At these power levels 'simple' is rarely the correct term to use. There is a reason that even the cost-cut-to-the-bone CHAdeMO connectors straight out of China are still $500 on Alibaba. High voltages exposed to end users bring new complexity. High currents are sensitive to contact condition. It's a testament to Tesla's engineering team that they have managed to make Supercharging seem so trivial.
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@rhyd Two main problems with what you said:
- The CCS standard doesn't allow adapters.
- Current Teslas can't use the "mid-DC" because you couldn't plug the cable in since there isn't room for the extra 2 pins to clear the car. (Unless someone made a "mid-DC" CCS charger that didn't have the two extra pins, but that is highly unlikely.) And again adapters aren't allowed so you can't use an adapter to go from full CCS Combo2 to the Type2 port on the car.
For the 100th time... who cares if the standard doesn't allow adaptors.. Tesla will do whatever they want. As far as every CHAdeMo station is concerned, the adaptor IS the vehicle. There is no distinction at the interface. The adaptor emulates the car and the charger can't tell the difference.
edit: @MP3Mike do you really think Tesla plays by the "rules"?
edit: @MP3Mike do you really think Tesla plays by the "rules"?
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If they have to sign a license to buy connectors, or to legally implement the protocol they’ll have to play by the rules.
I don't believe this is the case. SAE J1772 as a standard should be available effectively license-free. There will be no connectors to buy - they'd just mold their own. You may have to pay to review the standard, but paid licensing doesn't apply like it does for Apple Lightning cables, or CHAdeMO connectors.
J1772A: SAE Electric Vehicle and Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle Conductive Charge Coupler - SAE International
I think part of the problem with these "standards" is that their connectors are a joke. Look at CHADeMo, a complete abortion of design. It's gigantic, unwieldy and just generally a pain the use. CCS connectors are just as bad, if not worse due to the fact that they are oddly shaped, and pretty much just as large.
It would be much easier to standardize on a connector that had a nice shape and size... but why would we want to and should we standardize on a retarded physical design? If it happens, it happens, but until then, I'd rather wait for someone to pull their heads out of their asses and consider not making a completely idiotic, gigantic, unwieldy connector for absolutely zero reason.
It would be much easier to standardize on a connector that had a nice shape and size... but why would we want to and should we standardize on a retarded physical design? If it happens, it happens, but until then, I'd rather wait for someone to pull their heads out of their asses and consider not making a completely idiotic, gigantic, unwieldy connector for absolutely zero reason.
Tesla most definitely plays by the rules of CharIN, they are a full member. Anyway Tesla does not want the liability associated with high power uncertified connections. They Will Not do that. When CharIN permits to they might. They might make a native connector on board like they already do for China.
While I partially agree that both connectors are bad, I definitely disagree with this. CCS is better than CHAdeMo for a very simple reason. You would have to have a separate port for AC charging, and ALSO a huge ugly CHAdeMo port for DC charging. With CCS, you just have the one large port that handles both, so it's certainly an improvement there.
The most annoying thing is that the group decided to maintain compatibility with the J1772 socket. They should have abandoned the old socket.
Could you explain? The car needs some kind of AC charging port on it. What else should they have used? J1772 is widely deployed in North America.
jelloslug
Active Member
Why? Look at the Tesla connector. It handles AC and DC, it's compact, easy to use, pretty robust as far as I can tell... it's obviously possible to make a decent connector that handles everything, but CCS and CHADeMo failed completely and utterly in that department. They should not be a standard. I'm not saying the Telsa connector should be the standard (it would be nice, though), but whatever the standard is, it should follow basic design principals and not be a Frankenstein mess of garbage that the CCS and CHADeMo connectors are.
There's two things at work here that result in huge connectors. First, electrical standards are very conservative by design. See that TR receptacles are now required when they will prevent less than dozen deaths a year. Other dangerous items are less regulated than this (such as cars, ladders, and firearms). So electrical standards are conservative to begin with.
Tamper-resistant electrical receptacles
Second: a single charging-related serious injury or death would absolutely destroy the EV market. The charging needs to be safer than handling gasoline by several orders of magnitude, or else the media will make scare pieces out of it. People underestimate the danger of gasoline because it's familiar, even though it's 10k injuries/year in the US alone. Even if we adjusted down to the 1% that electric cars of the fleet, can you imagine the headlines if there were 100 charging injuries a year?
Gas Tanks & Gasoline
Tamper-resistant electrical receptacles
Second: a single charging-related serious injury or death would absolutely destroy the EV market. The charging needs to be safer than handling gasoline by several orders of magnitude, or else the media will make scare pieces out of it. People underestimate the danger of gasoline because it's familiar, even though it's 10k injuries/year in the US alone. Even if we adjusted down to the 1% that electric cars of the fleet, can you imagine the headlines if there were 100 charging injuries a year?
Gas Tanks & Gasoline
xkcd: Standards
This is about the only reason or "advantage" that CCS fans cite. It's not like there's a shortage of space on cars for inlets.
CHAdeMO is a world standard. Unfortunately, there hasn't been standardization on inlets for AC charging, there are at least 3 flavors in the world: J1772, Mennekes Type 2 and whatever China uses. And for DC FC, for Combo/CCS, there are 2 flavors: SAE Combo aka Combo1 (for North America) and Combo2 (for Europe).
Worldwide, for DC FCing, there are currently at least 6 different connectors: CHAdeMO, Combo1, Combo2, GB/T, Tesla Supercharger for North America, Tesla Supercharger for Europe.
Uh huh, sure, except for the multiple threads about how the handles have to keep getting replaced repeatedly for wear causing overheating and reduced charge rates. The connector may be underdesigned for the power they are trying to use, similar to their trying to do too much with 40A through the UMC.
You've got a pretty weird way of looking at that, as if they are all "different" standards. That's the point of why Type 1 AC is a subset of CCS Type 1, and Type 2 is a subset of CCS Type 2. That's where the simplicity is.
I'm not saying the Tesla connector couldn't be improved; of course it can. But it obviously shows it CAN be done. Even if you doubled the size of the Tesla connector, it would still be much, much smaller and less unwieldy than the CHADeMo or CCS adapter and I think we can both agree that doubling the size of the Tesla connector would resolve every issue we've run into so far and is probably a lot of overkill to resolve any remaining problems.
The CCS and CHADeMo designs are idiotic and should not become a standard. That's not to say they won't, I'm just saying they shouldn't.
EfficientWatts
Member
That may be our best shot (for trucks), but even then there are caveats.
J3068 - 3 Phase A/C Charging for North America
I've been watching this standard evolve, and while it will use the same inlet as the european version, at least for the A/C part the communication protocol is different due to the different voltages that the plug would have to support. So a hypothetical vehicle that used such a Type 2 inlet would need to support the European and SAE charging standards for A/C. (Thankfully it appears that DC would at least be the same, the European version). It would come down to scale vs component cost as a truck that is driven in Europe would never have to deal with the different 3 phase voltages in North America. (I don't know how much more it would take to add such support in terms of cost and weight).
Maybe a silver lining we can get is to have the same inlet but the actual support under the hood is dependent on region (which honestly would be good enough; maybe if you had to take something over have an option to enable the other flavors?)
(BTW the NA version will support single phase as well)
Of course CCS does not come nowhere near the 1.6 MW that would be required for 30 minute charging, so Tesla will have to go with their own standard to charge this fast; that Tesla connector I feel is probably not going to be the final one though. I'm not sure how regulations in Europe would impact this.
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