After 5-weeks, I turned FSD Beta off!

After years of waiting I finally got my FSD Beta! After 6-weeks I turned it off.

I found the promise of the FSD Beta to be overblown. Yes it is very cool that the car will navigate on city streets to a destination. But the car is far too timid to be usable. It is worse than driving with a student driver. Also, the car’s hesitation causes a lot of problems with other drivers who get confused when they see the car stop or slow, when it should not. But that is not what made me turn it off.

I turned it off because it made the overall driving experience annoying, and more dangerous.

With the beta turned-on, the car makes speed changes at nearly every speed limit sign, even when only running TACC. Not only is this annoying but these changers often alarm my passengers and sometimes surprise the cars behind. The car does not do this when the FSD is disabled.

And then there is a notice at nearly every traffic light that one is coming, even when running only on TACC. I find I am spending time clearing nuisance alerts instead focusing 100% of my time on driving the car. And the sudden speed changes, if you miss one of the alerts, is just another version of the phantom breaking problem with the same set of issues for the cars behind. Note that I have this feature disabled under AP. This does not occur if FSD is disabled.

Next we have speed based lane changes. I disabled this under AP and the FSD stack just ignores this as well, and there is no way to tell it not to do so.

So overall, the benefit of having FSD is very minimal, while the negative impact to quality and enjoyment of driving is very real. I definably will not be buying FSD on a future car, unless these problems are fixed.

"Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[ATPMSD]

@EVNow Thanks for the updated video link, I found it interesting!

 

[COS Blue]

Tesla says the negatives of low-res Radar outweigh the positives. Show us you are right and they are wrong.

I get significantly more startling phantom braking events since my radar has been disabled. I can no longer drive toward the sun if it's low in the sky since radar was disabled. So, like, the car drives worse than it did before radar was disabled.

 

[EVNow]

I get significantly more startling phantom braking events since my radar has been disabled. I can no longer drive toward the sun if it's low in the sky since radar was disabled. So, like, the car drives worse than it did before radar was disabled.

I don't have those issues. So obviously car doesn't drive worse.

This is the reason - with a sample of 1 - we can't come to universal conclusions.

 

[COS Blue]

I don't have those issues. So obviously car doesn't drive worse.

This is the reason - with a sample of 1 - we can't come to universal conclusions.

On the contrary. We can conclude that it works fine for some, and not fine for others. Thus overall it is a net degradation.

 

[Dewg]

On the contrary. We can conclude that it works fine for some, and not fine for others. Thus overall it is a net degradation.

What about people who had poor experiences with radar, but then improved once radar was removed? I had phantom braking quite a bit while on radar, usually at overpasses and large freeway signs common in SoCal. Once radar was removed, phantom braking has improved with each update to the point it's a minor issue now.

 

[COS Blue]

What about people who had poor experiences with radar, but then improved once radar was removed? I had phantom braking quite a bit while on radar, usually at overpasses and large freeway signs common in SoCal. Once radar was removed, phantom braking has improved with each update to the point it's a minor issue now.

That's fair. So for some, it made things better. For some, it made things worse. For others, it made no difference.

Different people will conclude different things. But to me it reminds me of whack-a-mole. One thing gets fixed, another problem gets introduced. What that says to me is that they really don't have a handle on getting things to consistently "just work". Some might enjoy the updates where "my car works differently today than it did yesterday -- let's see if it's better or worse!" I find it annoying at best, unsafe at worst. I don't want to wonder how my car is going to react to something. I want consistency, predictability, and reliability. I realize the thread is originally about FSD, and probably most people with FSD understand and are ok with it constantly changing. I guess my point is when they start doing things like disabling radar, they are messing with the predictability for us regular people who just want to drive a car with cruise control. I think every vehicle manufacturer other than Tesla has a reliable and predictable TACC system.

 

[Dewg]

That's fair. So for some, it made things better. For some, it made things worse. For others, it made no difference.

