After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[gearchruncher]

For me, I always took Elon's words as being his opinion, plans and hopes for the technology.

That's cool, but the Tesla website said "Coming This Year" when you bought FSD.

Even airline pilots must constantly be thinking about using manual or autopilot in different circumstances. They know that sometimes the computer can do a better job, and other times it needs a seasoned and reasoning pilot to take the controls. Even there, sometimes planes crash.

No, pilots do not constantly think about if the AP is better. They have very specific times when AP MUST be used like at high altitudes or in clouds. The AP has to tell them if it's failed or not performing, they don't just guess. They have times when AP cannot be used, like landing. The FAA highly regulates what an autopilot is, what it does, how well it does that, and when it can be used. There are actual manuals covering all of this, telling you what the AP can do, not a giant "beta" test where people try it and see what it can and can't do.

And the idea that planes "Sometimes crash"? 40K people are killed a year in the USA in car accidents. 37 people have been killed in commercial aviation in the USA in the last 10 YEARS. There wasn't a single fatality 2013 to 2018 and hasn't been one since the Kobe crash in early 2020. This is despite commercial aviation doing 50K flights a DAY and flying 306 billion passenger miles a year.

The rates of auto and aviation accidents are multiple orders of magnitude apart, and Full Self Driving and aviation autopilots have nothing to do with one another.

 

[HELLAWATTS]

What do think about this? California DMV is accusing Tesla of falsely advertising FSD and autopilot features.

The link is right here

 

[Barklikeadog]

What do think about this? California DMV is accusing Tesla of falsely advertising FSD and autopilot features.

The link is right here

DMV has them two different ways.

 

[Knightshade]

The car has a "drivers seat" because it requires a driver. Otherwise they would have just said "the person in the passenger seat".

This is flat out wrong. There's a legal definition difference between driver and passenger seats- check out the US FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS which has a slew of specific differences in requirements for the drivers seat versus passenger seats (things that must be in reach, or visible, or other requirements relevant to the person sitting there).

Certainly those laws may be updated in the future- but they're on the books now- so they could not have said 'passenger seat' when referring to the person sitting behind the steering wheel even if they weren't going to be needing to do any actual driving at all.

To be clear: if you take the time to read the complaint in Young v. Tesla, 21-cv-00917-JB-SCY (D.N.M. 2021)--which like all the docket entries, you can download as a PDF for free from Plainsite.org's website

FYI plainsite is run by a dude who has lost several lawsuits to Tesla (dismissed with prejudice in at least one case) and is known to dox folks who use his website, so might wanna be careful there.

Judge throws out TSLAQ lawsuit against Tesla, Elon Musk, and Model 3 owner

Federal Judge James Donato from California has formally dismissed a securities fraud and defamation lawsuit filed by a Tesla bear against CEO Elon Musk, Tesla, and a Model 3 owner. The order was filed on Thursday. In the order, Judge Donato noted that the lawsuit filed by Tesla bear and TSLAQ...

www.teslarati.com

 

[kabin]

Here's a relevant news story today.

'Tesla Is Sued By Drivers Over Alleged False Autopilot, Full Self-Driving Claims' - Reuters News

Tesla is sued by drivers over alleged false Autopilot, Full Self-Driving claims

Tesla Inc was sued on Wednesday in a proposed class action accusing Elon Musk's electric car company of misleading the public by falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features.

www.reuters.com

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

If we all contributed our EAP/FSD restitution money we could throw one epic party.

I think people will need one considering all the time spent talking about it.

 

[EVNow]

If we all contributed our EAP/FSD restitution money we could throw one epic party.

I think people will need one considering all the time spent talking about it.

All the clueless can join the class suit and get $69.69 each. The law firm will collect $69M. As someone said, there is a sucker born every minute ... ?

ps : Personally I hope Tesla deals with this lawsuit and gets the FSD monkey off its back for good.

 

[Supcom]

You haters can all join the class suit and get $69.69 each. The law firm will collect $69M. As someone said, there is a sucker born every minute ... ?

