Don't claim to be a battery expert, but both packs will experience an equivalent voltage drop under heavy acceleration and also the cells would "tire" just as easily. Folks who have driven the P90D note that it is able to pull quite a bit more on the 1/4 mile indicating that the cells sustain higher output for longer periods. The only way I see this happening is with different cell specs.
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Don't claim to be a battery expert, but both packs will experience an equivalent voltage drop under heavy acceleration and also the cells would "tire" just as easily. Folks who have driven the P90D note that it is able to pull quite a bit more on the 1/4 mile indicating that the cells sustain higher output for longer periods. The only way I see this happening is with different cell specs.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
You're likely correct. A change in the BMS behavior could like not have this effect? I mean on full throttle I'd suppose the cells all just "open the floodgates 100%" and let the drive train draw whatever amps it can right?
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Can you monitor it with the app? Service are usually quick now to turn off remote access but you never know. If you can access it, please let us know the battery charge level.
There are time slips showing a P90D (not Ludicrous) with better trap times and speeds than the P85D?????? I didn't realize that.
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There are no P85DLs yet so nobody can really say for sure even if Tesla is claiming the performance won't be equivalent. They could just be hedging.
You are correct. They think the battery is just settling, that to keep monitoring the range and let them know if it keeps dropping.
I will post again in about a week with my range.
SkinnyWeasel
Member
Thought I would update. Hit a new low of 233 this week so I decided to call service. They "downloaded some data on my battery performance" (whatever that means) and said that it is operating totally within spec. They also said that (1) rated range IS affected by temperature and as it is getting colder in Chicago that can impact rated range (I know others have said rated range is not impacted by temperature - anyone know who is right?), (2) the algorithm was updated in 7.0 and that has had this impact of reducing rated range on other cars too and (3) the algorithm gets funky after some time without a long drive which I have not had in Chicago in a while. Going to keep watching this but it is likely to get much colder in Chicago soon so we will have to see how this progresses. Hope this helps the discussion.
When it gets colder, less energy can be extracted from the cells. Hence, rated range *is* impacted to some extent by temps. However, when this is the case, the range display should show the snowflake with an estimate of how much is being lost. Additionally, pre conditioning the car should cause all of this range to return even when cold.
MarcG
Active Member
Great idea! [I'm catching up just now on this thread - thanks to @msnow for pointing me to it from the Firmware 7.0 thread where I posted about my sudden drop in rated range Firmware 7.0 - Page 122 (post #1212)]
I had actually put together a Google doc a while back after starting a thread on the subject of declining rate range, but no one had taken me up on it so I haven't updated it in a while.
How about starting now? If you don't feel comfortable sharing your data, you can make up a username or something to make it anonymous:
Telsa Model S Range - Google Sheets
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The rated range and ideal range are not effected by external factors. The "Estimated" range is effected by driving patterns and maybe temperature. You can "Estimated" through the REST api through apps like Visible Tesla.
The range you actually get will be effected a lot by temperature which will show up increasing wh / mile.
My 90% of 226 on my P85D has not changed from 100 degrees down to 55 degrees over the last several months.
Can you try charging up to 95% and leave it overnight? The bleeders should balance the cells at anything over 93%. If it's a balancing issue, the rated range should go up after sitting for hours above 93%. I don't recommend 100% because it's not good for the battery to leave it like that for a long time.
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OK, I just realized you have 21" wheels which Tesla states drops range by 3%. So if you have a P90DL that would be 253(P85D) + 6% but then subtract 3% for your wheels which means you should be at 234 rated for your P90DL at 90%. The estimate includes 21" wheels as the car knows which wheels are installed.
What were you getting originally?
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MarcG
Active Member
Where did you get this 6% figure for the drop in range when going from 19" to 21" wheels?
Per a screenshot I took of Tesla's website a while back, the drop is about 3% (250 to 242):
SkinnyWeasel
Member
First, thanks for all the feedback. I was getting 241 originally for about two days and then the creep down began...240, 238, 236, 235, etc. Brought the car home on September 29th. We are at November 11th and down to 233 or 8 miles of rated range loss. Losing just under 2 miles a week. I have charged to 95% maybe three weeks ago. Has not impacted the decline. Went right back to the decline of 1-2 miles per week.
