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Warranty/Servicing - official Tesla responses (incl GeorgeB)

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Yes actually that is exactly what was sent in the email. I was asked not to disclose much information so I will not post the name of the rep. My configuration was just about 90,000, went pretty much for everything so you can see why I am sad about dropping out. I was scheduled to have the car Nov/Dec. I would not have any problem taking my vehicle in for a check up and paying a small labor charge but felt this was being shoved down my throat. Wish they would have let me do that but was told NO WAY. Can not believe Tesla would do this, never expected it and it is only on principal that I asked for my money back. I lose out over my principals. I had faith in Tesla and learned a lesson once again.

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It is not about the money. I want the freedom to chose what I do with my vehicle and if I chose to maintain it outside of Tesla I should not be punished by no longer having a warranty. I understand this is new technology and if certain items need to be checked by Tesla fine. Set up a fee schedule for only those items and let me decide what works best for me. Perhaps the all inclusive plan would have been best but I was not given an option. The way I took it was pay 600.00 per year pay up front for 4 years with a discount or have no warranty no other option. When I was told that I realized I would be purchasing a 90k car without a warranty, would you do that? I felt it was too risky

I am 100% with you, it is not about the money. While many of us could afford to have our pockets picked, I, for one, am not going to smile about it.
 
I suppose it's how you interpret the tone, but I don't see that as a rude statement.

Tone is important. Word choice is important as well.

Being in the customer service business (sort of), people respond better (and turn around) in my experience if one is empathetic, apologetic, and does what one can to work with the customer rather than suggest that there is something wrong with the customer (as in "stomaching" it). Just my opinion...

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This move would have had less consequence if Tesla was sold out for a few years. The problem is, there aren't enough reservations to fill an entire years of production. To make matters worse, all these potential customers word of mouth sales will be affected. This leads to Tesla having to advertise( not cheap) in order to sell cars. Jumping over dollars to pick up nickels NEVER works.

The word of mouth is what I think will hurt Tesla, but I don't know how much it will. It's hard to say how many TMC members will cancel or defer, but what percentage of actual reservation holders is that? 5%? 10%? I think the price point and prejudice against EV are what will hurt Tesla.

I wonder if Tesla ever considered an effort to really please the early adopters with incentives (or whatever) and let the early adopters disseminate the good deeds. I think that would be more potent from a marketing standpoint. The Top 3% of Americans is a small pot, and there's a lot of competition for those members when it comes to automobiles. I believe the PR blunders are going to make it more challenging for Tesla to break into that market.

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Epiphany: Referral program. Refer a friend and you both get half off prepaid four-year maintenance. Refer two, maintenance is free for you. Everyone happy.

If you refer 10 people, can you get a free HPWC? Tesla can have one of those little punch cards like you get at the coffee shop! :smile: But seriously, the whole model of car sales is so radically different with Tesla that incentive programs like this would make sense.
 
My response to GeorgeB

I am sending this message in hopes it reaches George Blankenship.


George, I hope you will consider my view of this service contract dust up.

First I want to say I am happily a shareholder in Tesla (hopefully a Gen3 customer one day). I appreciate the effort and risk you and everyone at Tesla are undertaking. I also realize I am on the outside. Among other things, I don’t know the cost of starting a national service center from day one when there are only a few thousand Teslas scattered across the country.

All that being said, to me the service contract plan sounds like a mistake from both a mission and bottom line perspective.

Tesla may or may not have an official mission statement, but I have repeatedly heard Elon Musk say he started Tesla to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles. I have also recently heard Musk say that what will separate Tesla from the other automakers is that Tesla will never make a bad product. He explained that other companies had allowed a “bean counter” mentality to drive their decisions rather than creating an experience of wonder and delight.

I really think the service contract as offered is headwind to those two objectives (and I think by being responsive to your customers reaction to the plan you have the opportunity to turn it into a tailwind).

Yesterday I read through all the posts on Tesla Motors Club forum since your posting at the start of the week. It does seem your posting has had an impact. My sense is it’s about 50/50 between those who are basically okay with the service plan and those who are basically not okay with it.

I consistently read three points from the not okay camp it is difficult not to empathize with.

