I thought balancing only happened with a range charge, and if you are always 70-90% the out of balance cells will get worse. Consistent with both RC experience, and time to range charge when not performed once a month, or so. The last 5 miles can take 45 minutes. I am always moving minutes after range charge, but do it a bit less than monthly. 246/253, after 3.6 years, 43k mi.
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Who wants in on a class action lawsuit? ;-)
- Thread starter Kihi.lind
- Start date
On the S&X balancing is said to be triggered at ~93%, and will then continue even if you stop charging. I don't know that anyone has shared when balancing starts on the Model 3.
ACA Man
Member
I too did talk to Tesla people a few times and the OP is correct re they have 2 different stories.
One said to charge between 20-80% and another said to discharge as close to 0 as possible then charge all the way to 100% a few times.
One said to charge between 20-80% and another said to discharge as close to 0 as possible then charge all the way to 100% a few times.
"Tesla people"? If that's anyone besides an engineer in Fremont actually working in batteries, you can disregard what they say. There have been so many stories from the showroom floor!
I wrote
I wrote a letter to the (at the time) VP who ran customer service. I got a call from a guy in Fremont who said he was a senior battery engineer (to be honest, I didn't run a background check on him so he might have been a receptionist). He gave me the routines I should use, which I did, and that ran counter to the routines in the manual. After that didn't work, another "battery engineer" called me, though this one told me he was in SoCal, and told me something else entirely. Clearly, Tesla should be getting their battery maintenance suggestions from this forum as should I.
Those do sound like legit sources, and are, in fact, from "an engineer in Fremont actually working in batteries".
Note, I didn't doubt what you wrote, nor claim what they said was dismissable if they were engineers. When it comes to what you hear at the showroom, yeah, honestly, the forums are a better source of info... by far.
ACA Man
Member
By people, I meant their engineers which, as far as I am concerned, does not really mean anything.
I was a Power Distribution Engineer with Boeing & Lockheed and from my conversations with them, it seemed they both read from a script without providing any data to back up their claims.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
It sounds like they were checking to see if your battery was out of balance & asking you to perform specific actions that would get it back into balance. (A clue is you say 'after that didn't work'. They were trying to see if the miles were still there by having you balance the battery.)
Balancing the battery is not something to be done daily. The manual instructions are correct.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I do a drive by every once in a while
-- usually when someone tags me in a post and I check to see what it's about. And then I read a few posts ...I think people are talking past each other or not understanding what is being told to them. This is not "being "told something else entirely". These are valid answers for accomplishing two completely different things. You would get entirely different instructions for making beef stew versus baking a cake because they are different things.
The 20%-80% recommendation is what to do for your constantly daily habitual process to achieve the least physical damage and longest possible life of the batteries.
The process of running it low and then charging it back up to really full is the procedure you can do every once in a while for addressing some estimation algorithm and balancing issues to get more accurate readings.
Those are two different purposes and both are good recommendations for different uses.
ACA Man
Member
Correct.
In reality, according to what I was told, Tesla never did give a detailed statement such as yours.
I have a S75 that has never been cycled 100%-10%-100% in its life. Mostly in the 80%-60% range. I’m pretty sure the computer doesn’t have a good picture of the state of charge at this point. Routinely after I unplug, I can drive 3-4 miles before the miles starts rolling down. Rarely it will jump up a couple. This doesn’t bother me . However, if I lost 20% of range all of a sudden, I would check for a bad module.
I've got a 75D with 51k miles in 2 years. My rated range has dropped to 207 mi at 90%. That's a drop of 11.1% in 2 years. I've taken it to the service center and have gotten the runaround basically -- theyve assured me its based on my driving habits (false), temperature (false), and how 5-10% loss per year is "normal" (presumably also false). They wouldn't even commit to a battery degradation level that would be abnormal at any time point-- not 10,20,30%, etc. I'd appreciate hearing anyone else's experience because this has been very frustrating.
scole04
Member
My Jan 2013 s60 is at 173 @ 90% and 193ish @100% with 101k miles. Tesla is going to have to allow for battery replacements/upgrades at some point as our top and bottom of the pack degrades.
ACA Man
Member
My understanding is that current rises dramatically as voltage falls. As current rises so does excess heat and degradation.
In any application where the POWER is regulated this is true. As voltage drops, current will be increased to keep power the same.
