Winter Driving Experiences

[Doug_G]

You have to be very careful drawing any conclusions from a single anecdote. I'll give you an example from today, but be sure to read to the end!

So I drive to the bank today, and enter via the back road. It's horribly icy - an inch thick layer of glare ice, with gaping holes and ruts that go down to bare pavement. Temperature is -17C so any salt on the road isn't doing squat. It's also lightly snowing which really greases the ice. Holy crap, this is unsafe! I back the speed down to 20 kph. I'm carefully creeping along in a perfectly straight line, and suddenly and without warning the car is sideways! OMG I've never had a car do that before!!! What happened??? Wow! Luckily there's nothing oncoming, and I straighten out and continue to the bank at a snail's pace. Sounds bad for the Model S... but read the next paragraph...

So I go into the bank. I'm tell the bank teller, "be very careful if you leave by the back road, it's scary". The next teller looks over and says, "OMG my car went completely sideways earlier!!! I thought I was going to crash! You get a wheel into one of those potholes and your car just spins!!!" Yep, totally identical experience.

Nearly zero traction on three wheels, and the other wheel in an inch deep pothole on bare pavement, and that's exactly what your car is gonna do - spin. This had nothing whatsoever to do with the car, and everything to do with ridiculously horrible road conditions. (I swear road conditions in Ottawa the last two weeks have been among the worst ever!)

Suffice it to say I've been giving the car a good stress test...

- - - Updated - - -

How about stopping?

Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but in some ways, stopping on slippery winter roads can be more critical than starting. Model S is a pretty heavy car, and I'm wondering if any owners can comment on what happens when you hit the binders on snow/ice.

No complaints about braking. Or the stability control (except that it won't let me do a donut on purpose!)

 

[mknox]

Mknox, the stopping is controlled well on slippery roads, thus no controversy.

No complaints about braking. Or the stability control (except that it won't let me do a donut on purpose!)

Great news, guys. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[RichardC]

How about stopping?

Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but in some ways, stopping on slippery winter roads can be more critical than starting. Model S is a pretty heavy car, and I'm wondering if any owners can comment on what happens when you hit the binders on snow/ice.

Various road tests have confirmed that the brake system itself provides world class stopping power. Cold weather braking will depend almost entirely on the tires and road conditions. The Pirelli winter tires have been working well for me in Toronto so far. Good stopping power and no surprises.

 

[mknox]

Various road tests have confirmed that the brake system itself provides world class stopping power. Cold weather braking will depend almost entirely on the tires and road conditions. The Pirelli winter tires have been working well for me in Toronto so far. Good stopping power and no surprises.

That seems to be the consensus. I was thinking there would be a lot of inertia with such a heavy car, and while I knew the dry road braking performance was good, I was wondering about how well it handled less than perfect road conditions.

 

[Doug_G]

Perhaps a little more detail is in order. In my experience the car stops very well in slippery conditions, and more importantly remains stable and controllable. So far seems as good as any other car I have driven.

 

[Brian H]

CarlE and zax;
Until the web app comes out, try this workaround: set the car overnight to range charge, and dial down the amps allowed to approximately enough to finish by morning -- and then lower them a bit more, so it's still charging the last few kWh by then (the timing can be very approximate, as long as you're not in danger of draining the car every day). The battery will be warm and ready to go, full regen and power. For added pleasure, come out a few minutes early and crank the cabin heat up, then go back in for your last cuppa for the road.

The above, mutatis mutandis (with necessary changes as needed), can be done by using a 120V feed. Very few miles will be added, but the battery will be warm.

Note that the key to both is NOT having the battery get "FULL" until the last moments, if then. It mustn't be allowed to stop charging and "sag" back to a minimum SOC (and thus cool down).
___________
↑(Just ways of "forcing" the MS to stay on shore power feeding the battery until departure. )↑

 

[ChadS]

I haven't driven in snow yet, but I've done test panic stops in the rain, intentionally going over slippery painted parts of the road - and I've been very impressed. The car was completely in control and composed, and it was very easy to steer while slowing.

Maybe it's to be expected for this class of car, but it sure the heck beats the old hybrids and small diesels I used to drive.

 

[PatP]

For the benefit of all TMC members I went driving again in a (new!) snowstorm today. Probably the most difficult conditions I've been in with my Model S. See attached picture for some context. My tires are now Nokian's R (non studded).

Car was stable most of the time. Braking / stopping is good. Traction was also okay most of the time. Did the same "Promenade Street" hill test by stopping in the middle of it. Got very little traction, but car was able to climb very very slowly. Traction control is probably too agressive as mentioned by many others.

I then drove in semi unplowed street. When I completely stopped the car at intersections, it was sometimes a little bit difficult to move forward. I then decided to disable Traction Control (TC) and drove carefully - trying to adjust my accelerations very precisely. I'm trying to see if a "better winter" TC algorithm would help. It's difficult to tell without more tests, but I think that would make a difference.

Also, I now understand why I almost arrived with no battery left on my first Montreal-Quebec City trip. Snow storms are VERY VERY demanding in terms of energy.

