Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software

[nativewolf]

I went back and the low end was indeed .7g/mi. The HIGH end of real world testing yielded 1.5g/mi of NOx emission which would yield an average of 1.1g/mi.

I STILL reject the idea of comparing real world values with the EPA test cycle. But if you want to compromise, then Ill give you 1 TDI = 5 NEW ford 150's

Heck if the objective is to move people then yes. If it is too serve as a work truck...5 tdi still wouldn't equal 1 new 150. Can't tow a skid steer with a tdi, can't put 20 bags of mortar in the back either. The question is does 1 TDI = 1 honda civic. The answer is a resounding no. Why bother with diesel in little cars?

In a big truck diesel makes more sense. My old Hino medium duty is a diesel and I love it , bought it because it was a diesel and I am sure it will outlive me if I change the fluids. In the meantime it can haul 32k lbs of hay or whatever.

 

[mspohr]

It appears that regulators are now starting to pay attention.
This article reports on a study where VW seems to report only about 10% of claims for injuries in their cars.

Questions Raised on VWs Reporting of U.S. Deaths, Injuries - NBC News

Even as Volkswagen struggles to deal with its diesel emissions scandal, new data raise questions about whether the automaker has properly reported death and injury claims to U.S. regulators over the past decade.

 

[gene]

It appears that regulators are now starting to pay attention.
This article reports on a study where VW seems to report only about 10% of claims for injuries in their cars.

Questions Raised on VWs Reporting of U.S. Deaths, Injuries - NBC News

Even as Volkswagen struggles to deal with its diesel emissions scandal, new data raise questions about whether the automaker has properly reported death and injury claims to U.S. regulators over the past decade.

I can't wait to see what the guys on TDI Forum have to say!

"If a manufacturer is going to cheat in one area they're going to cheat in another," he said, referring to the VW diesel emissions scandal.

 

[thegruf]

In the UK, this from the BBC:

About 400,000 Volkswagen cars in the UK will need fuel injectors altered as well as a software fix, its UK boss said.
Paul Willis, UK managing director, said that cars fitted with the 1.6L diesel engine would need the physical remedy.
Those with the larger 2L engine would only need a software fix, he told the Commons Transport select committee.
Mr Willis apologised "sincerely and unreservedly" for letting down customers.
"Volkswagen has significantly let down its customers and the wider public... we recognise we've fallen short of the standards expected and we will take all the necessary steps to regain trust."
He told the MPs it was in 2008 that VW first sold cars in the UK with engines that could cheat emissions testing.
A total of 1.2 million UK vehicles had been affected, but the remaining two thirds would only need software altered, Mr Willis explained.

This kicked off in 2008, ie 7 years ago, that's a long time for the regulators to have to wool pulled over their eyes.
Doesn't say much for competence of the regulators imo.

Somebody needs to calculate how much exess NOx has been emitted in total ... in Tonnes

Looks like the 1.6 needs injectors + software; the 2.0 just needs software... and that's to pass the hopeless EU regs, the US regs are far stricter for NOx...

also no mention of the effect on performance

 

[adiggs]

...

This kicked off in 2008, ie 7 years ago, that's a long time for the regulators to have to wool pulled over their eyes.
Doesn't say much for competence of the regulators imo.

...

This is an angle that I expect will take months or quarters to develop, but I'm very interested in seeing how it plays out. Yeah - VW comes out of this looking (because they've been behaving) badly. But I haven't yet seen a regulatory body that comes out of this looking all that good either. The regulators look like idiots - not because there has been a year and some from between the first reports and investigation, that finally led to EPA denying the 2016 certificate. The regulators are looking like idiots because they've been being lied to and haven't noticed it for 7+ years. If the regulators are apparently that easy to lie to, what else has the car industry been getting away with?


I'm EXPECTING (hoping) to see some serious augmentation of worldwide auto emissions testing. Both ad hoc "real world" testing, as well as upgraded laboratory testing designed to better mimic real world driving conditions. I'm ok with the idea that there will be a reasonably controlled set of testing conditions that can be optimized for - so that we can get numbers that compare between years, makes, models, etc.. But those tests need to not obviously depart from reality so badly (stripping cars empty, remove mirrors, tape seams - really?).

