After 5-weeks, I turned FSD Beta off!

After years of waiting I finally got my FSD Beta! After 6-weeks I turned it off.

I found the promise of the FSD Beta to be overblown. Yes it is very cool that the car will navigate on city streets to a destination. But the car is far too timid to be usable. It is worse than driving with a student driver. Also, the car’s hesitation causes a lot of problems with other drivers who get confused when they see the car stop or slow, when it should not. But that is not what made me turn it off.

I turned it off because it made the overall driving experience annoying, and more dangerous.

With the beta turned-on, the car makes speed changes at nearly every speed limit sign, even when only running TACC. Not only is this annoying but these changers often alarm my passengers and sometimes surprise the cars behind. The car does not do this when the FSD is disabled.

And then there is a notice at nearly every traffic light that one is coming, even when running only on TACC. I find I am spending time clearing nuisance alerts instead focusing 100% of my time on driving the car. And the sudden speed changes, if you miss one of the alerts, is just another version of the phantom breaking problem with the same set of issues for the cars behind. Note that I have this feature disabled under AP. This does not occur if FSD is disabled.

Next we have speed based lane changes. I disabled this under AP and the FSD stack just ignores this as well, and there is no way to tell it not to do so.

So overall, the benefit of having FSD is very minimal, while the negative impact to quality and enjoyment of driving is very real. I definably will not be buying FSD on a future car, unless these problems are fixed.

"Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[drtimhill]

Yes, using the old stack but still using FSDb (Autosteering feature) on the highway. I watch how my car (with FSDb) and my wife's car (with AP only) and the difference is dramatic. The things my car has done that are patently ridiculous and occasionally dangerous are vast, while my wife's car is almost flawless with almost none of the issues that I experience.

Translation: It's beta software.

 

[DWtsn]

Translation: It's beta software.

Absolutely, agree 100% And that being said, I expect a lot of weirdness and quirkiness. I also expect to have to monitor the car in case it does odd things that are unexpected. However, even the best drivers in Formula One, NASCAR, etc., have experienced, despite their best efforts, despite the fact that they're paying attention and actively driving the car, things can happen so quickly and can be so unexpected and inexplicable that you can get behind the power-curve very quickly. This has happened numerous times with my car and has nearly caused an accident several times.

There's no way to expect a car, even in beta, to inexplicably swerve so hard that it swerves from the #1 lane through the #2 lane and onto a highway exit lane at 80mph. There's no way to anticipate that your car, while stopped in a dedicated left hand turn lane, while waiting for oncoming traffic, that the car would suddenly lurch forward, in front of oncoming traffic and directly INTO the front of a stopped car waiting to turn onto the roadway I was turning from. I yanked the yoke a mere feet from slamming head-on into a stopped car. There's no way to anticipate that while approaching a 4-way stop, with a flashing red light, at an intersection I encounter daily, the car would just decide the other day to NOT stop and to attempt to blaze through the intersection at 60mph. There's no way to expect that while traveling 37mph in a posted 35mph zone the car would approach a local postal delivery vehicle that pulled to the right side of the roadway to put mail into the roadside mailbox and my car attempted to slam into the back of that vehicle.

These are not things that even a "beta" program should do. I love what the car has the potential to do and I think Tesla and Elon are striving for the moon and I like that. I am all for being a "beta" user even though I had to pay $10,000 for the "honor" of doing that. However, my expectation from a beta program is that it won't try to get me into a wreck every few weeks. And it truly has! Therefore, if I had to do it over again, I don't believe I would put up with the stress and "cat in a room full of rocking chairs" feeling every time I drive the car and I would save myself $10,000. My wife's 2022 M3LR does not have FSDb and while she has experienced a few phantom braking events but she has not experienced anywhere near the other issues that I have experienced with my car.

 

[DWtsn]

My car did the exact same thing passing a mail truck yesterday. Except that I didn't yank control from the car as it calmly moved to the left to get around the mail trick.
On another day it came up to another mail truck and stopped. That's because it realized that there was an oncoming car and couldn't safely pass. The mail truck moved to the next mailbox and this time the road was cleared as my car pulled to the left to pass the truck.

And for the lane change abort, they happen, but they happen because the car has decided that it is unsafe for some reason. It's trying to be safe.

I've had my car abort the lane change several times, despite a well marked roadway, etc. My concern the other evening was the aborted maneuver was so abrupt that the car, while halfway into the #1 lane, aborted so abruptly that it swerved back through the #2 lane and onto a highway exit lane at 80mph. That exit lane is very short and makes a sharp 90 degree, right turn. There was no way I could safely take that exit without exiting the roadway, thus leaving me with the option of yanking the car through the gore point and back onto the highway.

