The lesson that Tesla hopefully learns is that they should not be using Tesla math when describing their products. They should take a page out of the book of Rolls-Royce and merely say "more than adequate." What is the purpose of stating HP? it is mainly bragging rights. The driving dynamics of the vehicle should do the talking not a piece of paper with some numbers on it.
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
WK, you knew what the battery could deliver so, if you were fooled, you were fooling yourself.
As for my analogy, it works if you look at it from the "if the map and the terrain disagree, believe the terrain" standpoint.
The nice thing about life is we can disagree about such things without being disagreeable. In that spirit, feel free to seek a free upgrade if you feel you are owed it and I will happily ride your coat tails if you are successful along with thanking you for your efforts.
As for my analogy, it works if you look at it from the "if the map and the terrain disagree, believe the terrain" standpoint.
The nice thing about life is we can disagree about such things without being disagreeable. In that spirit, feel free to seek a free upgrade if you feel you are owed it and I will happily ride your coat tails if you are successful along with thanking you for your efforts.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
I realize that the OP is determined to be right in this, and has excellent debating skills, however these types of posts will only serve to force Tesla to lock down any consumer information unless filtered and approved by a batter of attorneys and a full legal department.
For me, getting some unfiltered information about new options and capabilities has been of the things I have found to be most endearing about Tesla. Elon has felt free to discuss his goals and aspirations for his car with his followers. By doing this, some inaccurate information might slip out, but with good intent to inform, not to mislead. If Elon stated a capability, then I believe that in his mind it was accurate, however by the time it gets into the hands of customers, in hindsight it might have been better left unsaid.
On the hp topic, the company went out of their way to offer an unveiling of the new dual motor drive system. Attendees were offered rides in the car, under controlled conditions, to give them a feeling of how the cars accelerated. Shortly afterwards showrooms were supplied with demo cars, so people could try before they would buy. Nobody was forced to buy anything before being able to experience them first hand.
Now that people are putting the cars and claims underneath a microscope, there is the ability to pick apart the offerings.
If this keeps up, Tesla will simply change from being a open communication company, to one where little is disclosed. Not sure if this is really what anyone wants.
I do remember one person who hooked up his car to a dyno to get some first hand numbers. The Tesla promptly broke the dyno by snapping the machines drive belt. That dyno was supposed to be capable of measuring 1,000 lbs of torque, but evidently not strong enough to measure Tesla Torque.
For me, getting some unfiltered information about new options and capabilities has been of the things I have found to be most endearing about Tesla. Elon has felt free to discuss his goals and aspirations for his car with his followers. By doing this, some inaccurate information might slip out, but with good intent to inform, not to mislead. If Elon stated a capability, then I believe that in his mind it was accurate, however by the time it gets into the hands of customers, in hindsight it might have been better left unsaid.
On the hp topic, the company went out of their way to offer an unveiling of the new dual motor drive system. Attendees were offered rides in the car, under controlled conditions, to give them a feeling of how the cars accelerated. Shortly afterwards showrooms were supplied with demo cars, so people could try before they would buy. Nobody was forced to buy anything before being able to experience them first hand.
Now that people are putting the cars and claims underneath a microscope, there is the ability to pick apart the offerings.
If this keeps up, Tesla will simply change from being a open communication company, to one where little is disclosed. Not sure if this is really what anyone wants.
I do remember one person who hooked up his car to a dyno to get some first hand numbers. The Tesla promptly broke the dyno by snapping the machines drive belt. That dyno was supposed to be capable of measuring 1,000 lbs of torque, but evidently not strong enough to measure Tesla Torque.
I'm good with the upgrade offer, but I'd like to point out that we're at least a month into the 6 month window and we still have no upgrades provided and no timetable for when they might be available. I'm reasonably confident that if they aren't available in 6 months that Tesla will extend the window, but it would be nice to have some clarity about when they actually will have the ability to do the upgrades.
I used to argue this exact position in the massive other thread. The problem with that is that after the ludicrous upgrade, Tesla now claims that the motors are 259+503 or 762hp. They no longer advertise combined horsepower, but if applying more current raises the hp rating they are by definition rating the system instead of the individual motors. Most likely, either motor is capable of producing the rated HP, but the car for whatever reason is not capable of delivering that rated HP through both motors simultaneously. This is, obviously, just speculation on my part.
That is more or less where I am. I have become convinced that it was misleading advertising. I don't know if it rises to the level of false advertising in a legal sense or not and I don't care. I don't ever intend to sue, but I am disappointed that they were either unclear or misleading and haven't really ever addressed the issue.
SDRick
Active Member
Agreed:
Yes, the "motor hp rating" argument holds less water now that ludicrous claims 762 with the same motors.