So at new the car did show 241 at 90% which is exactly what I expected - 241 (253*1.06=268 *.9=241). That's 253 for P85D plus the 6% minus the 10% for the 90% state of charge. That is exactly what the car was delivered with before the decline started. I understand your point completely about 3% for the 21s so that would take me to 234 exactly. So in theory, if the car stops declining here than that is just the algorithm figuring out that I have 21s on the car. I would be surprised if it actually works that way but would be pretty cool if it does and if the decline actually stops at 233.
Second, it is pretty disappointing that I had two people from the Tesla service team tell me that temperature impacts rate range when you guys are saying that is just wrong. I was aware that weather impacts estimated range in the app based on Wh usage/mile.
i will update if the decline continues from here. Again, thanks for all the insight. I will be sure to call my service rep back and explain to them that rated range is not adjusted for weather.
ArtInCT
Always Learning
Skinny:
I have seen about 5 P90DL's in the delivery bay at my local SC. Each was displaying between 240 and 242 miles of rated range at 90% with 241 being the most common display. So you were right in there as a "normal" starting point of rated range.
Next... what is your typical State of Charge (SOC) each day when you recharge? Are you or have you gotten down into the lower end of rated range? I know for my typical driving style, I will put on about 45 miles per day. To that end, I will probably charge to 70% when I get my P90DL. I have read here on TMC that the rated range algorithm is most accurate when you go from a high SOC to a low SOC and then recharge back up.
Regarding Rated Range, clearly a White Paper from Tesla Engineering would be of great value to all, but alas it is not available, yet. In the future, when Tesla service informs you of information, (such as rated range being impacted by temperature), well I would ask that person(s) exactly where did they obtain that knowledge, and can you have access to that information. In the spirit of learning and knowledge, of course.
Enjoy your P90DL, I have test driven two and it is a thrill.
I have seen about 5 P90DL's in the delivery bay at my local SC. Each was displaying between 240 and 242 miles of rated range at 90% with 241 being the most common display. So you were right in there as a "normal" starting point of rated range.
Next... what is your typical State of Charge (SOC) each day when you recharge? Are you or have you gotten down into the lower end of rated range? I know for my typical driving style, I will put on about 45 miles per day. To that end, I will probably charge to 70% when I get my P90DL. I have read here on TMC that the rated range algorithm is most accurate when you go from a high SOC to a low SOC and then recharge back up.
Regarding Rated Range, clearly a White Paper from Tesla Engineering would be of great value to all, but alas it is not available, yet. In the future, when Tesla service informs you of information, (such as rated range being impacted by temperature), well I would ask that person(s) exactly where did they obtain that knowledge, and can you have access to that information. In the spirit of learning and knowledge, of course.
Enjoy your P90DL, I have test driven two and it is a thrill.
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I'm in although I don't have a lot of the historical data like you have. It's mostly in my head. Hopefully it can be simplified somewhat like ArtInCt's spreadsheet upthread.
Update on my range loss...90% seems to have stabilized at 252/253 a loss of about 5/6 miles from day 1 (9/15/15). I had been losing about 1 mile per week.
MarcG
Active Member
Thanks! Some data is better than none..
I've been thinking a little bit about this recent rated range drop, and had a thought while taking a shower this morning. It's somewhat playing devil's advocate, but please hear (or read) me out of a minute:
I know that *historically* the rated range has NOT been impacted by ambient temperature. HOWEVER seeing that the weather HAS gotten colder, and in my personal experience over the last couple of weeks it's been in the low-mid teens in ºC (50's in ºF) whereas it's been in the 20's ºC (70's ºF) before, AND that most of us are now on some version of Firmware 7.0 - could it be that Tesla has updated the displayed rated range algorithm to now take into account recent ambient temperatures??
If that's the case, when I wake up in the morning and my car shows me a rated range of X miles when it's 46F, and the next morning when it's 70F I should have X+Y miles showing as my rated range. This does not happen on my car, and we did have extreme temp swings last week, so I do not think there was an update to include ambient temperature.
<--- don't have a 90D, but I would assume the same logic would apply across the fleet.
ArtInCT
Always Learning
MAX*, the 90's have a totally different traction pack called the Flexpack (there is a thread that shows the 90 part number and a part's list which gives it that name). The 90D and P90D and P90DL (and possibly even the X 90's) each have the same pack part number. It is possible that this new traction pack or battery management system differs from the 85 packs in form and perhaps even features. Of course we do not know this to be a fact.
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