Different people will conclude different things. But to me it reminds me of whack-a-mole. One thing gets fixed, another problem gets introduced. What that says to me is that they really don't have a handle on getting things to consistently "just work". Some might enjoy the updates where "my car works differently today than it did yesterday -- let's see if it's better or worse!" I find it annoying at best, unsafe at worst. I don't want to wonder how my car is going to react to something. I want consistency, predictability, and reliability. I realize the thread is originally about FSD, and probably most people with FSD understand and are ok with it constantly changing. I guess my point is when they start doing things like disabling radar, they are messing with the predictability for us regular people who just want to drive a car with cruise control. I think every vehicle manufacturer other than Tesla has a reliable and predictable TACC system.

That's one of the reasons I bought a Tesla - they aren't a typical/traditional vehicle manufacturer. They are trying new things, pushing the envelope on what a car can do - essentially a computer on wheels. They have issues as they test new approaches, and those that apply the updates get to watch the evolution of the system. I know several Tesla owners who never apply software updates and are running the same software the car came with. To them, it's predicable as they know all the quirks of the car since they don't change. If I wanted a standard, predictable, dare I say "boring" car, I could have just ignored all the updates, or just have bought a Toyota or BMW. My Chevy Bolt (one of the first EVs with decent range) was a boring EV with basic cruise control. It never got updated with new features, never changed how it operated, and did its job for the 5 years I owned it.

Like you said - some people like that, some people don't. I chalk that up to doing research on the car company before you buy the car. Knowing what you're getting yourself into.

 

[PianoAl]

As someone looking to purchase a Tesla it seems that fsd is not worth it. Which car would you recommend I look for - one that has enhanced auto pilot or just ap 1 is good enough ?

The best feature of EAP is its ability to change lane for you when you request it. No craning your neck in city driving when trying to shoehorn yourself into the next lane. EAP is fast, too, since it's always looking.

As for automatically passing slower cars, that's nice but not critical.

 

[johnnycnote]

Then let's solve your problem. FSD is not here today, only the FSD beta. No matter how loud you complain about it, you won't make it here any faster. If you bought a car expecting it to have FSD, then either I'm sorry and you need to try to return or sale the car.

Again, FSD is not here today. We all know that. We don't need to hear people complaining about it.

Do you have anything positive to add to the forums?

Agree. Buy a Tesla, but don't buy FSD unless you're willing to live with the fact that FSD might not happen for many more years. Better yet, buy a Tesla and rent FSD when it becomes available. If you like it, trade in your Tesla for a new one with FSD

 

[drtimhill]

One last point, the goal is SELF DRIVING, not HUMAN ASSISTED DRIVING. With that goal in mind, yes the car has to see more then the human does, it has to be BETTER then the Human.

Actually no, right now FSDb, name aside, is positioned as an L2 drive assist system. And apparently it is doing better than humans even now based on data gathered to date (though since this is with beta testers and sourced from Tesla the veracity is unknown). To be sure, it's nice to strive for a fully autonomous car, and FSD is hopefully a step toward that, but its not currently aimed at L4/L5 (Elons random assertions notwithstanding).

 

[drtimhill]

Cameras are blinded by sunlight and rain, this is not a problem for radar (except in heavy rain), so removing radar was foolish.

Again, the radar Tesla was using would not have helped with the blinded camera problem, since it could only augment camera data, not substitute for it. I doubt if any autonomous car would continue to try to drive with blinded or compromised vision, regardless of the other sensor suite.

 

[BrendonHolt]

Actually no, right now FSDb, name aside, is positioned as an L2 drive assist system. And apparently it is doing better than humans even now based on data gathered to date (though since this is with beta testers and sourced from Tesla the veracity is unknown). To be sure, it's nice to strive for a fully autonomous car, and FSD is hopefully a step toward that, but its not currently aimed at L4/L5 (Elons random assertions notwithstanding).

I think a name change is in order, Enhanced Autopilot + would suffice. In reality, people buy it and pay 15K then as this thread is about turn it off. Turn it off and confused by features. Some have said, simply ask for your money back on the FSD, but we all know it is not that easy with Tesla.

Was told to be positive, but in all fairness, a name change is at the very least in order. People clearly trusting the technology more then they should.

Bigger concern is cars are not phones, if someone purchases a feature on the promise it will deliver at some time Full Self Driving, and it does not deliver, or if you are asked to simply buy a new one that does work, this is not a cell phone, it is a car.