My thoughts as well. It is time for some transparency from Tesla. Either explain their method of HP rating or eliminate the rating altogether and just advertise actual performance.
Krugerrand
Meow
I'm pretty sure I've read on the forum of people already getting on the upgrade list at their local SC, so not sure what you're waiting for if you're interested in getting the upgrade. Will they extend the window so that it's 6 months from the very first upgrade install? Or is it just 6 months from the announcement? Don't know and really doesn't matter because a prudent person would simply get their name on the list now to make sure they're in the most obvious 6 month window. Bases covered and no clarity needed.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
It's good to hold Tesla's feet to the fire but I really wish people wouldn't go overboard and then resort to name calling when people disagree. Using words like "illegal" and "intentionally false" completely misses the point. None of us would be driving these cars if it wasn't for grandiose and excessively ambitious thinking. That type of attitude leads to exaggeration. It's reaching for the stars (or at least Mars). It's no surprise that Elon Musk loves this false ad:
Elon Musk Loves This Tesla Ad, Even Though It's Fake
"Musk, the company’s founder and chief product architect, was so impressed with the unsolicited work that he tweeted a link to the YouTube video and said he would likely hire the creative firm for future projects."
That tells it all. He loves 'false' advertising. Elon Musk, and those like him running Tesla, say all sorts of crazy stuff about this car but their intent, in my opinion, is never to deceive. Their brains are running like a kid in the candy store but without those brains we'd all be driving our Leafs that go nowhere, or our hybrids or ICE. It's unfortunate since the product is so great as is, it doesn't need to be exaggerated. The fact is Tesla is full of hype, and they need to change that, but the bottom line is that they have created a product that is extremely exceptional and a complete game changer. Unfortunately, you have to take the good with the bad in this world. That's not to say to give them a pass on this issue, and other issues, but please put it in its proper perspective rather than seeking to sue them into oblivion, or repeatedly pounding them into the pavement. It gets so tiresome.
Call me a "fan boy". I couldn't care less. Stick and stones.
Elon Musk Loves This Tesla Ad, Even Though It's Fake
"Musk, the company’s founder and chief product architect, was so impressed with the unsolicited work that he tweeted a link to the YouTube video and said he would likely hire the creative firm for future projects."
That tells it all. He loves 'false' advertising. Elon Musk, and those like him running Tesla, say all sorts of crazy stuff about this car but their intent, in my opinion, is never to deceive. Their brains are running like a kid in the candy store but without those brains we'd all be driving our Leafs that go nowhere, or our hybrids or ICE. It's unfortunate since the product is so great as is, it doesn't need to be exaggerated. The fact is Tesla is full of hype, and they need to change that, but the bottom line is that they have created a product that is extremely exceptional and a complete game changer. Unfortunately, you have to take the good with the bad in this world. That's not to say to give them a pass on this issue, and other issues, but please put it in its proper perspective rather than seeking to sue them into oblivion, or repeatedly pounding them into the pavement. It gets so tiresome.
Call me a "fan boy". I couldn't care less. Stick and stones.
Some have lists, some say they have no lists, and some say they dont have any info at all... Communications is really improving in Tesla-land
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-Up-to-691HP?p=1021208&viewfull=1#post1021208
Danish and Norwegian sites at least showed 700 hp without any "motor power"....
No list at my service center. I did ask them to install it when my car was in for another service appointment a couple weeks after the announcement and they had to tell me they weren't ready. He had made some sort note and I asked him if my position on the list was based on when I asked for it (the day of the announcement) or based on the day of our conversation and he said he didn't really have a sorted list like I was thinking of. I have no doubt that I'll know when they've started installing them as soon or sooner than they do and will get myself an appointment ASAP once it looks like they are underway.
Its just another project where the communication is less than ideal.
I took delivery of my P85D in March of this year (in Germany). When I ordered it, I did so upgrading my existing order for a P85+, and had no chance to test drive it. It was advertised as having 700 PS on the website (I have a screen shot). When I got the car, I was handed documentation that mentioned 691hp (700 “PS”, the German unit; 1 PS is 0.98632 hp). It says 515 kW in the official legal papers for the car. I paid a lot of extra money because I wanted a car with that power. I didn’t get the car as it was advertised. I didn’t get the speed upgrade that was promised, and it didn’t get an upgrade with the autopilot stuff.
The car is still pretty great, but I’ve learned that it’s a bad idea to trust Tesla’s claims. I find that highly annoying, and I frankly don’t understand why they’re doing this. It just seems completely unnecessary to piss off customers that buy the most expensive car they have to offer.
