Warranty/Servicing - official Tesla responses (incl GeorgeB)

[4sevens.com]

That's certainly true, and anyone who thinks about it realizes that part of the sales price of any car (or anything else) is the warranty coverage. Included warranty coverage is the customary way of doing business in the automobile industry and customers use the length and degree of included coverage as a major factor when comparing car prices.

What's different about Tesla is that they are advertising a 4 year warranty, just like the other companies, but they neglect to make clear that you have to pay extra for it. There's no mention of the required service contract in the warranty itself, nor on the website where the warranty is specified.

For that matter, they are advertising an 8 year battery warranty and AFAIK there's been no information anywhere about if it will even be possible to keep that warranty intact, or what it might cost to do so.

Incorrect. Warranty and the optional service agreement are TWO separate matters. As bonnie cited on tesla's page, they are offering a standard 4 years / 50,000 mile warranty BUT that warranty is no good if you don't buy their service plan...

If you read the full specs for the car at Model S Specs and Standard Features | Tesla Motors, you'll see this:

View attachment 9809

 

[strider]

Just want to note that GeorgeB wrote primarily about the service plan in his post. His reference to the warranty was as follows:



This is no different to other car manufacturer. I get the discussion about price, I get the discussion about information, but (and maybe it's me) I don't get all this discussion about warranty.

Huh? It is ABSOLUTELY different to other car manufacturer. I have NEVER used a dealer for service and I have never been denied a warranty claim. I adhere to the manufacturer's maintenance schedule and do the work myself. Per Federal Law this is allowable and unless the manufacturer can prove that something I did or did not do caused the problem they must perform the repair under warranty.

At the end of the day, this is just a freaking car. There is nothing new or unique apart from the batteries and motor. All the mechanical bits are the same as every other car. I (or an independent shop) are perfectly capable of inspecting the suspension, brakes, wheels, wiper blades etc. My tire shop offers a $175 lifetime alignment. There's nothing "special" about aligning a Tesla. Bottom line is Tesla is not showing the value. Wipers cost like $26. Brakes are NOT going to be worn by 50k. Heck my wife's Diesel Jeep Liberty didn't use up it's first pads until 80k and we do some towing with that rig. With regen the Tesla it will be longer. Coolant lasts for 5 years these days. So again, Tesla, what are you actually DOING for my $600?

I completely understand if someone isn't mechanically inclined or wants the convenience of having Tesla do everything and if the price is worth it to you (especially those of you who are remote) then by all means participate in their plan. However, I LIKE doing maintenance on cars. Just last weekend my 1.5 year-old son and I changed the brake pads on my Roadster (not because they were worn, but because some of us are experimenting w/ different pad compounds, see here: Brake Pads ). It took longer with him "helping" but we had a ball.

So here's my plan. I will do all the mechanical inspections myself. I will pay Tesla an hour or 2 of shop labor to inspect the EV bits like running a bleed test on the pack. I will continue to pay for annual service on my Roadster (so I'm still "supporting the company"). I absolutely believe Model S is worth the money to buy the car. It's a phenomenal product. But I refuse to be bullied into paying for service that I can do myself.

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting that Toyota provides instructions for owner servicing for those that want to do the service themselves. Seems pretty simple from the instructions in the owners manual.

http://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om/OM42838U/pdf/sec_04-03.pdf

http://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om/OM42838U/pdf/sec_04-02.pdf

This is some great info. Thanks for posting!

 

[brianman]

Perhaps heems could have worded his posting more tactfully, and of course there's nothing wrong with others being critical of the service plan. However, that doesn't alter the fact that we all had a 100% refundable deposit coupled with an ability to defer for as long as we wanted to permit time to obtain all the information each person needed to become comfortable.

You're riding the defer argument too much here.

Suppose you sign the MVPA with faith that Tesla is going to treat its customers well.

Two days later they say required servicing will be $7,000 every 100 miles. Would you still be making this argument?


For most people, my theoeretical pricing would seem "outrageous" to announce after people lock in their MVPAs. To some, the $600 every 12,500 is equivalently troubling given the marketing of the Model S EV as cheaper than an ICE to maintain.