Firstly, the low maintenance cost of the vehicle, and EVs in general, has been cited as one of the basic advantages of an EV. Now in year 1, the maintenance cost is $5-600, perhaps comparable to ICE service contracts, but more than most people would pay out of pocket. Beyond being an irritant to those buying the car now (“I thought I’d save $1,200 in gas a year, but now half of that is chewed up in the cost of the service contract”), it leaves an open target of ridicule to detractors of EVs, and implies a credibility issue about the promises of EVs and Tesla. This does not help accelerate the advent of electric vehicles. It does not make for an experience of wonder and delight for customers either.

Second point, having the very people, the early adopters who helped Tesla remain in business, take so much of the hit for the development of the service network. Last I checked, Tesla has $133 million dollars they can use as working capital because these customers put some skin in the game. Additionally, I think they’ve already taken one for the team in the past month. Tesla has been delivering cars out of sequence. This is probably quite beneficial to Tesla to batch the production and distribution of the cars and ask the reservation holders to be patient when they see someone a few hundred reservations behind them get their car first. These customers have taken this hit, when it comes to the cost of service, I think Tesla can step up and take a hit.

Finally, I’ve read of the feeling of being forced into an expensive service contract by the threat of losing one’s warranty. I think for many reservationists they do not simply feel like consumers making a purchase. I think so many of them feel like a part of Tesla, and a part of the advent of EVs. The postings I read strongly suggest the compulsion of an expensive service contract undermines that connection to the company. There is clear reason to have the cars, a brand new product, inspected by Tesla each year. This benefits the owner, but it is clearly a major benefit for Tesla today and as it develops cars for the future. This could be an opportunity to deepen people’s sense of being a part of Tesla’s success by having the car checked on. The cost of the contract frankly replaces that sense with the one of being nickeled and dimed by a faceless corporation which does so simply because they can. Not helpful to the advent of EVs or an experience of wonder and delight.

I told you I think the plan is also off the mark financially.

If Tesla were to drop the 4 year plan by $600 that would mean a drop in cash flow of $3 million in the rest of 2012, if 5,000 cars are sold. At this revised price, on an ongoing basis, for every 20,000 cars Tesla sells it would mean $3 million less in earnings, likely $2 million after taxes, or $.02 eps each year.

What might Tesla receive in return for forgoing $3 million or so in cash flow these next several months, and $2 million, or $.02 in eps for every 20,000 cars sold?


  1. Vehicle sales. At an $8,000 profit for vehicle, it would take 250 to make up for lost service contract revenue of 20,000 cars at the lower contract rate. Might 1.25% of potential customers walk away because of the cost of the service contract? Perhaps not, but consider how B, C, and D might impact how many look at a Tesla in the first place.
  2. Free enthusiastic marketing. You have a very loyal enthusiastic following who feel like they are part of Tesla. Could you produce and buy ad space for $2 million for the impact of keeping each set of 20,000 enthusiasts speaking from a point of view of wonder, delight and participation in the progress Tesla represents?
  3. Protecting entryway to mainstream public. How many fewer mainstream consumers will be opened to the idea of EVs if the media comes to view the lower maintenance cost of EVs as a fallacy? Comes to view the claims in general of EV makers with skepticism?
  4. Safeguarding Tesla’s first only chance at a first impression. Right now Tesla means progress to so many of us. Isn’t it worth a few pennies in eps to protect that impression rather than falling into “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”

Thanks for your time
Steve
 
If the base price had been $2000 more and Tesla gave 4 years free maintenance, would that be any different to you?

Yes, because the purchase price was announced a long time ago and I for one was ready to presume that the advertised "low maintenance fees" could very well be rolled into that price, á la BMW. But the discussed, not-so-super-low, maintenance fees were sprung upon us just recently.

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Tone is important. Word choice is important as well.

Being in the customer service business (sort of), people respond better (and turn around) in my experience if one is empathetic, apologetic, and does what one can to work with the customer rather than suggest that there is something wrong with the customer (as in "stomaching" it). Just my opinion...

I'm with you there. Even though I could easily understand TM employees being overworked and this one having a bit of a bad day, wording like that in an email to a customer is unforgivable. Better to leave it unanswered today, get a mug of coffee and answer tomorrow... politely.
 
