Why Tesla doesn't make a CCS adapter like Chademo?

[Don85D]

In the colder regions of Canada this infrastructure of 120 VAC 15amp receptacles at every parking location already exists. They were intended for block heats so that cars could be restarted so it is reasonable to expect the same level of connection when EVs become dominant and are parked for long periods.

 

[artsci]

I think with the constant expansion of the Tesla supercharger network the need is falling not rising. Perhaps I'm an example. I bought a CHAdeMO a few years ago. I've had to use it twice, and that was in the first year. With the SC network expansion, it's now a rather ungainly dust collector.

 

[gregd]

I get the slow charging at hotels overnight which is great if you get a spot overnight but if you check in late and all the chargers are taken, it really leaves you with a dilemma in the morning when the overnight cars are gone. Do you sit there and charge or do you partially charge and hope to make it to a fast charger somewhere else and compete with daytime travelers using them. As more EVs hit the road and stay at hotels, think how many more customers you can accommodate and help get on their way with a faster charger.

But what if EVERY parking spot at the hotel had a 120v / 20amp plug? As noted by @Don85D, this sort of infrastructure already exists in parts of the world, so it's a known and proven technology. The key is saturation. If you knew a plug would always be available, the morning panic should mostly be solved. 8 hours of L1 charging should be good for 30-40 miles, enough to get to the SC infrastructure (or whatever your distance charging solution is) even if you arrived on empty.

Yes, I agree they do need a few high speed chargers (DCFC) for those who need a local quick charge, or to top off after a short night. Maybe a few L2 spots for the red-eye set. But hopefully they are the exceptions.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Back to the original question. The EV car market has more than shifted already to the clueless mass market buyer. Adapters are a kludge, a stop gap measure only. The Model 3 (and by extension, the S and X) need to have two charge ports, the other supporting CCS. If Tesla doesn't do this, they will be behind the times.

 

[renim]

EV Sales: World All-Time Top 5 (Until March '17)

Of the world's top 5 EVs/PHEVs,
no1 is Chademo,
no2 is Tesla SC & Chademo optional
no3 is no CCS yet, but probably in future some time
no4 is Chademo
no5 is no Chademo yet, but probably in future some time

thats the maths, it may not represent internet Meme

CCS represents the alliance of the (mostly) unwilling, which is most of the car industry.
Chademo is alliance of the (mostly) willing
Tesla SC is dedicated
China GBT, honestly is the dominant standard already. Tesla, Nissan, BMW will all abide by China's quota requirements and to get sufficient volume, they will all sell GBT.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The cadre of folks (over the many years now) calling for the death of the LEADING worldwide charging standard is a bit comical at this point. At least the arguments are largely the same.

It's pretty obvious to me what the next decade will have in North America... up to 100-400 amp charge stations that have CHAdeMO and SAE CCS-Combo 1 plugs, just like a gasoline pump might have diesel and 87 octane gasoline.

The private network of Tesla isn't likely to adopt either of the other two standards, much to the chagrin of some Tesla owners here. But, I'm reasonably confident that Tesla plugs will show up on public charge stations as a third plug, along side CHAdeMO and the relevant regional standard like SAE CCS-Combo 1.

In Europe, CHAdeMO is still far in the lead with the most chargers and the most cars capable of using those chargers (as it is in the North America, too), again seemingly to the chagrin of the vocal CCS supporters here and on other internet sites.

I believe the dynamic through 2030 will be:

1) Public 100-400 amp charge stations with the worldwide public standard (CHAdeMO) with the applicable regional standards:
a. SAE CCS-Combo 1 in North America
b. Mennekes CCS-Combo 2 in Europe
c. Regional AC fast charging, like Chameleon in Europe

2) Private networks like Tesla Supercharger in the current model, but also available at public charge stations

3) Trucks / buses with a dedicated 1MW+ quasi-private standards

4) Slow AC charging remaining J1772 / Type 1 at 6-80 amps for overnight

5) Countries with ubiquitous three phase power will obviously favor Mennekes Type 2

6) China will favor their own system...

7) the rest of the world will have some combination of the above

 

[TonyWilliams]

I specifically didn't put "wireless" or inductive charging into the above list because there are so many issues with it (weight, bulk of hardware on car, cost, loss of efficiency, etc).

