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17.11.45 Automatic Emergency Braking

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I disagree. Tesla is now working against AP1 as the assumed baseline. They need to be very upfront when a feature is not there. There was no baseline when AP1 was getting the features initally.

The car I test drove when I ordered my tesla had AEB at 90 MPH. Tesla owes it to me to make it clear when a feature under AP2 has less capibilty than AP1. They have done this with every release note to this point.
 
To be fair, that's not nearly as slimy. Lane departure warning, side collision assist, and AEB in AP1 had limits too that were only called out in the manual but were not called out in the release notes that introduced the feature.

Car manufacturers nowadays still provide user manuals in hard copies. Software companies use put user manuals in soft copies, and they can update the files any time they want. No surprise!
 
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I disagree. Tesla is now working against AP1 as the assumed baseline. They need to be very upfront when a feature is not there. There was no baseline when AP1 was getting the features initally.

The car I test drove when I ordered my tesla had AEB at 90 MPH. Tesla owes it to me to make it clear when a feature under AP2 has less capibilty than AP1. They have done this with every release note to this point.

Tesla owes all AP2 owners an explanation, timeline, and refund (on the entire car) if the customer desires it. You are right that AP1 should be considered the baseline and any feature less than that needs to be disclosed as not fully operational. Why the hell would I need AEB at 28 MPH?
 
Did you test AEB at 90mph on that test drive? Doubt the subject of AEB even crossed your mind.

The whole point of AEB is you don't have to think about it - it just works and helps reduce injury or death. The automaker tests it so we don't have to. And yes it's sketchy to not make it clear that the speed is limited. That information wasn't described in any of the tweets, releases, articles, etc that discussed the update before or after it rolled out until consumer reports said something. Tesla talked in some detail about their update roadmap including AEB but I can't find an example of them clarifying the restricted functionality.

In fact they led you to think it was functioning at high speed by noting they were aiming for AP1 parity. That's misleading. Whether it was intentional or not remains to be seen. It's annoying that they will release tiny little details about functionality - like auto steer works at xx speed - but didn't feel it necessary to mention the restrictions for a critical safety update proven to save lives.
 
Did you test AEB at 90mph on that test drive? Doubt the subject of AEB even crossed your mind.

In a sense, that's fair. Didn't cross my mind, nor did I test it when I test drove it.

However, I did all my research on the car before we test drove it, AEB was one of the features we really liked about the car. Our previous car had been rear-ended 3 times in 5 years on the highway. My wife and I had discussed it, and I had looked into how it worked. She was really pumped that the car might help (not prevent) against accidents like we'd experienced.

They changed my order from AP1 to AP2 while in process with the promise they would do all the things AP1 did within a few weeks of getting the car. It's now been 150+ days, and they're pulling stuff like this.
 
In a sense, that's fair. Didn't cross my mind, nor did I test it when I test drove it.

However, I did all my research on the car before we test drove it, AEB was one of the features we really liked about the car. Our previous car had been rear-ended 3 times in 5 years on the highway. My wife and I had discussed it, and I had looked into how it worked. She was really pumped that the car might help (not prevent) against accidents like we'd experienced.

They changed my order from AP1 to AP2 while in process with the promise they would do all the things AP1 did within a few weeks of getting the car. It's now been 150+ days, and they're pulling stuff like this.

FWIW, forward collision warning is where most collision saves happen. AEB in Tesla vehicles is only designed to activate after a collision is guaranteed and acts to reduce the impact velocity.

Tesla still has one of the best FCW implementations even on AP2. The response time for identifying new cars around corners and cutting into your lane is second to none -- my previous Audi tested really well at the IIHS but in the real world it sucked at alerting to partially offset cars in my path of travel.


On another note: Elon continues at his TED talk to re-iterate his commitment to a vision based self driving system and even implied radar may be on its way out. Your slightly delayed safety features likely mean you are going to get these improved ADAS/autonomy features and you narrowly avoided a massive decline in AP1 resale value as AP2 becomes more and more functional.
 
On another note: Elon continues at his TED talk to re-iterate his commitment to a vision based self driving system and even implied radar may be on its way out. Your slightly delayed safety features likely mean you are going to get these improved ADAS/autonomy features and you narrowly avoided a massive decline in AP1 resale value as AP2 becomes more and more functional.

Not quite sure how this is going to play out. AP1 cars remain better than anything else in the industry, and will likely stay that way even after AP2 becomes markedly superior. If a customer is choosing between an AP1 and an AP2 car, obviously the AP2 is worth more. If they're choosing between a used/CPO Tesla and something else, it isn't as clear. I'm not sure value will take a huge hit, especially since eAP is (at least for the moment) so much more expensive to begin with.
 
To be fair, that's not nearly as slimy. Lane departure warning, side collision assist, and AEB in AP1 had limits too that were only called out in the manual but were not called out in the release notes that introduced the feature.

It really comes down to intention.