Yes, because the purchase price was announced a long time ago and I for one was ready to presume that the advertised "low maintenance fees" could very well be rolled into that price, á la BMW. But the discussed, not-so-super-low, maintenance fees were sprung upon us just recently.
Pricing was announced only about 9 months ago. There was a nebulous "around X" number before that. I never really assumed the fees would be much different than the Roadster. I figured less, but not by much (though it's not less excepting ranger fees are different).
 
Now we know that maintenance on the Model S is $0.05/mile. At the usually quoted nationwide price per kWh, fuel for the Model is about $0.04/mile. That's a combined $0.09/mile.

A 2012 BMW 535 gets 25MPG (Fuel Economy of the 2012 BMW 535i). Maintenance/Service/Roadside Assistance is no extra charge. That's a combined $0.15/mile for much of the US.

After the 50K miles are up, Model S has saved you $3000. However, it cost more than $3000 more than the BMW 535i in any reasonable comparison (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1203_2012_bmw_535i_first_test/). And, that's not including the ~$300 higher destination charge for Model S.

Resale value at that point (4 yrs/50K miles) for Model S is a guess, and may swamp other costs. 2008 BMW 535is with around 50K miles are worth $25K-$30K (about 40%-50% of new), according to cars.com. With V2 or V3 of Model S available in 4 years, its hard to see a used Model S going for more than that.

Tesla's electric drive is great. The touchscreen is cool. But, there's no economical advantage to buying a Model S that I can see.
 
I'm going to hope...hope...that by the time the first owners hit 12K miles (as that will happen well before the first year of ownership) there will be a list of the minimum items necessary to NOT void the warranty available for owner or Tesla certified tech that isn't the dealer.

It really pains me to think that I could pay $600 for wiper blades. I'm very worried that all they will do is look at the car and not actually DO anything.

TM Certified tech "Here's your car back",
I'll say "What did you do or find?"
TM Certified tech "Nothing!"
I'll say "#$(%#$%&@$#)%$)%*#$%, thanks see ya in a few months!"
 
Tesla's electric drive is great. The touchscreen is cool. But, there's no economical advantage to buying a Model S that I can see.

I liked your analysis, but I'm not sure there *ever* was an economical advantage. I think if one considers the following other issues, the economic advantage of the Model S dwindles quickly.

1. I think the majority of people here usually buy in the $30,000 range or less -- at least that's my impression
2. Income polls suggest that the majority of people earn <$200,000 annually and have families. These people do not typically buy cars >20% of income levels
3. Polls here and ones I collected show that the majority of people are getting 85 kWh, performance, sig performance, or 60 kWh models. Most are getting multiple options. This is making the car already a $75,000 to $90,000 car.
4. Some people here have openly admitted that they were "stretching" to buy this car
5. Plugging in costs money -- not as much as gas.
6. Maintenance is more expensive than most ICE vehicles in the first 4 years
7. There are unspoken expenses yet to be offered/forced

If you had already planned to purchase a $85,000 car, then maybe there is an economic advantage. Honestly, I think most people are in the market for $30,000-$40,000 cars.

I've never looked at this purchase as something that was an economical decision (I'm not saying that you said this at all; that's just my view.) This purchase is something that is cool, an improvement for the environment, and gets me off of foreign oil.

(Each blog post is making achieving that end a little more frustrating, however.)
 
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What do you think the impact will be of bad word of mouth versus cars on the road? I know in previous threads we've discussed the sales impact of the car on the road and buyers showing it off to friends. I really doubt owners are going to show off the car and then say "Yea, but the $2000 maintenance sucks, don't buy one." It's only folks like that drop out that will be giving bad word of mouth. Do you think that'll trump the impact of cars on the road?
I think the biggest impact will be showing the car off proudly and telling everyone about it. That enthusiasm translates to sales. I used to talk the car up at any chance. Now I don't ever say anything anymore because it's embarrassing. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands that feel the same. Just look at how many cancellations there are here. If the biggest die-hards are not happy, how is the average Joe going to feel? I bet that the cancellation rate is going to be pretty big. Most people can't take one dissapointment after another. Eventually they just give up. I know I'm close.
 