 

[drtimhill]

There's no way to expect a car, even in beta, to inexplicably swerve so hard that it swerves from the #1 lane through the #2 lane and onto a highway exit lane at 80mph. There's no way to anticipate that your car, while stopped in a dedicated left hand turn lane, while waiting for oncoming traffic, that the car would suddenly lurch forward, in front of oncoming traffic and directly INTO the front of a stopped car waiting to turn onto the roadway I was turning from. I yanked the yoke a mere feet from slamming head-on into a stopped car. There's no way to anticipate that while approaching a 4-way stop, with a flashing red light, at an intersection I encounter daily, the car would just decide the other day to NOT stop and to attempt to blaze through the intersection at 60mph. There's no way to expect that while traveling 37mph in a posted 35mph zone the car would approach a local postal delivery vehicle that pulled to the right side of the roadway to put mail into the roadside mailbox and my car attempted to slam into the back of that vehicle.

This is not my experience of FSDb, nor many others (go watch the YT videos). You might want to check to see the car sensors etc are not malfunctioning (though its a long shot, as the car usually detects that itself).

In fact, the ONE time in the last 6 months (earlier releases WERE less stable, I agree) that the car did something I thought was crazy (suddenly lurch sideways out of my lane partly into an oncoming lane) turned out to be justified, as it was doing an emergency maneuver to avoid a car that was going to side-swipe me (turned into my lane without checking).

 

[Supcom]

However, even the best drivers in Formula One, NASCAR, etc., have experienced, despite their best efforts, despite the fact that they're paying attention and actively driving the car, things can happen so quickly and can be so unexpected and inexplicable that you can get behind the power-curve very quickly.

Do I read that correctly? You equate FSD to a race environment with cars travelling at 200 mph inches apart?

TMC is always good for a laugh.

 

[DWtsn]

Do I read that correctly? You equate FSD to a race environment with cars travelling at 200 mph inches apart?

TMC is always good for a laugh.

I think what's you're missing is the relationship between professional drivers traveling inches apart at 200mph and non-professional drivers traveling 80mph a mere feet apart. That relationship is valid despite (moderator edit)

 

[dachshund]

Do I read that correctly? You equate FSD to a race environment with cars travelling at 200 mph inches apart?

TMC is always good for a laugh.

That's your contribution to the topic? Nothing about the fact that DWtsn's car swerved hard into traffic? And off the freeway at 80?

I guess it's hard to imagine this type of sudden, hard steering if you've never experienced it. Mine jerked the steering wheel into the next lane once - hard - and this is impossible to correct in real time. But I guess everyone's car is different. Which is another issue.....

 

[dachshund]

I've had my car abort the lane change several times, despite a well marked roadway, etc. My concern the other evening was the aborted maneuver was so abrupt that the car, while halfway into the #1 lane, aborted so abruptly that it swerved back through the #2 lane and onto a highway exit lane at 80mph. That exit lane is very short and makes a sharp 90 degree, right turn. There was no way I could safely take that exit without exiting the roadway, thus leaving me with the option of yanking the car through the gore point and back onto the highway.

If mine did this I would make a service call. Tesla should be notified of this. I would also do camera calibration once in a while.

 

[DWtsn]

If mine did this I would make a service call. Tesla should be notified of this. I would also do camera calibration once in a while.

I have and they are aware.

 

[BrendonHolt]

This fighting is really sad. The fact is the Cars have major issues, what technology causes it is irrelevant. In the end it is very dangerous to count on regardless if you are going 5mph or 100mph.

Frankly, Elon should give everyone the money they spent on FSD and ask them to be Beta Users for free. Frankly, many of the issues are much more Alpha then Beta when released.

Who is their ALPHA testers before it goes to Beta? Rhetorical question, but relevant all the same.

 

[drtimhill]

This fighting is really sad. The fact is the Cars have major issues, what technology causes it is irrelevant. In the end it is very dangerous to count on regardless if you are going 5mph or 100mph.

What "major issues", and on what "facts" do you base the claim that the car is "very dangerous"?

 

[BrendonHolt]

What "major issues", and on what "facts" do you base the claim that the car is "very dangerous"?

Wow, not one answer on why they don't call it Alpha? Not a pointer to the Alpha Users before Beta?

My experience, they put Alpha Software on peoples cars, then expect them to treat it as Beta, then it does eradict things, then some people here try to split hairs over what modules/modes failed.

