Thanks for that. That answered what I was wondering. If that was not the case I was not going to install this update. Sounded like more of a pain than anything. The slowing down at intersections and cars bunching behind you, and then exact speed on non divided roads. Thanks ill pass. I might install it and then leave it disabled. I dont mind the computer gathering data so the system improves. But I also dont want to get rear ended or constantly having horns blown at me.
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2020.12.5.6: Traffic Light & Stop Sign Control
- Thread starter MarcG
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- Autopilot Tesla Inc.
That's true. However that mode was billed as requiring significant human oversight and control. To move away from that you are going to have to follow the law. Seems pretty simple to me.
AustinM3LR
Member
AustinM3LR
Member
I think this is right. Correct me if I'm wrong but this (Red light, stop sign stopping) is the first feature that only goes to FSD buyers and not the Enhanced Autopilot purchasers. I think we can all agree that eventual "no need to pay attention" FSD will always follow the posted speed limits. In those cases, I think it's best to think of our cars as one of those commercial trucks with the bumper sticker "This truck follows all speed limits and traffic laws". Maybe someone should come up with a similar robotaxi bumpersticker with that sort of warning
Then why build a car that goes over 85mph ? Thats the top speed in the USA. If they are so concerned, computer limit it to 85 except the Performance model in track mode. Seems like a lame excuse.
Honestly I think this should be released as beta under Autopilot instead of under Full Self Driving.
The system is still largely manual with stopping at all signs and lights even if the light is green and then requires user input to start again.
This sounds more like AI system training. If such wouldn’t you want the largest user base testing and training. In other words make it part of a larger roll out to even those that only have regular Autopilot.
When it can properly stop and start itself without user input make that portion FSD only and either leave the manual process with standard Autopilot, or just remove it when the system without manual input is ready for FSD.
The system is still largely manual with stopping at all signs and lights even if the light is green and then requires user input to start again.
This sounds more like AI system training. If such wouldn’t you want the largest user base testing and training. In other words make it part of a larger roll out to even those that only have regular Autopilot.
When it can properly stop and start itself without user input make that portion FSD only and either leave the manual process with standard Autopilot, or just remove it when the system without manual input is ready for FSD.
AustinM3LR
Member
That's a fair point. But realistically "human driven" cars have never been speed regulated like this and Tesla has to be able to compete. This is a much more difficult autonomy problem to solve than changing lanes on a highway. If a car runs a stop sign because of some weird bug (see @DirtyT3sla video demonstration for some scary examples) then there is a much higher risk of injury to the Tesla driver and others. With these types of situations where the driver is almost definitely going to have to intervene sometimes because of these early bugs, even a couple of mph over the limit could reduce the ability to react in time. This is a bold move by Tesla to put their reputation a risk to release something with such a high chance of *something* going wrong somewhere, it's wise not to compound that by the critics to be able to say "oh well they were speeding".
I know that this is an extremely touchy subject for a lot of people but the fact is we really are paying money to beta test a company's products. That's why the default of this feature is off. A lot of us have that "programmer" mentality and we LOVE testing this sort of thing and have a fairly good grasp of the risks and consider it a privilege to try out "buggy" software.
The argument could be made that Tesla promotes this as a feature and it's not fair for people to think this will work flawlessly but it's right there in the release notes and warnings when you enable these things. Like it or not, that's Tesla's chosen path to autonomy: put software out there and let it learn from real human drivers. That's not always gonna be a pretty/easy path. I'm ready to buckle up, pay closer attention than normal, and try it.
Leaving it disabled won't give the computer valid dynamic data.
The speed limitation is Tesla playing it safe while these new features are in testing. A stop sign / intersection is the last place you'd want a mishap.
Having FSD package features trickle down to AP / EAP would make it a less attractive purchase, so financially it would be a bad move. The other question is, can the AP only hardware handle the new features?
Having FSD package features trickle down to AP / EAP would make it a less attractive purchase, so financially it would be a bad move. The other question is, can the AP only hardware handle the new features?
The AP only hardware 2.5 currently handles speed changes (e.g. slows the car when going from 50 mph speed zone down to 30 mph zone) just fine using Autosteer. For all intents and purposes, the beta stop signs and traffic lights detection should not be under FSD as human intervention is required. If it's part of FSD, then it should be fully automated, not the cagy way it currently behaves in beta.
Current cars regardless of FSD purchased have the same hardware. This is why FSD can be purchased after the fact in the phone app.
The best way to improve the system would be to gather as much information as possible. Limiting to only FSD option purchased cars greatly slows that down.
FSD is (eventually) FULL self driving. The current work in progress is not (yet) that.
Use the Autopilot it EAP people to collect data and when the car can do it away take it away or leave it in crippled form.
People still want FSD More so than ESD so it’s not going to really hurt Tesla’s financials in the long run.
BrandonLive
MS LR (refresh) Blue/Black/21s/FSD
Right. If/when there’s an accident while someone is using this, they don’t want the investigation or press coverage saying that the system was programmed to drive above the speed limit through intersections. It also helps reduce the risk of any such accidents happening and causing major injury or death.
Another major factor is that ostensibly speed limits are designed to ensure safe travel, including a safe ability to stop in time for changing traffic lights or stop signs that are hidden until you’re close to the intersection. While often they’re set lower than is necessary for this, in some places they’re very important. Allowing the car to exceed these speeds could greatly increase the chance of an accident. Of course maps and “memory” of control device locations could help offset this (and potentially increase the safe maximum speed), we’re way too early for that both in terms of the tech and the law.
BrandonLive
MS LR (refresh) Blue/Black/21s/FSD
Most likely a very small % rollout and possible a specifically capped rollout (e.g. 500 or 1000 cars). This is the smart way to do it - and I bet they have a randomized control group running 12.5 to compare this to. They can watch their metrics and ensure it looks good (or fix any issues they find) before ramping up the rollout further.
12.11 could be the 12.10 code but with the traffic control feature flag enabled. Though seeing that it’s only gone to model Ys so far could indicate it’s something else.
BrandonLive
MS LR (refresh) Blue/Black/21s/FSD
This is a dumb response. First, they don’t build the car to attain a specific speed - in fact they actually limit the car’s maximum speed afterward.
Second, they don’t design and build the car just for the US. There are plenty of markets with higher highway speed limits (or no limits). Third, there are places in the US where it’s legal to drive faster than 85mph (including, of course, race tracks).
Restricted access highways and empty straightaways in the middle of the country are different from city and rural roads with cross traffic, traffic lights, and stop signs. Treating them differently and having stricter limits for the latter is very sensible. Especially as they wade into uncharted waters.
I purchased FSD with my original order two years ago, but haven't yet been notified to bring in my car for the HW3 computer replacement. So apparently not getting this capability.
Anyone know what % of owners in my position have or have not had HW3 installed?
Thanks,
RT
Anyone know what % of owners in my position have or have not had HW3 installed?
Thanks,
RT
This is surely a logical way to go about the testing, however, FSD, from what I gathered, was never meant to be completed product from the get-go, bur rather, a slow progression with us as the beta testers.
The issue here is we really don't know the percentage of FSD owners out there. Maybe it's a big enough number to collect meaningful data. Also, taking away features isn't going to fly with Tesla owners. They'll reach for the pitch forks.
And leaving it as a crippled, unfinished product isn't going to go over well either. Then you have the people that paid for FSD seeing others getting features that should be exclusive to them and not being pleased about it.
Tesla wants people to pay 7k, not sit on the fence.
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