I'm kind of hoping that that this gets politicized - that politicians realize there are serious points to be scored with the electorate to go crusading on this topic, and the car industry finds itself facing a wall of unfriendly politicians and regulators. To the degree this happens, this will affect all car makers. Even the ones that are gaming the highly gameable testing methods without actively employing defeat devices.


Ultimately, I expect a whole bunch of flash and light, but not the kind of substantive change that will drive serious R&D and manufacturing investment to shift away from liquids burning engines.

 

[nativewolf]

This is an angle that I expect will take months or quarters to develop, but I'm very interested in seeing how it plays out. Yeah - VW comes out of this looking (because they've been behaving) badly. But I haven't yet seen a regulatory body that comes out of this looking all that good either. The regulators look like idiots - not because there has been a year and some from between the first reports and investigation, that finally led to EPA denying the 2016 certificate. The regulators are looking like idiots because they've been being lied to and haven't noticed it for 7+ years. If the regulators are apparently that easy to lie to, what else has the car industry been getting away with?


I'm EXPECTING (hoping) to see some serious augmentation of worldwide auto emissions testing. Both ad hoc "real world" testing, as well as upgraded laboratory testing designed to better mimic real world driving conditions. I'm ok with the idea that there will be a reasonably controlled set of testing conditions that can be optimized for - so that we can get numbers that compare between years, makes, models, etc.. But those tests need to not obviously depart from reality so badly (stripping cars empty, remove mirrors, tape seams - really?).

I'm kind of hoping that that this gets politicized - that politicians realize there are serious points to be scored with the electorate to go crusading on this topic, and the car industry finds itself facing a wall of unfriendly politicians and regulators. To the degree this happens, this will affect all car makers. Even the ones that are gaming the highly gameable testing methods without actively employing defeat devices.


Ultimately, I expect a whole bunch of flash and light, but not the kind of substantive change that will drive serious R&D and manufacturing investment to shift away from liquids burning engines.

In Europe the regulators have been completely captured by the industry. In the US only partly less so. The key issue of weakness, testing in labs instead of highways, was well known. End that and you'd stop most of the gaming. Also, there should be sample periodic testing to verify multi-year compliance on emissions and milage.

 

[stopcrazypp]

In Europe the regulators have been completely captured by the industry. In the US only partly less so. The key issue of weakness, testing in labs instead of highways, was well known. End that and you'd stop most of the gaming. Also, there should be sample periodic testing to verify multi-year compliance on emissions and milage.

I don't think dyno testing is necessarily the main cause. It's that the European standard itself is so far removed from real world driving and way too lax.
Here's some of the examples of the "legal cheating" the European standard allows (including taping seams and overinflating the tires on the road portion of the test used to determine coefficients):
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/14/carmakers-taking-advantage-of-eu-fuel-economy-test-by-taping-up/

The US test is a lot closer to real world driving and is far more restrictive. The preference for dynos is repeat-ability, they just didn't think an automaker would make a cheat device to detect it.

 

[omarsultan]

I'm kind of hoping that that this gets politicized - that politicians realize there are serious points to be scored with the electorate to go crusading on this topic, and the car industry finds itself facing a wall of unfriendly politicians and regulators. To the degree this happens, this will affect all car makers. Even the ones that are gaming the highly gameable testing methods without actively employing defeat devices.

Its already politicized, but probably not in the way you want. The House of Representatives just voted cut the EPA's budget by 9%. This is beyond the cumulative 20% in reductions since the GOP took control of the house in 2011.

The kicker is going to be when some House committee marches McCarthy up to the Hill to yell at her about enforcement.

 

[beeeerock]

It appears that regulators are now starting to pay attention.
This article reports on a study where VW seems to report only about 10% of claims for injuries in their cars.

Questions Raised on VWs Reporting of U.S. Deaths, Injuries - NBC News

Even as Volkswagen struggles to deal with its diesel emissions scandal, new data raise questions about whether the automaker has properly reported death and injury claims to U.S. regulators over the past decade.