The car is still pretty great, but I’ve learned that it’s a bad idea to trust Tesla’s claims. I find that highly annoying, and I frankly don’t understand why they’re doing this. It just seems completely unnecessary to piss off customers that buy the most expensive car they have to offer.
I have a 2014 P85D with every possible option except for the rear facing seats.....i'm not sure why any owner would expect a free upgrade from Tesla. I think he went over and above with making the option to upgrade available to previous owners with a cost a tad cheaper than when buying brand new. We tend to over think this whole notion about Tesla owning previous owners this BIG apology for buying a car and a few months later coming out with an upgrade (a model year newer btwn) . Take a look at other high end brands out there, it happens all the time "without the option of being able to upgrade" aside from trading in and getting hammered by trade diff.
so in Hindsight, no i do not feel Tesla should give P85D owners free Ludicrous upgrade. He gave us the ability to upgrade, thats more than enough
hope this helps.......whew!
Huh? How was I fooling myself if I knew what the battery could deliver and it was sufficient to match the claims? I could see me fooling myself if it were the other way around, but that isn't the case. Tesla claimed 691 HP, the batteries can output enough power for this to work.... I'm not sure where I'm the fool here?
Well, I can't quite agree to disagree when your side of the argument makes no sense... lol. That analogy doesn't really work either since I would consider the "terrain" to be the dyno and real world results and the "map" to be Tesla's advertising. Unfortunately in that case I had no terrain until I tested the car myself after already having relied on the map for purchase.... *head spin*
On the day of the announcement, I exchanged emails with my service center asking to be put in line for the upgrade immediately. I have heard nothing back.
To be clear, I have confidence in the quality of work and the timeliness of response from my service center (based on prior experience with both vehicles). As such, if they haven't contacted me yet about scheduling the upgrade then it's likely that corporate is the bottleneck.
I have a 2014 P85D with every possible option except for the rear facing seats.....i'm not sure why any owner would expect a free upgrade from Tesla. I think he went over and above with making the option to upgrade available to previous owners with a cost a tad cheaper than when buying brand new. We tend to over think this whole notion about Tesla owning previous owners this BIG apology for buying a car and a few months later coming out with an upgrade (a model year newer btwn) . Take a look at other high end brands out there, it happens all the time "without the option of being able to upgrade" aside from trading in and getting hammered by trade diff.
so in Hindsight, no i do not feel Tesla should give P85D owners free Ludicrous upgrade. He gave us the ability to upgrade, thats more than enough
I think you missed the part where the 2014 P85D doesn't actually meet the specs advertised when we bought them. Has nothing to do with missing out on a new feature that came out later. The feature that came out (Ludicrous mode) actually brings the car closer to the originally advertised specs.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
WK,
If you were/are not aware of the discharge data owners have collected from their cars using available data collection interfaces then I have severely over estimated your capabilities. If indeed I have, then I understand why my points are lost on you, apologize for using them and will try to generate points that speak better to your frame of reference.
To keep your head from spinning any more, I simply thought you were capable of knowing better and I was mistaken.
If you were/are not aware of the discharge data owners have collected from their cars using available data collection interfaces then I have severely over estimated your capabilities. If indeed I have, then I understand why my points are lost on you, apologize for using them and will try to generate points that speak better to your frame of reference.
To keep your head from spinning any more, I simply thought you were capable of knowing better and I was mistaken.
I'm not sure we're on the same page. I've been referring to knowledge available at the time I placed my order. Obviously today we know what the API says and other such testing, but we didn't in October '14. I'm guessing this is the source of confusion?
At that time we didn't have data from any P85D because it just didn't exist yet. I had, however, successfully discharged a pair of Tesla battery modules at about 6C at the time, though, which by itself would have worked out to numbers near whats needed for 691 HP for a whole pack worth.
What am I missing? Was there more information available in 10/2014 than I'm aware?
The battery can deliver 525KW but it turns out Tesla couldn't do it with the current contactors or fuse. So they'll replace those and we'll have the cars we were sold (those of use who bought them before Tesla removed the 691 hp rating) except that we'll pay extra for it because they couldn't fix it with software after all.
Once Tesla announced L and that existing P85D owners could upgrade, a bunch of naysayers switched sides deciding that was the final bit of proof they needed.
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This was another factor causing some to switch sides on this issue as several were standing by their assertion that Tesla was only advertising what the motor were capable of even if they didn't actually produce the advertised power. So if that were the case, then why did they now raise the individual ratings of each motor by a lot when the motors are exactly the same.
BTW, a 5000 lb car needs about 750 hp to make the 1/4 mile in 10.9 seconds, so if that spec holds true, the PDL will make a true 750+ hp at the motor shafts.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
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