People don't just throw 50-100K plus cars away to get a new car. The cars need to deliver on the promises made.
A change in name, FSD would at least get rid of the false marketing and sales process. If you have old hardware that was not supported, like my tesla Model X, where FSD was never promised is fine, but sell it and you have to make the deliverables.
I purchased my wife a used Tesla 2021 M3LR to replace her 2018 M3LRRW that was rear ended and totaled, and I only got one with Enhanced Auto Pilot, less miles, less price, knowing the other features may not work on any of the current HW3 or HW4 Releases. It is my opinion.

I did not see anyone explain why Truck Industry, and all other Autonomous Vehicle Tech and Innovation includes LIDAR, RADAR and VISUAL and Tesla is going vision only. All I have seen is explanations on what is now, but that is not in line with what was promised or made to be believed as true by Elon Musk. It is also not in line with "What will be" an excellent book by the way.

 

[Dewg]

Bigger concern is cars are not phones, if someone purchases a feature on the promise it will deliver at some time Full Self Driving, and it does not deliver, or if you are asked to simply buy a new one that does work, this is not a cell phone, it is a car.

People don't just throw 50-100K plus cars away to get a new car. The cars need to deliver on the promises made.

Not that I disagree, but I'm curious where the line is for you on when something is important and must be delivered. Is it $5,000? $10K? $30K? Why is a car more important than a phone for delivering on a promise?

I did not see anyone explain why Truck Industry, and all other Autonomous Vehicle Tech and Innovation includes LIDAR, RADAR and VISUAL and Tesla is going vision only. All I have seen is explanations on what is now, but that is not in line with what was promised or made to be believed as true by Elon Musk. It is also not in line with "What will be" an excellent book by the way.

It's because that's what Telsa does. We, as consumers, don't get to dictate what Telsa, or any company, does with their products. The only power we have is the free market, or more commonly called "vote with your dollar". If people stop buying Tesla cars when the competition comes out with RADAR/LIDAR/USS/Cameras cars, then Tesla may start changing to stay competitive in the market.

I hate Apple products - I've never owned an iPhone. The reason I hate them is they control their device with an iron fist. I like the freedom of Android. But I cannot dictate to Apple how to run their product. I just vote with my dollars and buy Android.

 

[BrendonHolt]

Not that I disagree, but I'm curious where the line is for you on when something is important and must be delivered. Is it $5,000? $10K? $30K? Why is a car more important than a phone for delivering on a promise?


It's because that's what Telsa does. We, as consumers, don't get to dictate what Telsa, or any company, does with their products. The only power we have is the free market, or more commonly called "vote with your dollar". If people stop buying Tesla cars when the competition comes out with RADAR/LIDAR/USS/Cameras cars, then Tesla may start changing to stay competitive in the market.

I hate Apple products - I've never owned an iPhone. The reason I hate them is they control their device with an iron fist. I like the freedom of Android. But I cannot dictate to Apple how to run their product. I just vote with my dollars and buy Android.

50K is a lot to throw away, so the line to me is easily at 1K I buy android also, for that reason. Some people have spent 150K for these cars.
You basically agree that it is ok for consumers to buy a car with the promise that as they update FSD it will be available to them, but then agree that it is ok to simply tell them to buy a newer model when it comes available, because their cars they purchased in the last 4 years or less no longer are supported.
So Tesla will be the new Apple, only now with much more expensive phones.

In the end, FSD needs a rename.

 

[BrendonHolt]

50K is a lot to throw away, so the line to me is easily at 1K I buy android also, for that reason. Some people have spent 150K for these cars.
You basically agree that it is ok for consumers to buy a car with the promise that as they update FSD it will be available to them, but then agree that it is ok to simply tell them to buy a newer model when it comes available, because their cars they purchased in the last 4 years or less no longer are supported.
So Tesla will be the new Apple, only now with much more expensive phones.

In the end, FSD needs a rename.

WHO IS GOING TO BE THE PERSON THAT TELLS ALL THE PEOPLE WITH THE 2023 AUTOMOBILES THAT THE FINAL FSD 1 YEAR FROM NOW DOES NOT WORK ON THEIR CAR.