Finally, I can now say affirmatively that it's a real pain that the car's adjustable suspension always go back to normal at 30 km/h. I had to constantly select high (and wait) to go across unplowed snow. I spoke to a friend of mine who who also has a Model S and he also reported that.

And the infamous "both pedals are pressed" warning is ANNOYING as hell. California: we sometimes have to drive with snowboots... They are large and it's possible we press both pedals for 1/10 of a second...

PatP

 

[kevincwelch]

Drove 40 miles today, RTrip to work, and used over 120 miles in range. Included maybe 30 min time in aprking lot on the phone and another 15 min getting inspection sticker.

40 kWh future owners should be paying close attention to this.

I'm wondering based on all this if Tesla's range calculator takes into account all these temperature variations and battery requirements.


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[dsm363]

For the benefit of all TMC members I went driving again in a (new!) snowstorm today. Probably the most difficult conditions I've been in with my Model S. See attached picture for some context. My tires are now Nokian's R (non studded).

PatP

Are you saying the Model S is adequate enough in harsh climates with proper tires and possible future TC updates from Tesla to recommend to others up there? How do the Nokian Rs compare to the Pirelli winter tires? Thanks.

 

[PatP]

Are you saying the Model S is adequate enough in harsh climates with proper tires and possible future TC updates from Tesla to recommend to others up there? How do the Nokian Rs compare to the Pirelli winter tires? Thanks.

I think the truth is that we're beta testing Model S in real winter conditions. So until we have more data (ex. true range in cold) and that we understand Tesla's point of view regarding updating / fixing the winter issues I still recommend to my friends to wait, especially for "non-early adopter" people.

In my case, Nokian's are way better. My understanding is the Pirelli's are performance winter tires so lots of trade-off.

 

[kevincwelch]

So until we have more data (ex. true range in cold) and that we understand Tesla's point of view regarding updating / fixing the winter issues I still recommend to my friends to wait, especially for "non-early adopter" people.

I agree with your sentiment here; I think the owners are doing the winter testing. Hopefully Tesla is paying close attention to these forums and the feedback given personally to them. I would like to think they are taking a few Model S cars as well as Model X vehicles out into the wild this winter and really doing some firm winter testing.

 

[PatP]

Drove 40 miles today, RTrip to work, and used over 120 miles in range. Included maybe 30 min time in aprking lot on the phone and another 15 min getting inspection sticker.
For the first 0 miles wH were 600 (!!), for the next 40 they were low enough to bring me to a 470's average for the 80 miles combined. BUT that does not include the energy/range lost while the car sat and I worked for 8-9 hours and then again for 2 hours.

That's similar to what I got while running errands in very cold weather.

 

[Doug_G]

That's similar to what I got while running errands in very cold weather.

Right. A bunch of short trips, allowing the pack to chill out in-between, is worst-case given how Tesla manages the pack temperature.

When you start up, the pack heater turns on. The idea is that it is better to waste some energy up front and heat the pack, because then the battery efficiency goes up much sooner. So you use a lot of energy at first, but as you continue driving you end up using much less energy overall. On a longer trip you would be ahead of the game.

Unfortunately if you only do short trips, and the pack cools down between those trips, the pack heater is always on and consumption looks horrible. On the bright side, if you operate the car this way you can't be going very far, so you're not at risk of running out of range. It just "looks bad".

 

[LazMan]

This is exactly the same as what happens to my Prius in cold weather. It has to use the engine to heat the battery. For short trips in cold weather I get the absolute worst mileage.

 

[Mayhemm]

Luckily I had left the HVAC settings in a somewhat appropriate state, because I couldn't adjust it.

Can you not adjust the HVAC settings via the steering wheel controls (fan speed and temperature anyway?)?

 

[dsm363]

Can you not adjust the HVAC settings via the steering wheel controls (fan speed and temperature anyway?)?

You can set one of the scroll wheels to control temperature on the steering wheel.

 

[pbrulott]

I'm wondering based on all this if Tesla's range calculator takes into account all these temperature variations and battery requirements.

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kcw, that's the most frustrating part. I'm going to repeat it again but cold winter test drives, proper instructions for cold driving/parking and real life range impact are looking an oversight/aftertought for Tesla. If not, that means TM knows about it, then, they were certainly not upfront with owners and, why is it that the range calculator doesn't go below 32F?
Either way is frustating and concerning for current and futur owners. While some thinks those reports are anecdoctal. Wait until we have thousands of testers out there. TM needs to step in and quick.

Is there a punch list and wish list for winter?

 

[Zapped]

It's horribly icy - an inch thick layer of glare ice, with gaping holes and ruts that go down to bare pavement. Temperature is -17C so any salt on the road isn't doing squat.

No sanding on your roads ?

 

[jerry33]

No sanding on your roads ?

Doesn't matter. The problem is that people spin their tires on the intersections, melt the ice, and the sand gets covered with ice. And at -17 C, it's too cold for the salt to do anything (other than act as a bit of sand).