All of what you listed did have limitations that were called out in the manual, but not in the release notes. There wasn't anything slimy about it because it was expected limitations that are typical for these kinds of systems at the time of release. Where the release notes were kept brief, but had all the essential information.

I fail to see how leaving out the 28mph limitation wasn't done intentionally. Where they were purposely trying to avoid backlash about it not really being what people wanted. It wasn't just the release notes, but the media releases as well.

It's pretty bad when electrek.co doesn't have the complete picture.
 
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It really comes down to intention.

All of what you listed did have limitations that were called out in the manual, but not in the release notes. There wasn't anything slimy about it because it was expected limitations that are typical for these kinds of systems at the time of release. Where the release notes were kept brief, but had all the essential information.

I fail to see how leaving out the 28mph limitation wasn't done intentionally. Where they were purposely trying to avoid backlash about it not really being what people wanted. It wasn't just the release notes, but the media releases as well.

It's pretty bad when electrek.co doesn't have the complete picture.

I think with the pending Lawsuit and Consumer Reports calling them out on yet another promise not being delivered they thought they would get away with another half baked release and call it completed. If they wanted us to know about the 28mph limit they would have included it in the notes as they have with every AP update.. 25mph -->45mph -->50mph etc. I am sure this was intentionally left out to once again rush something to the market and hope people did not realize the limitation..
 
Not quite sure how this is going to play out. AP1 cars remain better than anything else in the industry, and will likely stay that way even after AP2 becomes markedly superior. If a customer is choosing between an AP1 and an AP2 car, obviously the AP2 is worth more. If they're choosing between a used/CPO Tesla and something else, it isn't as clear. I'm not sure value will take a huge hit, especially since eAP is (at least for the moment) so much more expensive to begin with.

The way I see it is there was a serious hit to consumer confidence of Tesla with AP1 owners. Where they saw the value of their car drop significantly with the release of AP2 cars, but it was premature by AT LEAST a year. I would also argue that the vast majority of the significance of AP2 was in the potential that Elon drew.

Now that hit in resale was always excepted. We knew a good chunk of money in our cars was we were getting something largely ahead of it's time. When you do that you pay through the nose for it. We knew we were going to get beat up a bit. I took advantage of the tax credit, no sales tax, and resale value guarantee to lessen the blow. Those are what helped me get into the car.

All Tesla had to do was not screw up. To not purposely do things that felt disingenuous.

The switch to AP2 felt premature, but understandable. I knew it was a tough thing to pull off so I was always going to give them a lot of breathing room to figure it out. I didn't rush out to upgrade, and instead waited to see what would become of it. The way they've handled it is disingenuous.

FSD felt disingenuous, and I list it among the top three things of 2016 that made me feel like an alien on this planet. To put it very simply it won't be what was promised, but it will be cool despite that. Just like AP1 was cool, but it's certainly not on ramp to off ramp.

This latest one is small potatoes in the big scheme of things, but indicative of a larger pattern. Of not giving the customer critical information they need. It's too early to tell what the customer retention will be once competitors hit the scene, but I worry that Tesla is going to lose a lot of customers. Customers that Tesla primed to leave through dishonestly, and broken promises.

As time goes on I see more and more broken customers on TMC. Customers that used to be really pro Tesla, and now they seem like a kid who got beat up by their best friend. I'm not one yet as I tend to ignore the noise, and let the car do the talking. It's pretty quiet, but I'm pretty sure it's telling to me to drive it so drive it I do. So the real question is when the game changer arrives?

Is it EAP with automatic lane changing - Maybe, but is that really worth the expense of AP2?
Is it some form of FSD even if really limited - Possibly
Is it the vertical take off and land electric plane - Starting to seem plausible especially if all I have to do is land at supercharger to charge.
 
This was a fascinating read through the entire thread.

I am waiting for m3 and can't wait for more and more software development news about ms and mx which I use as baseline for what m3 will do software wise. So I finally found this thread and came here to find out about whether aeb on ap2 really works as a full feature. It's sad to find out it doesn't, is limited to 28mph. That means forget about enhanced auto pilot, and fsd. Forget about high beam and wipers. Still waiting for full aeb feature and that implies development is far far behind on other functionality. Every day I'm hoping they are catching up but seems like they're far behind from what Elon promised (Fsd coast to coast in 2017).

Wrt to 28 miles limit, this was disingenuous. Ap was called out to work at lower Speeds only so why not aeb?! Someone should give Elon a heads up on being transparent. We'll respect him more for this not less because we believe he'll eventually get it right and still be ahead of competition.

To those complaining about not having ap that works well and aeb, etc. You forgot what it is like to have BMW or other cars with adas. I dare you to turn in your Tesla and go back to other brands as you come to realization that whatever you get is a gimmick and there definitely won't be any software updates coming every 2-6 weeks to improve / fix your car.

Thanks to all that posted about their experience with aeb and all the informative comments others provided.
 
Elon never promised that. He said that he hoped to be able to demo a LA to New York FSD by the end of the year. And he has recently restated that.

You sure about that?

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