More importantly, the consumer has been told by people like me the Tesla is a great car, they buy it on word of mouth, then it does not deliver.

Those dollars can come in today, but not delivering on this promise will be huge negative publicity and will effect the brand, no two ways about it.

 

[BrendonHolt]

You are misrepresenting what they stated.

They said, radar was giving so many false negatives, it was more trouble than it was worth.

https://thenextweb.com/news/tesla-ai-chief-explains-self-driving-cars-dont-need-lidar-syndication

He starts off with the basics, supply chain issues, lack of development resources to incorporate, bloatware and making the code bigger. Yes false readings and other issues aside, it takes a lot of development to incorporate all these extra sensors. As a long time Software guy in the industry, it is best to listen to the words and parse them carefully.

The most telling was "The cost is high, and your potentially just not seeing it if you are just trying to be a computer vision engineer and I am just trying to improve my network and is it more useful or less useful how do you splice it, the thing is once you consider the full cost...."

In the end, I have been very positive on a very risky subject in my brief time on this forum.

The difference is Tesla may be willing to take the risk and liability as well as their customers, but the trucking industry as I pointed out will not be, Commercial Trucks with 80,000lbs and company name on the line, like Costco or Frito Lay, will not take this liability, and will not invest heavy in it until it works well. They will continue to use it as an autopilot technology, very similar to how Tesla is doing it.

It is obvious that cost and getting cars out the door are a high priority, frankly should be, but then FSD should not be sold a Full Self Driving, it should be Enhanced Autopilot +, and should be stated to the consumer that this is a very risky technology that REQUIRES full engagement, could go as far as require it.
See we can argue all day long that humans are idiots and should not sleep in the back of the car, or driver seat, or text and drive, but humans, especially when they think the car can drive itself will be humans, idiots that they are. I know that we can go back and forth till the cows come home about how this is not Tesla Fault, but in the end, they are a major manufacture now, and responsible for the product, good, bad and ugly.
This thread was about how one person had to turn it off, because of issues they were having, many other TECH guys here have posted videos, all showing the good/cool and the not so good/uncool. Can we all agree that there is some reall GOOD/COOL and some BAD/UNCOOL things about current FSD, which has come a long way? Can we agree Tesla could improve on it's marketing and wording, can we come to some positive place in this thread.

A Tesla owner says he knows people who tie weights to the steering wheel to trick the system into thinking they are actively driving

Some Tesla owners find ways to drive hands-free by tricking their cars' Autopilot and Full Self-Driving systems, The New York Times Magazine reported.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[BrendonHolt]

You are misrepresenting what they stated.

They said, radar was giving so many false negatives, it was more trouble than it was worth.

https://thenextweb.com/news/tesla-ai-chief-explains-self-driving-cars-dont-need-lidar-syndication

A very telling position from Tesla is by default true. In the argument about LIDAR. "Do you have the fleet or not"

To this end tesla is way ahead, they have over 300K cars with it installed and around 5K users that are very intense on using and testing it. But the FSD and cars/fleet record driver actions.

This is giving them a huge advantage in that they have more data modeling. This is where Tesla could gain a huge advantage in the data warehouse and analytics.

 

[ATPMSD]

We can argue and debate this till the cows come home, but it is all irrelevant. Tesla does not read the forums and is going to do whatever they want. So debate away if you wish!

 

[BrendonHolt]

We can argue and debate this till the cows come home, but it is all irrelevant. Tesla does not read the forums and is going to do whatever they want. So debate away if you wish!

Well that would be unfortunate for them. Like the data they are collecting, it could be valuable information. With that point in mind, I guess this forum and debate is mute, as like you said, this whole conversation is irrelevant and our opinions/views worthless to them.

 

[ewoodrick]

I think a name change is in order, Enhanced Autopilot + would suffice. In reality, people buy it and pay 15K then as this thread is about turn it off. Turn it off and confused by features. Some have said, simply ask for your money back on the FSD, but we all know it is not that easy with Tesla.

The name is FSD and it is currently in beta. The name is not intended to reflect the current state, it's intended to reflect the end-state.

And even in it's current state "I" think that it way beyond EAP+