But, I do think it will play a role in professional trucking fleets:

"This (30kW wireless demonstration) opens the door to any existing EVs with CHAdeMO inlets to be made compatible with their inductive charging system, allowing use in commercial applications such as industrial vehicles, delivery vans and light trucks, and eventually taxis and buses, without having to wait for the long process of standardising the vehicle interface for WPT technology that is under way."

 

[cwerdna]

EV Sales: World All-Time Top 5 (Until March '17)

Of the world's top 5 EVs/PHEVs,
no1 is Chademo,
no2 is Tesla SC & Chademo optional
no3 is no CCS yet, but probably in future some time
no4 is Chademo
no5 is no Chademo yet, but probably in future some time


View attachment 228786

thats the maths, it may not represent internet Meme

CCS represents the alliance of the (mostly) unwilling, which is most of the car industry.
Chademo is alliance of the (mostly) willing
Tesla SC is dedicated
China GBT, honestly is the dominant standard already. Tesla, Nissan, BMW will all abide by China's quota requirements and to get sufficient volume, they will all sell GBT.

For #3, it's unknown why GM decided not to bother w/DC FC on the gen 2 Volt. I could understand why on the gen 1, given the standard wasn't done when it was designed, but for gen 2, nada?

As for #5 JDM-Prius Prime has either CHAdeMO standard or optional, I'm not 100% sure which. Unfortunately, the version doesn't have it at all.

 

[Saghost]

For #3, it's unknown why GM decided not to bother w/DC FC on the gen 2 Volt. I could understand why on the gen 1, given the standard wasn't done when it was designed, but for gen 2, nada?

As for #5 JDM-Prius Prime has either CHAdeMO standard or optional, I'm not 100% sure which. Unfortunately, the version doesn't have it at all.

I think the only reason any PHEV has DCFC is the Japanese market, where DC chargers are sometimes the only ones available, and a lot of folks may be expecting to use CHAdeMO adapters to power homes in an outage.

That's also why a couple fuel cell cars without plug chargeable batteries have a CHAdeMO outlet.

 

[scaesare]

But what if EVERY parking spot at the hotel had a 120v / 20amp plug? As noted by @Don85D, this sort of infrastructure already exists in parts of the world, so it's a known and proven technology. The key is saturation. If you knew a plug would always be available, the morning panic should mostly be solved. 8 hours of L1 charging should be good for 30-40 miles, enough to get to the SC infrastructure (or whatever your distance charging solution is) even if you arrived on empty.

Yes, I agree they do need a few high speed chargers (DCFC) for those who need a local quick charge, or to top off after a short night. Maybe a few L2 spots for the red-eye set. But hopefully they are the exceptions.

I've stayed at a number of hotels where 120 / 15 or 20a was all thy had. The 3-5 MPH gain overnight really isn't enough for many travel scenarios. It's pretty easy to need more than 30-50 miles of range for activity during the day especially if you have a family. Day trips, couple of runs to store/restaurants/activities, etc... and you can soak up your overnight mileage gains and then some.

If you don't have a supercharger reasonably near you on your entry/exit route at that destination, it gets dicey. I've managed the situation a number of times, but only with careful planning and no unexpected ssituations arising.

L3 is OK for airports or train stations maybe. But destination locations really need L2.

 

[Az_Rael]

I think with the constant expansion of the Tesla supercharger network the need is falling not rising. Perhaps I'm an example. I bought a CHAdeMO a few years ago. I've had to use it twice, and that was in the first year. With the SC network expansion, it's now a rather ungainly dust collector.

Depends on what the network in your area looks like. I have had to use my Chademo this winter even in supercharger filled Southern California. The network wasn't where I needed it for a long day of what we call "local" driving that required a top up before heading back over a mountain pass to home.

Granted, with the new pins shown on the supercharger map, that will fill in the hole near me, so whenever they finish that build out, mine won't be needed either.

 

[TexasEV]

L3 is OK for airports or train stations maybe. But destination locations really need L2.

I think you mean level 1 which is 120V. Level 3 is fast DC.

 

[Jeeps17]

But what if EVERY parking spot at the hotel had a 120v / 20amp plug? As noted by @Don85D, this sort of infrastructure already exists in parts of the world, so it's a known and proven technology. The key is saturation. If you knew a plug would always be available, the morning panic should mostly be solved. 8 hours of L1 charging should be good for 30-40 miles, enough to get to the SC infrastructure (or whatever your distance charging solution is) even if you arrived on empty.