In the end it is very sad that the people here cannot agree that other users claims may be relevant.
Being one who had my Tesla go from 80 to 30 on a Rainy day because it felt the Truck was going to come over, it did not, causing the people behind me to lock up their brakes on a very busy Interstate, is Dangerous.

I know I needed different version of the software, then that beta version when replaced with the new Beta Version will solve the issue that almost got me and others injured or worst dead.

I will stick with my OPINION that it is VERY DANGEROUS and not normal behavior.
You may stick with your Opinion and interject any facts or attack other forum users.
But in the end, we are ALPHA users, in BETA Users skin and Paying for that right.

REFUND THE MONEY AND CALL US ALL BETA AND HAVE US BE HAPPY TO PLAY FOR A BETTER PRODUCT.

 

[drtimhill]

I will stick with my OPINION that it is VERY DANGEROUS and not normal behavior.
You may stick with your Opinion and interject any facts or attack other forum users.
But in the end, we are ALPHA users, in BETA Users skin and Paying for that right.

You are of course enttiled to any opinion you like. My point was you claimed "very dangerous" as a fact, not an opinion -- go re-read your post. It's also always dubious to extrapolate from one incident to a general rule. A month ago, the (human) driver in front of me swerved sideways and I had to brake HARD to avoid an accident. Should I conclude that all human drivers are VERY DANGEROUS and they should all be banned?

If we took stuff off the market when there was ONE incident, regardless of the benefit, you would not have cars, or airplanes, or anti-biotics, or pretty much anything else. Sure, these things have benefits, and that's the point .. we balance the pros against the cons. We don't hysterically ban something based on a single data point. And yes, FSDb does indeed have pros, since it's measuring as safer than the average human driver by a large margin.

As for alpha va beta, those terms were long ago degraded so much by the software industry that "alpha" is now meaningless. In addition, modern AI/NNs exist in a different world, where training with synthetic data in a controlled environment can only get you so far. To an extent, like it or not, you HAVE to train these system with real world data. If you dont, you end up with a distorted NN that behaves randomly when faced with a real world of which it has had no prior experience (witness ChatGPT and some of its bizarre conversations). Terms like "alpha" and "beta", even in their old meanings, are really not applicable on systems that are trained rather then developed.

Finally, I should note that even before the first FSDb appeared, there were wild claims of the vast number of accidents that would DEFINITELY occur .. then, when that didn't happen, they were modified to "as soon as it goes to a wider audience" and then "as soon as it goes to an open beta" .. yet where are all those accidents?

 

[Dewg]

Wow, not one answer on why they don't call it Alpha? Not a pointer to the Alpha Users before Beta?

My experience, they put Alpha Software on peoples cars, then expect them to treat it as Beta, then it does eradict things, then some people here try to split hairs over what modules/modes failed.

In the end it is very sad that the people here cannot agree that other users claims may be relevant.
Being one who had my Tesla go from 80 to 30 on a Rainy day because it felt the Truck was going to come over, it did not, causing the people behind me to lock up their brakes on a very busy Interstate, is Dangerous.

I know I needed different version of the software, then that beta version when replaced with the new Beta Version will solve the issue that almost got me and others injured or worst dead.

I will stick with my OPINION that it is VERY DANGEROUS and not normal behavior.
You may stick with your Opinion and interject any facts or attack other forum users.
But in the end, we are ALPHA users, in BETA Users skin and Paying for that right.

REFUND THE MONEY AND CALL US ALL BETA AND HAVE US BE HAPPY TO PLAY FOR A BETTER PRODUCT.

I'll bite. What regulatory effect does the name have? If it was called Alpha, would it not be allowed on the road? If so, then none of us would have any form of ADAS functions on the car at all, even today. They would likely have to release "dumb cruise control", and possibly give basic radar-based adaptive cruise control. They could work on AP/NoA/FSD on private test tracks with limited safety drivers, but due to the lack of data points from a significantly reduced testing fleet, those features would be very slow to evolve.

I know you find it dangerous, and had a bad experience with it. I don't want to minimize your experience, but the leaps we're seeing with the ADAS functions are because there are nearly 400K testers out there. I know there are some here that feel the software hasn't improved much in the last year, but there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that it has improved significantly in the last 12 months - there are even youtube videos that compare 12 months ago to today.

To your point, "REFUND THE MONEY AND CALL US ALL BETA...", it seems to me that you want your money back, but want to continue using the "very dangerous" software. Is it dangerous and should be removed from the road (with a refund to everyone)? Or is it okay to use on the roads, but not mature enough to have a fee associated with it? If it's okay to use without a fee, then it's not "VERY DANGEROUS". Which one is it?