The key point of concern (as I see it in this and other threads) is voiding of warranty by not making an additional required payment for servicing, and one that isn't trivial (like the $10 mentioned in one of the threads). For those wanting a full service option, I think the $2400/4yr with ranger service is a good deal (and I think most agree).

 

[onlinespending]

I love to brag not only what great MPG my Prius gets, but how little maintenance is for it. 130k miles and my brakes still have over 50% of the original surface. The ICE has maybe 80k miles of time on it b/c of the EV/gliding capabilities so it's not running all the time. Oil changes are only every 10k miles and probably not really necessary even that often for most drivers.

Why does Tesla keep telling us that brake pads are covered by the service plan, when under no circumstances should they need replacement after just 4 years / 50k miles? Unless the brake pad has a defect and cracks, they simply will not be worn out enough to justify replacement. Which is why Tesla either needs to be clear that it will replace the brake pad at least once under the 4 year/50k warranty, regardless of the amount of wear, or simply shut up about this benefit that will never occur.

My concern is that maintaining the battery warranty after 4 years will require a comprehensive warranty extension which might be quite expensive, particularly for years 7 and 8.

Which is why Tesla needs to share more information about the maintenance required after year 4 and the associated costs ASAP. Every other car comes with a full maintenance schedule. Tesla needs to stop leaving us in the dark.

 

[Jaff]

That's right Nigel...I've just had my second annual service on my Roadster...it's not just the unique parts, but the unique training and experience that the Rangers have..no way is Johnny "the greaseball" local mechanic coming near my Roadster or Model S (No unqualified soul will ever service my cars period!)

I just reviewed my Roadster's annual maintenance service checklist...15 catagories containing 56 items...a typical licensed mechanic could perform most of the list WITH THE EXCEPTIONS of the Motor, Battery & PEM maintenance...gee, kind of sounds important that the Motor, Battery & PEM (most important & expensive parts of the car) be kept up by someone qualified to do so, don't it?

I can't for the life of me understand how folks could ever even contemplate this (Johnny Greaseball) let alone waste time pissing & moaning about it...you just spent six figures on a new car, then you allow Barney Fife to work on it to save a few quid...:scared::biggrin:

Anyway you look at it Model S is a performance car with state-of-the-art technology.

I'm not going to give him:

View attachment 9763

One of these:

View attachment 9764
And let him loose on my Model S! :wink:

 

[bonnie]

You KNOW that the Menlo Park service manager, Johnny, is now being called "Greaseball Johnny".

 

[Jaff]

I've always referred to him as "Mr". Greaseball Johnny...:wink::biggrin:

(I hear he's an artist with a torque wrench!)

You KNOW that the Menlo Park service manager, Johnny, is now being called "Greaseball Johnny".

 

[Trnsl8r]

Am I the only one getting a sense of deja vu from when the options pricing was announced?

 

[mnx]

Am I the only one getting a sense of deja vu from when the options pricing was announced?

Not at all...

Just wait until the super charger announcement next week, I'm sure they'll be plenty of fuss and disappointment around that also...

 

[Doug_G]

Actually, my Roadster would already have had at least one brake pad replaced already because a chunk broke off of it. It's not covered by warranty as it is a wear item - no Model S-like service plan - and Tesla insists on changing the rotor if they change a pad. So that would have been a fair bit of money for a modest chunk of missing brake pad. So the pad has not been changed. (I'm going to swap them over to Carbotech... they're in FedEx's hands right now.)

 

[4sevens.com]

Not at all...

Just wait until the super charger announcement next week, I'm sure they'll be plenty of fuss and disappointment around that also...

I think a light bulb came on... demand is currently greater than supply (for the time being) so the way they deal with it is by raising the bar. This natural economics... there is no other way to deal with it. They have thousands on the waiting list - making the requirements higher doesn't really hurt them - people start dropping like flied but they keep going as long as they have a good list of "faithfuls." But in the long run, they're going to lose people either by how they treated reservationists that canceled or by observation of how this company treated it's early adopters...

 

[Lloyd]

Ok I tried to be prepared today and get some G-48 coolant to be able to top off the coolant levels of the motor and battery if need. Toyota (and Tesla?) is very specific that this coolant must be used at specific dilution percentage. The problem is that G-48 is an industrial coolant and is not available for retail purchase! BMW / Saab uses this coolant and you can buy it from them. $$$

Edit: Saab recently switched to Dex-cool and does not carry it anymore. BMW dealer and the source below is all I could find.

