in the driver’s seat

Consumer Reports argues Tesla needs a better driver-monitoring system.

arstechnica.com

 

[Needsdecaf]

There is no ending to people's hacking capabilities. Tesla should only take do things that help people who are *not* trying to hack. Dozing off inadvertently or getting distracted by kids.

There will always be a way to hack - whatever you do.

Steering wheel force is a lame way to monitor driver attentiveness. Capacitive wheel sensors or IR cameras are way more effective and less noticeable. I for one hate the stupid torque monitoring. I swear 3/4 of the time it yells at me BOTH hands are actually on the wheel.

 

[EVNow]

Steering wheel force is a lame way to monitor driver attentiveness. Capacitive wheel sensors or IR cameras are way more effective and less noticeable. I for one hate the stupid torque monitoring. I swear 3/4 of the time it yells at me BOTH hands are actually on the wheel.

It yells at me 100% of the time - and my hands are always on the wheel.

Yes - thats the reason to make it better.

Not because of stupid CR articles.

ps : The market is already over with this story. Yesterday SP came back to the level it was before the story came out on Sunday (~740).

 

[Needsdecaf]

It yells at me 100% of the time - and my hands are always on the wheel.

Yes - thats the reason to make it better.

Not because of stupid CR articles.

I agree, on both counts. I've been complaining about this for years.

But I hope this article accomplishes that. Stupid and all. Sometimes good outcomes come from stupid gestations.

 

[EVNow]

I agree, on both counts. I've been complaining about this for years.

But I hope this article accomplishes that. Stupid and all. Sometimes good outcomes come from stupid gestations.

I believe Tesla is in a somewhat difficult position here because of the existing stock of cars. There have been reports of trying to use the camera to monitor drivers - but that will still leave out older S&X (assuming the refreshed S&X will have the cameras).

 

[T3SLAROD]

Personal responsibility has left our society. CR is for FOS.

I'm waiting on their article on how Dodge should cap all HellCats at 90 mph because they keep out running police.

 

[Tam]

I believe Tesla is in a somewhat difficult position here because of the existing stock of cars. There have been reports of trying to use the camera to monitor drivers - but that will still leave out older S&X (assuming the refreshed S&X will have the cameras).

At least apply driver camera monitoring capability for new cars with interior cameras.

For cars that don't, at least the weight sensor should be utilized to shut down the Autopilot once there's a drastic change for the driver's seat since the days of 2014 AP1.

 

[MikeyC]

Teslas are already in the area of 10 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE car. How much safer do they need to be? 20 times safer...50....1000? At some point it's just better to stay at home.
But stay out of the shower!

Many people don't look at the big picture. A car has to be capable of driving long distances so they all need a large energy store in order to do that. Whether it is gasoline, diesel, propane, batteries, or some other form, they all contain energy stores that when ignited, can release some/all of their energy. Gas cars have accidents and an electrical spark or other form of heat ignites it and they burn rapidly. There are pros and cons to controlling both battery and gasoline fires. Batteries can self-reignite. Gasoline can spill out of the tank which requires a chemical cleanup afterward and gasoline can leach into the ground, nearby lake, ground (drinking) water, and so on. One is not necessarily worse than the other but I can see how first responders may have more experience with a liquid fuel fire, so "fire" and "different" gets media attention.

Mike

 

[Needsdecaf]

Well now. This would be interesting if all of these facts are true.

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[stopcrazypp]

FSD adds a *LOT* of features now. Old EAP used to have most of what FSD provided, but the new basic AP has very little.

FSD adds
- lane changing
- NoA, on/off ramps
- self parking!
- summon
- traffic as you said
- city autosteer in the future

Yes, I know that, but I'm grouping EAP with AP in this case.

I haven't seen evidence AP has different activation requirements than EAP.

 

[MikeyC]

This brings up something I had been wondering: will the driver's airbag go off if no one is in the seat? I'm wondering because, why would you spend resources to determine whether or not anyone is in the driver's seat to deploy an airbag... when that's the one seat in the car that should always be occupied. Shouldn't that one go off regardless?

Mike

 

[MP3Mike]

This brings up something I had been wondering: will the driver's airbag go off if no one is in the seat? I'm wondering because, why would you spend resources to determine whether or not anyone is in the driver's seat to deploy an airbag... when that's the one seat in the car that should always be occupied. Shouldn't that one go off regardless?

Elon has mentioned that the airbag module is constantly recalculating the optimum airbag deployment strategy based on the weight, and position of that weight, in the seat. So it would make sense that no weight would cause it to not deploy. 1) Why waste the airbag if it isn't needed, 2) if it is low weight it could be a child the airbag could kill.

From: Elon Musk Talks Auto Safety and Regulation of Artificial Intelligence with Joe Rogan - Corporate Crime Reporter

“For decades,” Musk said. “The data was absolutely clear that you needed seat belts. The difference in fatalities with seat belts versus not seat belts is gigantic and obvious. It’s not subtle. But still, the car companies fought seat belts for ten to twenty years. A lot of people died.”

“Now, these days with advanced airbags, I think we might have come full circle and no longer need seat belts if you have advanced airbags.”

“What if the car flips?” Rogan asked.