I think the biggest impact will be showing the car off proudly and telling everyone about it. That enthusiasm translates to sales. I used to talk the car up at any chance. Now I don't ever say anything anymore because it's embarrassing. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands that feel the same. Just look at how many cancellations there are here. If the biggest die-hards are not happy, how is the average Joe going to feel? I bet that the cancellation rate is going to be pretty big. Most people can't take one dissapointment after another. Eventually they just give up. I know I'm close.

+1

waiting for the european numbers and we'll see... for the moment: 66% go <> 33% nogo
 
If the biggest die-hards are not happy, how is the average Joe going to feel? I bet that the cancellation rate is going to be pretty big. Most people can't take one dissapointment after another. Eventually they just give up. I know I'm close.
Right, but I don't think that has much impact on future reservationists. The current ones are getting hit with something they didn't expect (or not at this cost level) and that's a morale blow that has an impact beyond the dollar value.

New buyers are coming into a known situation, no surprises. I don't think they'll blink much at it. Had I just looked at Tesla for the first time today, it's just be part of the cost factor. It's possible that $2000 would tip things if I were at the edge of my cost vs. value proposition, but otherwise it wouldn't have much impact.
 
New reservationists though have to be pretty inquisitive. If you look at the warranty specs, there's no mention of the service charge, nor is there anything about it in the options. There is a note in the Facts sections that the maintenance should be minimal.
The only place AFAIK that it's mentioned on the website is in the blog, and the fact that it's mandatory is pretty far down in the comments. Despite the discussion of footnotes, there aren't any about the service plan cost, which is a bit off-putting.
There's also been no mention of what is going to be required to keep the battery warranty valid after 50k miles either.
 
How does someone tell if it's a stripped down version with the Model S? There's no visual external indication except for the Perf and that's pretty subtle.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of your post, I'm just not sure how the brand gets devalued without fairly close inspection (such as knowing the battery size).

I didn't mean that others would think you had a beater as you drove past them at 60 mph, more that everyone you run into (not literally) will want to see your car and how cool it is but then I can hear "you don't have Nav/leather/sunroof/xxx? My Nissan/BMW/MB/Lexus has all of that. What class car is this again?"

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I'd agree. Sure, less "gee whiz" features to show off to your friends, but it's not like they're that noticeable anyway. A smaller battery? I'm sure people will realize there are larger versions. Weaker stereo and no offline maps? Not many will notice this either. Air suspension? Nope. I REALLY disagree with how Tesla has handled this, but for markedly different reasons.

Agree to disagree. I think this car will be inspected closely because of its novelty and compared immediately to others in its class. I know I would. Especially if trying to decide whether I wanted to get one or not.
 
1. I think the majority of people here usually buy in the $30,000 range or less -- at least that's my impression

Not to mention that the tires (event the 19") are way more expensive than the tires people are used to purchasing for their $30,000 car. If the maintenance contract included tires (at least for the 19", and perhaps tires at half price for the 21") then I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.
 
I am sending this message in hopes it reaches George Blankenship.


George, I hope you will consider my view of this service contract dust up.

First I want to say I am happily a shareholder in Tesla (hopefully a Gen3 customer one day). I appreciate the effort and risk you and everyone at Tesla are undertaking. I also realize I am on the outside. Among other things, I don’t know the cost of starting a national service center from day one when there are only a few thousand Teslas scattered across the country.

All that being said, to me the service contract plan sounds like a mistake from both a mission and bottom line perspective.

Tesla may or may not have an official mission statement, but I have repeatedly heard Elon Musk say he started Tesla to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles. I have also recently heard Musk say that what will separate Tesla from the other automakers is that Tesla will never make a bad product. He explained that other companies had allowed a “bean counter” mentality to drive their decisions rather than creating an experience of wonder and delight.

I really think the service contract as offered is headwind to those two objectives (and I think by being responsive to your customers reaction to the plan you have the opportunity to turn it into a tailwind).

Yesterday I read through all the posts on Tesla Motors Club forum since your posting at the start of the week. It does seem your posting has had an impact. My sense is it’s about 50/50 between those who are basically okay with the service plan and those who are basically not okay with it.

I consistently read three points from the not okay camp it is difficult not to empathize with.