Update: I was able to find it online at a motorcycle parts store. 1 Litre at $18.99 plus $8 shipping. Should be fine for topping levels when needed.

http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/MOTOREX-G48-ANTIFREEZE

 

[strider]

I just reviewed my Roadster's annual maintenance service checklist...15 catagories containing 56 items...a typical licensed mechanic could perform most of the list WITH THE EXCEPTIONS of the Motor, Battery & PEM maintenance...gee, kind of sounds important that the Motor, Battery & PEM (most important & expensive parts of the car) be kept up by someone qualified to do so, don't it?

I can't for the life of me understand how folks could ever even contemplate this (Johnny Greaseball) let alone waste time pissing & moaning about it...you just spent six figures on a new car, then you allow Barney Fife to work on it to save a few quid...:scared::biggrin:

Uh, *I'M* planning to do all mechanical work on my Model S. I don't trust Barney Fife either. Doug's brake pad comment is exactly why I do things myself. Replacing rotors every time you replace the brake pads is ridiculous and shows that either Tesla knows nothing about fixing cars or is a blatant money grab (I think they do know how to work on cars so my vote is for the latter). There is a published minimum rotor thickness so as long as the rotor is not at or below the minimum you can keep using it.

Also, the only reason the motor and PEM need maintenance in the Roadster is because they are air-cooled. As I posted earlier I am fine w/ paying for Roadster service because there is actual work to be done and I can see the value of them pulling the parts and cleaning them, etc. But in Model S all that stuff is liquid-cooled. So as long as the coolant isn't leaking out there's nothing to do. At least I can't THINK of anything that would need to be done. If Tesla can tell me otherwise and explain the work they're doing to justify the price then I'll happily pay it. But so far it just sounds like they pulled a number out of their arses (or did a profit gap-analysis) and figured that since it was in line w/ ICE's in the same price range people would pay it because that's what they're used to paying on their current cars.

That being said, and as I posted earlier, not everyone is mechanically inclined or wants to spend an afternoon wrenching on their car. If that's you then buy Tesla's service and enjoy life. But it just doesn't add up for me.

 

[ElSupreme]

BMW includes a no-cost maintenance program for 4 years or 50,000 miles. Note though that on the sales pages of their website they ask you to factor that in when comparing costs to other cars and claim that you need to measure the true total cost. They say the maintenance program is worth $2,000.

For years 5 and 6 you can buy two-year plan as follows:
View attachment 9781

All this can be picked apart, but in truth it's probably comparable. It would be fair to ask if Tesla should be comparable or better/cheaper.

---U p d a t e ---

On to Mercedes then. I scanned through their webpage and couldn't find prices.....Did find this in the FAQ:

But you must remember that this price is for 50,000 to 100,000 miles which is probably about twice as costly as the first 50,000 miles. And on these BMWs you have synthetic oil changes (I think BMW puts like 7L in their cars too), and before 100,000 miles probably some transmission work (at least a fluid flush), new spark plugs, and probably water pump and timing belt/chain, and brake pads. These all come after 50,000k and should be done around 80k in general. All of this (except maybe the water pump) should be stuff that the Tesla doesn't have!

Sure the Tesla has lots of other things that are complex, but most of them are electronic and really maintenance free. If they break they break. You can't really 'maintain' them. And besides is the Tesla tech going to do anything to them other than plug in a diagnostic tool?

The point is an EV IS less maintenance. Tesla is doing inspections. And a lot of that is for THEIR benefit. I don't know why I have to pay for it. From a business aspect it makes perfect sense. I am just disappointed in the price. I mean at my electric rates and 20,000 miles per year I will end up paying more than TWICE in 'maintenance/inspections' than I do in electricity! Probably around $720 for maintenance, and around $350 in electricity. And I don't produce any electricity at my house (... yet).