Wow. GM reported 524 deaths per million cars and VW reported 34. And the staff wherever those numbers were sent just put them in a file folder and closed the file cabinet. *Nobody* receiving the numbers thought they looked... well... just a touch out of line???!! That you were 15 times more likely to die in a GM than a VW? One has to wonder if it's deeper than just VW's reporting. What good is the process if nobody looks at the results?

 

[Johan]

Volkswagen is pegging its fate to a major bet on electric cars - Quartz

Here we go...

VW said today (Oct. 13) that it will create a standardized electric architecture that can be used in all VW Group vehicles, and is meant to allow travel of 250 to 500 kilometers (156 to 312 miles) on a single charge. The flagship will be a retooled luxury Phaeton, an $80,000 sedan for which VW had planned only diesel and plug-in hybrid versions for the 2018 or 2019 model years. Now, the Phaeton will be all-electric, the company said, an apparent challenger to the popular Tesla S.

Volkswagen Group Volkswagen Brand Board of Management takes strategic decisions

Zis is groß... As they say

 

[mspohr]

Volkswagen is pegging its fate to a major bet on electric cars - Quartz

Here we go...

VW said today (Oct. 13) that it will create a standardized electric architecture that can be used in all VW Group vehicles, and is meant to allow travel of 250 to 500 kilometers (156 to 312 miles) on a single charge. The flagship will be a retooled luxury Phaeton, an $80,000 sedan for which VW had planned only diesel and plug-in hybrid versions for the 2018 or 2019 model years. Now, the Phaeton will be all-electric, the company said, an apparent challenger to the popular Tesla S.

Volkswagen Group Volkswagen Brand Board of Management takes strategic decisions

Zis is groß... As they say

More on this from The Guardian:
Volkswagen announces £750m spending cuts to fund product revamp | Business | The Guardian

Looks like they are going to spend more on EV development... very encouraging.

 

[adiggs]

Reading the VW press release was, at least for me, particularly enlightening. It's not what somebody else is saying - it's what VW is saying. Their flagship car (I'm mentally likening it to the Mercedes S Class) will be all electric, instead of diesel or hybrid, in 18/19.

This is indeed good. Now I hope they survive the transition.

 

[Johan]

I hope we get some indication or details sooner rather than later on who their battery partner will be. In house production of batteries would be an aggressive and ballsy move, but the odds for that are high.

 

[omarsultan]

In the near term, looks like they are simply going to start using AdBlue and SCR to get back into the diesel market. The comments about a new EV platform are encouraging, but its also hard to reconcile that against the €1bn/yr cuts in R&D they are talking about (a little under 10%). The cynic in me says this talk about an EV platform is simply them trying to get out of the doghouse with the green buyers who thought they were buying a "clean diesel".

 

[beeeerock]

I hope we get some indication or details sooner rather than later on who their battery partner will be. In house production of batteries would be an aggressive and ballsy move, but the odds for that are high.

I would say it would be biting off more than they can chew... for the moment. Other than paying strict attention to the quality control of the batteries, I think they need to focus their attention (and likely, limited cash, as settlement costs grow) on doing the car design RIGHT. Simply dropping in a box of batteries where the gas tank was isn't going to cut it IMHO. They need to start at the ground and work up, like Tesla did, if they want to see success. Do it right, do it once...

 

[jgs]

Here we go...

...

Zis is groß... As they say

Given VW/Audi's decade of experience in shipping EV press releases instead of shipping EVs, I'm not disposed to get excited about one more press release. Doubly so given their urgent need to do something, anything, to change the headlines.

But if it should turn out to be true, great!

 

[FlatSix911]

More on this from The Guardian:
Volkswagen announces £750m spending cuts to fund product revamp | Business | The Guardian

Looks like they are going to spend more on EV development... very encouraging.

Reading the VW press release was, at least for me, particularly enlightening. It's not what somebody else is saying - it's what VW is saying. Their flagship car (I'm mentally likening it to the Mercedes S Class) will be all electric, instead of diesel or hybrid, in 18/19.

This is indeed good. Now I hope they survive the transition.

Given VW/Audi's decade of experience in shipping EV press releases instead of shipping EVs, I'm not disposed to get excited about one more press release. Doubly so given their urgent need to do something, anything, to change the headlines.