Firstly, the low maintenance cost of the vehicle, and EVs in general, has been cited as one of the basic advantages of an EV. Now in year 1, the maintenance cost is $5-600, perhaps comparable to ICE service contracts, but more than most people would pay out of pocket. Beyond being an irritant to those buying the car now (“I thought I’d save $1,200 in gas a year, but now half of that is chewed up in the cost of the service contract”), it leaves an open target of ridicule to detractors of EVs, and implies a credibility issue about the promises of EVs and Tesla. This does not help accelerate the advent of electric vehicles. It does not make for an experience of wonder and delight for customers either.

Second point, having the very people, the early adopters who helped Tesla remain in business, take so much of the hit for the development of the service network. Last I checked, Tesla has $133 million dollars they can use as working capital because these customers put some skin in the game. Additionally, I think they’ve already taken one for the team in the past month. Tesla has been delivering cars out of sequence. This is probably quite beneficial to Tesla to batch the production and distribution of the cars and ask the reservation holders to be patient when they see someone a few hundred reservations behind them get their car first. These customers have taken this hit, when it comes to the cost of service, I think Tesla can step up and take a hit.

Finally, I’ve read of the feeling of being forced into an expensive service contract by the threat of losing one’s warranty. I think for many reservationists they do not simply feel like consumers making a purchase. I think so many of them feel like a part of Tesla, and a part of the advent of EVs. The postings I read strongly suggest the compulsion of an expensive service contract undermines that connection to the company. There is clear reason to have the cars, a brand new product, inspected by Tesla each year. This benefits the owner, but it is clearly a major benefit for Tesla today and as it develops cars for the future. This could be an opportunity to deepen people’s sense of being a part of Tesla’s success by having the car checked on. The cost of the contract frankly replaces that sense with the one of being nickeled and dimed by a faceless corporation which does so simply because they can. Not helpful to the advent of EVs or an experience of wonder and delight.

I told you I think the plan is also off the mark financially.

If Tesla were to drop the 4 year plan by $600 that would mean a drop in cash flow of $3 million in the rest of 2012, if 5,000 cars are sold. At this revised price, on an ongoing basis, for every 20,000 cars Tesla sells it would mean $3 million less in earnings, likely $2 million after taxes, or $.02 eps each year.

What might Tesla receive in return for forgoing $3 million or so in cash flow these next several months, and $2 million, or $.02 in eps for every 20,000 cars sold?


  1. Vehicle sales. At an $8,000 profit for vehicle, it would take 250 to make up for lost service contract revenue of 20,000 cars at the lower contract rate. Might 1.25% of potential customers walk away because of the cost of the service contract? Perhaps not, but consider how B, C, and D might impact how many look at a Tesla in the first place.
  2. Free enthusiastic marketing. You have a very loyal enthusiastic following who feel like they are part of Tesla. Could you produce and buy ad space for $2 million for the impact of keeping each set of 20,000 enthusiasts speaking from a point of view of wonder, delight and participation in the progress Tesla represents?
  3. Protecting entryway to mainstream public. How many fewer mainstream consumers will be opened to the idea of EVs if the media comes to view the lower maintenance cost of EVs as a fallacy? Comes to view the claims in general of EV makers with skepticism?
  4. Safeguarding Tesla’s first only chance at a first impression. Right now Tesla means progress to so many of us. Isn’t it worth a few pennies in eps to protect that impression rather than falling into “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”

    Thanks for your time
    Steve


  1. +1
    You expressed exactly how I feel. As i said to one of the nicer advocates when I read of the lighting being deleted (visor and rear pillar) tell Tesla to PLEASE STOP TAKING THINGS AWAY!!!!!!! ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!! Get production going and deliver cars to your followers and they will make many many future sales for you, but you have to treat them right make them feel special!! NOT BETRAYED AND CHEATED That gets around the same as praise. I ask myself why I hate with a passion the oil companies, simple they and the speculators are stealing the people blind. Why? Because they can and what is a person who lives rural to do? Walk 15 miles to the main road and then try to secure transportation in order to get to work. I have said this more than once and conveyed this to the advocate helping me complete my order. I will NEVER BUY ANOTHER GAS ONLY CAR AGAIN! And I wish to live long enough if only by one day to see Tesla and the electric car market kill these bastards where they are choking on the gas. Most likely not gonna happen but that is my wish. Tesla look at how they treat their customers charging what they want because you have little or NO CHOICE!!! People resent being forced to do things and will usually react in the positive when given a CHOICE AND GOOD REASON!
 