 

[Doug_G]

Doug's brake pad comment is exactly why I do things myself. Replacing rotors every time you replace the brake pads is ridiculous and shows that either Tesla knows nothing about fixing cars or is a blatant money grab (I think they do know how to work on cars so my vote is for the latter). There is a published minimum rotor thickness so as long as the rotor is not at or below the minimum you can keep using it.

I believe they do have sound reasons for that decision. First of all Tesla has small shops and they don't have the ability to machine rotors in-house (heck right now Toronto can't mount tires themselves, although I hear they're getting their own machine). If you shop it out to a third party there are delays, it will cost a good fraction of the price of a new part, and you have no control over the quality of the work. I'm personally quite willing to try it without machining, and I can deal with any fallout; but they can't simply hand a car back not knowing if they've fixed it correctly.

 

[RDoc]

Incorrect. Warranty and the optional service agreement are TWO separate matters. As bonnie cited on tesla's page, they are offering a standard 4 years / 50,000 mile warranty BUT that warranty is no good if you don't buy their service plan...

I don't understand what you are saying or what you think is incorrect. The warranty coverage is dependent on buying the service plan, so I don't see why you'd consider them separate. I suppose you could buy the service plan but still insist on paying for warranty items, but I doubt that will be a popular option. Not buying the service plan but keeping the warranty isn't an option.

The references from bonnie1194 are just the Tesla warranty statement which does not include any mention that you must buy a service plan to enjoy any warranty benefits.

 

[kevincwelch]

It is not unreasonable to say that people that are not comfortable in buying the the car shouldn't. George has said this in the past and I didn't find his remark silly or extremely unhelpful.

Larry, you and heems are absolutely right about this point, although you said it more eloquently than heems seems to be capable of doing so.

So, this statement applies to me, since I am P8995 and haven't received my request to finalize yet. So, I could walk away at this point if I felt this service plan was an undue burden.

However, what irks me is that there are many people who finalized their order and THEN were informed of this new requirement. (I suppose it's not really the cost itself that bothers me, but the stipulations and how this is tied to the warranty.)

Beyond this, let's say I finalize my order in November. What happens if Tesla comes out in December and states internet service will be $50/mo and you have to get internet service for the car to receive software updates and for it to receive warnings (whatever) and if you don't, your warranty may be voided?

I'd flip my lid if I had finalized.

What then?

 

[bonnie]

Incorrect. Warranty and the optional service agreement are TWO separate matters. As bonnie cited on tesla's page, they are offering a standard 4 years / 50,000 mile warranty BUT that warranty is no good if you don't buy their service plan...

No, the warranty is voided f you don't take care of the car by bringing it in for annual service. There is nothing anywhere that says you must buy a service plan. (FYI, I posted the separate warranty info for the vehicle vs. battery because you were quoting info from the battery spec page only, wondering if the vehicle was even covered. It would be great if you could update your original post, so that it doesn't further confuse new people to the party.)

 

[teslasguy]

I'm amazed that this debate continues when the facts at this point seem pretty clear, at least to me. Every car company I know of requires that the car be maintained according to their maintenance requirements for the warranty to be valid. The difference here is just that this is a new car with new technology that no one else is "currently" certified to maintain "yet". There are two reasons for this. 1) No one else has seen the current market for this to justify the investment and 2)I'm sure Tesla has their hands full just hiring and training their own field staff to support the new Model S. Assuming that Tesla is successful in building the volume that will entice others into a like investment, I see this as not an unusual nor unexpected situation. Kudos to Tesla for believing enough in their future to put this program in place now. Considering everything it looks to me like Tesla is working hard to make this plan have real value to us, even though the reality is that they do have a short term lock on such service.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kevincwelch]

No, the warranty is voided f you don't take care of the car by bringing it in for annual service. There is nothing anywhere that says you must buy a service plan.

Bonnie, I see your point :wink:

How do you explain this statement directly from George?

So, to answer the question clearly about whether failure to do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections voids your warranty, yes it does.

As I read this, George is not saying that you have to buy the service plan, but he is saying that you must have your car inspected annually or at every 12,500 miles. As far as I see it, you can buy this service from Tesla for $600/y or prepay it at $475/y. At present, there seems to be no other option (e.g., pay as you go). Therefore, you must buy the service plan at this point to get your car inspected. If you do not get your car inspected, your warranty is voided.