“You are just covered — it’s airbags everywhere,” Musk said. “Modern airbags are so good it will blow your mind how good they are. At Tesla, we even update the software to improve how the airbags deploy. We will calculate — are you an adult, how much do you weigh, are you sitting in this part of the seat or that part of the seat? You may be a baby. Are you a toddler?”

“Based on the weight?” Rogan asked.

“Not just the weight, but the pressure distribution on the seat. Are you sitting on the edge of your seat? Are you a fifth percent female or 95 percent male? The airbag firing will be different depending on where you are sitting on the seat, what size you are, and what your orientation is. And we’ll update it over the years. It gets better over time.”

“A child could be sitting in the front seat?” Rogan asked.

“Unbelted child sitting in a bad position – probably still fine,” Musk said. “The seat belt is like — if you wear the seat belt — that’s nice. The airbag is doing the work. Airbag technology is crazy good. You want the airbag to inflate and then deflate, otherwise you are going to be asphyxiated.”

“We go way beyond the regulatory requirements. We got the lowest probability of injury of any cars they ever tested.”

 

[Needsdecaf]

Elon has mentioned that the airbag module is constantly recalculating the optimum airbag deployment strategy based on the weight, and position of that weight, in the seat. So it would make sense that no weight would cause it to not deploy. 1) Why waste the airbag if it isn't needed, 2) if it is low weight it could be a child the airbag could kill.

From: Elon Musk Talks Auto Safety and Regulation of Artificial Intelligence with Joe Rogan - Corporate Crime Reporter

Yes, but we're talking about the driver's seat. I don't think the people who program airbag modules are considering a scenario where there is no one in the driver's seat at the time of the crash. Or that it's being driven by a child.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes, but we're talking about the driver's seat. I don't think the people who program airbag modules are considering a scenario where there is no one in the driver's seat at the time of the crash. Or that it's being driven by a child.

It still has to to take weight/position/distribution into account. Why would they use any different code for the driver's seat than the passenger's seat? That would just be duplicative code to maintain.

And children drive, and crash, vehicles all the time. So it would be good for them to take that into account.

 

[FordMME]

I considered the seatbelt thing but figured if the owner was really stupid enough to pull this stunt, what are the chances he put his seatbelt on in the back seat? Well, if his body was found belted in, that puts an end to the speculation.

I also considered the air bag issue from a different angle. I just assumed the driver airbag would deploy regardless, but that the coroner might be able to look for signs of airbag-induced trauma depending upon how badly the fire damaged the body. But if the airbag didn’t even go off, that again pretty much ends the speculation about whether anyone was in the driver seat.

It looks to me like this guy figured out he was capable of engaging AP on his street, lines or not, because he lived there and had tried it before. It’s still strange that he was able to accelerate the car in AP to such a rate of speed over such a short distance. Which leads me to wonder whether the passenger manually reached over with his leg to press the accelerator, pressed it way too hard, and boom.

 

[SMAlset]

Regarding @Needsdecaf’s posted tweet link in #769 above.

I posted a while back in this thread something from Montgomery Sherrif’s police log or something like that. I remember thinking that the Constable was from Harris County (neighboring county to the south of Montgomery) and it seemed that the responders were from Montgomery. I know sometimes there can be cross help so kind of noted it and let it pass. If Harris County got involved because the passenger was a businessman/resident from that county I can see that I guess. Also If the Constable didn’t get called to the scene until later that night might explain the 2+ hour time difference in the media and statements and lack of clarity on how the fires efforts were handled, not his department so to speak.

The last section of that tweet has me thinking they might be looking at a possible driver who left the vehicle, something we early on considered here. Guess investigative time will hopefully resolve all the questions. Will be very interested to see if Tesla logs show a driver in that seat. If we hear of an arrest in the meantime, guess we might know the answer to that before the agency preliminary and final reports come out. A driver in the car who left the crash would be the simplest answer to all our questions.

 

[lascavarian]

At least apply driver camera monitoring capability for new cars with interior cameras.

For cars that don't, at least the weight sensor should be utilized to shut down the Autopilot once there's a drastic change for the driver's seat since the days of 2014 AP1.

Cabin camera monitoring is opt-in in some jurisdictions I believe. This could probably be worked out however.

To me, there is the seat belt, door sensor and the seat occupied sensor. An OTA update could tweek these universal sensors a add an alarm. Just thinking off top of head. Seat belt must be closed, doors closed and weight sensor sensing at 5 mph each time the vehicle exceeds 5 mph (whatever) or alarm. Probably lots of much better solutions. Pretty sure clever people are looking at a simple solution.

It is also possible to do nothing and say the vehicle was operating as designed and the actions of the driver directly resulted in the accident.

The original brake testing revealed a problem outside the performance designs and EM reacted very quickly but in this case the vehicle was in specification it seems. CR just feels the design is too easy to defeat.

There is also the possibility of other strange turns in this case. Autopsy should be out soon.

 

[Gadget-X]

I am totally discussed with the news media. Seems none of the media publishes facts on ANY story anymore, just garage that make false headline stories...

Mirror

Sun

9News

CNN

ETC...........................

As I see some of the bad headlines for Tesla on this accident are now being pulled.

RIP to the 2 who lost their lives, how & why we may never know.

M