Hi Marcus,

Perhaps heems could have worded his posting more tactfully, and of course there's nothing wrong with others being critical of the service plan. However, that doesn't alter the fact that we all had a 100% refundable deposit coupled with an ability to defer for as long as we wanted to permit time to obtain all the information each person needed to become comfortable. Many early adopters simply don't require that level of comfort and are able to proceed with more uncertainty. However, personally, I didn't find the $600/year pricing of the service plan surprising in the context of the already existing Roadster plan. I was pleasantly surprised by the ability to reduce that number to $475/year by paying in advance, by the greatly improved Ranger pricing, roadside towing, loaner cars, etc.

It is not unreasonable to say that people that are not comfortable in buying the the car shouldn't. George has said this in the past and I didn't find his remark silly or extremely unhelpful.

Larry

You're riding the defer argument too much here.

Suppose you sign the MVPA with faith that Tesla is going to treat its customers well.

Two days later they say required servicing will be $7,000 every 100 miles. Would you still be making this argument?

Larry, you and heems are absolutely right about this point, although you said it more eloquently than heems seems to be capable of doing so.

So, this statement applies to me, since I am P8995 and haven't received my request to finalize yet. So, I could walk away at this point if I felt this service plan was an undue burden.

However, what irks me is that there are many people who finalized their order and THEN were informed of this new requirement. (I suppose it's not really the cost itself that bothers me, but the stipulations and how this is tied to the warranty.)

Beyond this, let's say I finalize my order in November. What happens if Tesla comes out in December and states internet service will be $50/mo and you have to get internet service for the car to receive software updates and for it to receive warnings (whatever) and if you don't, your warranty may be voided?

I'd flip my lid if I had finalized.

What then?

Hi Kevin,

The common thread in Brian's and your responses to my posting is whether to trust Tesla.

So at the risk of displeasing Brian my answer to your question is quite simple. If you don't trust Tesla to do right by you, and if there are unanswered questions by the time you have to commit, then simply defer until you have your answers. It may not take too long to have your answers. No big deal, you've waited this long why not wait a few more weeks if that makes you more comfortable in your buying decision?

In my own case I signed my MVPA a few months ago so I am trusting Tesla. So far I certainly have not been outraged by the details revealed concerning the service plan. In fact I deliberately set my expectations based on the Roadster service plan. As a result I was pleasantly surprised when I learned the Model S service plan is superior to the Roadster's in both costs and features.

To answer Brian's hypothetical question would I have been upset if the service plan was $7,000 every 100 miles, sure who wouldn't, but what does that have to do with the reality of the situation? :confused: The reality of the situation is that the service plan is better than what I expected. I set reasonable expectations, trusted Tesla, and wasn't disappointed.

With regard to what some are calling a conditional warranty, I'm buying a very expensive and revolutionary car, why would it even occur to me to risk it by not performing annual maintanence? If I perform the maintanence, why risk the wellbeing on my car to others who do not have the necessary training or proprietary equipment? If the cost of the service plan really doesn't bother you, then don't get hung up on all these discussions on legalisms. Just rely on your common sense. This is probably the most expensive car you've ever purchased, are you going to take shortcuts with its maintanence? If not, all this back and forth discussion is merely academic.

Some people don't have the temperment to trust a corporation. Other people have difficulties setting reasonable expectations. In either case deferal is probably the best course of action. There's no shame in that. We all love the idea behind Tesla, but some of us need to step back...Take a breath...It may be a ground breaking car, but its still only a car. Life is too short to get outraged by a service plan.

I've exhausted all I have to say about this topic, so I hope you won't take offense if I excuss myself from further discussions.

Good luck with your decisions.

Larry
 
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Thanks, Larry. You make some excellent points, and I do see the other side of things now. The Model S will be in my garage in 2013, but it will probably be there later than I originally expected (due to deferment). I'd like to see how the other expenses unfold.