Another issue with that scenario for regions with cold winters is that Tesla's BMS warms the battery pack prior to and during charging. If it is cold enough, the entire energy output from the typical 120V outlet will be consumed by this, leaving nothing (or virtually so) for actual charging.

This happened to me a few years ago, lesson learned the hard way.

 

[gregd]

Another issue with that scenario for regions with cold winters is that Tesla's BMS warms the battery pack prior to and during charging. If it is cold enough, the entire energy output from the typical 120V outlet will be consumed by this, leaving nothing (or virtually so) for actual charging.

This happened to me a few years ago, lesson learned the hard way.

Er, yeah. Good point. The 120v / 15a outlet is barely enough to just keep the pack temperature stable when it's really cold. That would be a useful only if a major SuperCharger were nearby. Further in off the main roads, you'd definitely need an L2 solution for overnight charging and maintenance.

Just curious (not being from such a climate), would a 6-20 outlet be acceptable? 240v / 20 amps. That would cost about the same as a 5-20 to install, but give more than 2x charging rate due to being more efficient. Are the legacy "block heater" applications compatible with the higher voltage?

 

[scaesare]

I think you mean level 1 which is 120V. Level 3 is fast DC.

Right you are... no idea why I got that backwards.

Thanks for pointing that out...

 

[NeverFollow]

In the colder regions of Canada this infrastructure of 120 VAC 15amp receptacles at every parking location already exists.

Who pay for the electricity? Is it included in the utilities, like for garbage where everyone pay what ever they really use it.

 

[Don85D]

The winter block heaters are on private property so the store owners would pay for electricity and that gets reflected in their overhead costs. I'm not sure what happens outside of the very cold months as these outlets may be disconnected.

My only point is that charging for everyone is possible when you are shopping or visiting. The reality is that EV owners all charge at home and install capacity to suit their daily needs. For us that included a small solar array so the our Model S runs on sunshine. We used the government tax rebate to make this happen.

When touring our charging costs are covered by free Superchargers, free hotel destination chargers and government charging stations where we are essentially buying the same electricity that we are selling to the grid.

 

[rhyd]

Some of you folks are saying that if you already have Chademo then no need to worry about CCS. That may be true in Asia, and possibly the US, but only for up to 50KW. In Europe we really want to get on with the job of moving to one standard, and in Europe it is CCS Combo2 for DC charging. For those who don't own a Chademo adapter, we'd rather wait until the combo2 adapter comes out.
Tesla already had the engineering foresight to give us the CCS type2 connector so at least we have the right connector for AC. That same connector can do 80KW at a CCS point (if the car allows it), and the Tesla proprietory extension (in Superchargers) stretches that to 120KW.

Model 3 in Europe will (Crystal Ball) have a CCS Combo2 port with the extra 2 pins, so it will be completely backwards compatible with all existing type2 AC and type 2 based Tesla superchargers but also allow the use of the European standard for DC charging.

We need to also recognise that 100KW CCS, and in the future 350KW DC chargepoints will never be able to use Chademo as a second connector, as those speeds. That standard apparently has no headroom past 50KW. As those new faster European standard charge points start to roll out, we will want a Combo2 adapter than can get us legacy Tesla drivers a full 120KW off any European standard CCS Combo2 station.

It is actually really simple, just a simple electronic relay that connects the 2 new extra pins, back to the 4 in the type2 connector that Tesla use for superchargers. Then the adaptor tells the car it is connected to a supercharger, and tells the chargepoint that a Combo2 vehcile is safely attached and handshakes the appropriate max current and voltage to limit the power to 120KW. Seriously that adapter should be considerably cheaper than the Chademo and far smaller.

 

[rhyd]

** Correction where I said 80KW it is actually 70KW DC; the current Tesla connectors in Europe can do that with no extra hardware needed, should just be a simple firmware update if the Tesla's don't already support "Type2 DC-Mid". For Combo2 a very simple adapter is required. It would almost be dumb adapter but for safety reasons the car might need to confirm that it is a Tesla being plugged in and not someone accidentally trying to ram 120KW into a car that isn't set up for 120KW over those pins. Very sketchy sketch attached.

 

[henderrj]

We need to also recognise that 100KW CCS, and in the future 350KW DC chargepoints will never be able to use Chademo as a second connector, as those speeds. That standard apparently has no headroom past 50KW.

Our other EV is a Kia Soul. It's Chademo Port is rated at a Max of 100KW. Don't have any chatimo charger stations that will do that, but it's supposed to work!