In the case of the our cars, WOT produces the max current which is why we have more power at higher SOCs.
But you're quote of my comment has nothing to do with that. I'm talking about storage SOC. It's perfectly safe to store a lithium ion cell that is empty as long as it's not in an active circuit that could expose it to reverse polarity. So you don't want to store your Tesla at really low SOC but discharging it to 5% before you start charging it won't hurt it.
As others have have pointed out charge discharge range does make a difference. Using SOC range of 25% to 75% which is basically 1/2 of a cycle is worse for the battery than using 37.5% to 62.5% twice. Same amount of cycling but easier on the anode.
But it's not any worse to go from 55% down to 5% than it is go from 75% down 25%.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I'm not far off that with my Dec '16 S75. Last I checked about 228 miles at 100%, representing 8.5% loss at 65k miles.
I haven't pushed the issue but fully expect the same response you're getting. My tactic at this point is basically to keep driving the crap out of it and hope a module fails at some point necessitating replacement/rebuild.
I have a Classic 2013 MS60 with 80k miles. I have experienced over 60 parts replaced including major items like suspension, drive unit, and yes the HV Battery. Putting all those issues aside including my settlement I’ve learned that arguing a case about mileage will get you no where expect a lot of Tesla Fan Boys calling you names.
Learn from the Leaf Class Action, keep the argument around battery capacity.
We know from tear downs that Tesla mislead consumers about their usable battery capacity. Tesla knows this and has now changed going forward how they brand their models beginning with the M3 and M3 Long Range and now with the MS and MX, they are no longer a 75 and 100.
Tesla has just replaced my HV Battery and for the very first charge I asked them to fully charge it before picking it up. I wanted to to see a Rated Range Displayed of 208mi not expecting to be able to be able to go that distance within “real world” conditions, but because it would mathematically determine the battery capacity.
If 100% SOC yields 208mi Rated (300Wh/mi) then the 60kWh is supposed to actually be a 62.4kWh Capacity. However based on tear downs by Tesla Hackaer Jason Hughes Tesla’s hacked Battery Management System exposes the real usable capacity of its battery packs
we know this not to be the case. At the least a 100% SOC should project 200mi Rated at minimum.
I found your post because I am contemplating making another claim, this time for fraud and breach of contract. The battery warranty expresses that if replaced the capacity is to be replaced with no less than originally provided. Needless to say my battery replacement at 100 SOC didn’t even display 200mi Rated.
Yes I’d like further range. The batteries have evolved to be lighter, larger, and more efficient and I offered to pay the difference for an upgrade and not only has Tesla said NO they gave me a lesser than original “battery capacity”. The bottom line is technically they can, they have in the past, but they won’t now.
If you have an attorney let me know how to contact them, if you don’t, let me know how to contact you and I’ll have my attorney reach out.
Learn from the Leaf Class Action, keep the argument around battery capacity.
We know from tear downs that Tesla mislead consumers about their usable battery capacity. Tesla knows this and has now changed going forward how they brand their models beginning with the M3 and M3 Long Range and now with the MS and MX, they are no longer a 75 and 100.
Tesla has just replaced my HV Battery and for the very first charge I asked them to fully charge it before picking it up. I wanted to to see a Rated Range Displayed of 208mi not expecting to be able to be able to go that distance within “real world” conditions, but because it would mathematically determine the battery capacity.
If 100% SOC yields 208mi Rated (300Wh/mi) then the 60kWh is supposed to actually be a 62.4kWh Capacity. However based on tear downs by Tesla Hackaer Jason Hughes Tesla’s hacked Battery Management System exposes the real usable capacity of its battery packs
we know this not to be the case. At the least a 100% SOC should project 200mi Rated at minimum.
I found your post because I am contemplating making another claim, this time for fraud and breach of contract. The battery warranty expresses that if replaced the capacity is to be replaced with no less than originally provided. Needless to say my battery replacement at 100 SOC didn’t even display 200mi Rated.
Yes I’d like further range. The batteries have evolved to be lighter, larger, and more efficient and I offered to pay the difference for an upgrade and not only has Tesla said NO they gave me a lesser than original “battery capacity”. The bottom line is technically they can, they have in the past, but they won’t now.
If you have an attorney let me know how to contact them, if you don’t, let me know how to contact you and I’ll have my attorney reach out.
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