But if it should turn out to be true, great!

This is very positive news regarding the future widespread use of EV's ... Elon would be proud!

Wolfsburg, 2015-10-13
Volkswagen Brand Board of Management takes strategic decisions
• Accelerated implementation of the efficiency program creates room for reorientation
• Streamlined processes leverage further cost-saving potential, including cuts in fixed costs
• Investments to be reduced by 1 billion euros per year compared with planning – combined with prioritization of projects for the future
• Product decisions formulated
• New Phaeton will be electric
• New Modular Electric Toolkit planned


The newly-formed Volkswagen Brand Board of Management took further strategic decisions at a special meeting. CEO Dr. Herbert Diess announced major product decisions: a reorientation of the diesel strategy with the most advanced technologies, the development of a standardized electric architecture for passenger cars and light commercial vehicles, and a new approach for the next generation of the Phaeton. Investments are to be reduced by some one billion euros per year, the efficiency program is to be accelerated. Dr. Herbert Diess underscored: “The Volkswagen brand is repositioning itself for the future. We are becoming more efficient, we are giving our product range and our core technologies a new focus, and we are creating room for forward-looking technologies by speeding up the efficiency program.”

Reorientation of the diesel strategy
It was decided to switch over to installing only diesel drives with SCR and AdBlue technology in Europe and North America as soon as possible. Diesel vehicles will only be equipped with exhaust emissions systems that use the best environmental technology.

Systematic further development of the Modular Transverse Toolkit (MQB)
There will be a major development thrust for the proven MQB standardized technical toolkit, where Volkswagen Passenger Cars holds responsibility for development within the Group network. The focus is on plug-in hybrids with an even greater range, high-volume electric vehicles with a radius of up to 300 kilometers, a 48-volt power supply system (mild hybrid) as well as ever more efficient diesel, petrol and CNG concepts. A new standard with regard to connectivity and driver assistance systems is to be defined.

MEB electric toolkit
An MEB electric toolkit for future use in compact segment vehicles is to be developed based on the experience gained with existing vehicle architectures. This will be a multi-brand toolkit suitable for both passenger cars and light commercial vehicles and will thus leverage synergies from other electric vehicle projects in the Group. The standardized system will be designed for all body structures and vehicle types, thus allowing particularly emotional vehicle concepts, and will enable an all-electric range of 250 to 500 kilometers.

Phaeton redefined – the future is electric
The Volkswagen Phaeton has embodied the brand’s technological competence and brand ambition from the first generation onward. The future generation of the Phaeton will once again be the flagship for the brand’s profile over the next decade. In light of this, the Board of Management redefined the current project. The specification features a pure electric drive with long-distance capability, connectivity and next-generation assistance systems as well as an emotional design.

- - - Updated - - -

More trouble for VW... Consumer Reports finds reduced fuel economy and performance when testing cheat mode.

 

[Discoducky]

If they truly did real world drive in cheat mode then the delta's are not as big as I expected. It is not negligible, certainly litigious, but leaves me wondering why risk your company over this. Sure there is more to the story that is yet to be told...

 

[Mookuh]

One does wonder how many Tesla Patents will be used in the all-electric Phaeton, and if they're going to partner up with Tesla for the Superchargers.
VW pushing towards EVs in a big fashion would likely have a great impact on German adaption of EVs... we might see some actual benefits and promotions for electric mobility rather than lofty goals and no plan to achieve them. (The government said they want 1 million EVs on the roads by 2020, then did next to nothing to achieve that.)

Also wonder if I should apply with them since I hope to finish my thesis next month and both my bachelor's and master's thesis have been about EVs... I suspect they have a high demand for engineers in the EV field these days

 

[jgs]

If they truly did real world drive in cheat mode then the delta's are not as big as I expected. It is not negligible, certainly litigious, but leaves me wondering why risk your company over this. Sure there is more to the story that is yet to be told...

It's a big "if". When I watched the video, I didn't end up feeling confident they had enabled cheat mode and kept it on for the entire drive. Sampling NOx on a before/after drive would be a reason to be confident, but they don't report having done anything like that.