For me, I've had an excellent experience with FSD Beta, and AP is rock solid. It's worth the money I spent. Again, that's me. I'm not opposed to Tesla refunding your money, and removing the features from your car. I'll continue testing for your benefit.

 

[BrendonHolt]

I'll bite. What regulatory effect does the name have? If it was called Alpha, would it not be allowed on the road? If so, then none of us would have any form of ADAS functions on the car at all, even today. They would likely have to release "dumb cruise control", and possibly give basic radar-based adaptive cruise control. They could work on AP/NoA/FSD on private test tracks with limited safety drivers, but due to the lack of data points from a significantly reduced testing fleet, those features would be very slow to evolve.

I know you find it dangerous, and had a bad experience with it. I don't want to minimize your experience, but the leaps we're seeing with the ADAS functions are because there are nearly 400K testers out there. I know there are some here that feel the software hasn't improved much in the last year, but there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that it has improved significantly in the last 12 months - there are even youtube videos that compare 12 months ago to today.

To your point, "REFUND THE MONEY AND CALL US ALL BETA...", it seems to me that you want your money back, but want to continue using the "very dangerous" software. Is it dangerous and should be removed from the road (with a refund to everyone)? Or is it okay to use on the roads, but not mature enough to have a fee associated with it? If it's okay to use without a fee, then it's not "VERY DANGEROUS". Which one is it?

For me, I've had an excellent experience with FSD Beta, and AP is rock solid. It's worth the money I spent. Again, that's me. I'm not opposed to Tesla refunding your money, and removing the features from your car. I'll continue testing for your benefit.

I cannot ask for my money back because I did not purchase the FSD, I am using enhanced autopilot in the Model 3 and Mobile Eye, which I love on My Model X, older version. My point remains that they should not charge for it, they should perfect it and put it in production and if they don't have an alpha base it is dangerous to simply put it out there and see how it performs.

The move to Vision Only is clearly something very bold. Much debate here, but no one can debate that it is using its 400K users for this testing.

This should be more clearly articulated, for example the sales person could say, we are selling you this cool feature called FSD, it is in development right now and not really a feature of the car you should count on, but for 15k you can test it with us.

To me, I love the idea of FSD, but even the best of users when making videos are not living in a perfect world and having issues. Some people have 15k to throw away, hell people pay $150K for seat and engine/motor to drive around in, so 15k for a feature is perfectly fine for those that want to pay it.
But again, Tesla should do a much better job in the website and marketing to explain it does not work as advertised.

 

[BrendonHolt]

A month ago, the (human) driver in front of me swerved sideways and I had to brake HARD to avoid an accident. Should I conclude that all human drivers are VERY DANGEROUS and they should all be banned?

The analysis to human drivers is always a go to in this argument. I have put out the statistics and showed based on the amount of Human Drivers and the actual accidents, we avoid them very well over all.

This argument avoids the real issue in my opinion, and that is that FSD is in development, the Vision Only concept is definitely having some issues, as many here have pointed out, and yes we can split hairs on what is an acceptable.

As to your point failure rate for the FSD Software/Firmware/Hardware, but we cannot deny there is issues that HAVE TO BE RESOLVED and while there is no Production version we all take a risk in using the solution from Tesla.

As to human drivers, I believe at some point, not to far in the future, humans will not be the drivers. I believe when this happens, FSD will work great. There will still be out of scope things that happen that no system can account for, but overall driving will be very safe, because Humans will not be doing it.
This is the future, in the here and now, the car has to account for Humans better then humans.

 

[SalisburySam]

They would likely have to release "dumb cruise control"…

If one could only be so lucky. I’d take that option in a heartbeat.

 

[ewoodrick]

Wow, not one answer on why they don't call it Alpha? Not a pointer to the Alpha Users before Beta?

Alpha code, which is a term that really isn't used in general. Would be considered code that is internal and has not been released out of the doors. If you must use the term, there have been numerous alpha releases internally that never make it to the restricted Beta testers group. Just look a V11! How many versions of it haven't made it to the field?

 

[ewoodrick]

The analysis to human drivers is always a go to in this argument. I have put out the statistics and showed based on the amount of Human Drivers and the actual accidents, we avoid them very well over all.

38,000 people DIE each year from auto accidents. That doesn't include the people that are hurt. And that doesn't include the number of fender benders.
Doesn't seem like humans are doing that great.

But look at the FSD stats, In the "very dangerous" Tesla, there are 6 times less accidents.

 

[Bob Denny]

This is a great illustration of emotional crowd mentality.