Maybe they'll get $5.00 off their next purchase of FSD.

 

[Dewg]

The way it should go is:

1) The suit succeeds and Tesla changes the name of FSD and AP to something more generic like other companies - "Tesla Driver Assist" (AP) and "Tesla Enhanced Driver Assist" (EAP) and "Tesla Premium Driver Assist" (FSD). All website verbiage and videos are re-created to indicate the current state of things, making it absolutely clear that "Tesla Premium Driver Assist" is a work-in-progress and does not have a release schedule.
2) Tesla pays out the $117 (or whatever small amount typical to class action suits) to the claimants to settle the suit
3) Tesla removes AP/EAP/FSD/FSD Beta from all the claimants vehicles. Claimants are returned to "Tesla Driver Assist" if their car was purchased after Autopilot was made standard.

FSD Beta continues development and advances as we've seen. Claimants can later re-purchase "Tesla Enhanced Driver Assist" or "Tesla Premium Driver Assist" at the market rate (currently $6K and $15K).

 

[gearchruncher]

2) Tesla pays out the $117 (or whatever small amount typical to class action suits) to the claimants to settle the suit
3) Tesla removes AP/EAP/FSD/FSD Beta from all the claimants vehicles. Claimants are returned to "Tesla Driver Assist" if their car was purchased after Autopilot was made standard.

This is flat out never going to happen in the legal system. You cannot simultaneously claim the damages to the owners is only $117 while then fully removing a feature someone paid $2K-$15K for. If Tesla wants to take the feature off the car, they will need to fully refund the purchase price, minus any value the users already got for it. Are they going to try and argue that if you bought FSD for $6K a year ago and still don't have any code on your car that you got $5883 worth of value out of it already?

Remember that if you bought an S or X 2016-2018, you can't have FSD without paying more money. FSD isn't compatible with MCU1, and Tesla won't upgrade your MCU1 to MCU2 for free, despite "all cars have the HW needed for FSD." $2250+tax. You really think these owners are only owed $117 and should have their FSD purchase revoked despite not having a single line of FSD code ever put on their cars and unlikely that they ever will? Tesla made that clear before the vehicle purchase?

For everyone here laughing at the case, I'd be interested to know why you think someone that bought FSD on October 19th, 2016 would have clearly known that 6 years later they were actually owed nothing, and how dare they try and do something about it?

 

[Electroman]

The way it should go is:

1) The suit succeeds and Tesla changes the name of FSD and AP to something more generic like other companies - "Tesla Driver Assist" (AP) and "Tesla Enhanced Driver Assist" (EAP) and "Tesla Premium Driver Assist" (FSD). All website verbiage and videos are re-created to indicate the current state of things, making it absolutely clear that "Tesla Premium Driver Assist" is a work-in-progress and does not have a release schedule.
2) Tesla pays out the $117 (or whatever small amount typical to class action suits) to the claimants to settle the suit
3) Tesla removes AP/EAP/FSD/FSD Beta from all the claimants vehicles. Claimants are returned to "Tesla Driver Assist" if their car was purchased after Autopilot was made standard.

FSD Beta continues development and advances as we've seen. Claimants can later re-purchase "Tesla Enhanced Driver Assist" or "Tesla Premium Driver Assist" at the market rate (currently $6K and $15K).

That is a fair way to get this monkey off Tesla haters talking points, and still continue to work on FSD, except not removing the capability from their cars

And once it actually reaches L4, they can change the name to FSD.

 

[DanCar]

I'm hoping the class action lawsuit considers a remedy of transferring not FSD to a newer vehicle.

 

[gearchruncher]

That is a fair way to get this monkey off Tesla haters talking points, and still continue to work on FSD, except not removing the capability from their cars

Tesla has had 5.92 years to offer refunds for FSD and "get this monkey off", yet they refuse. So a lawsuit it is. This is 100% on Tesla.

 

[gearchruncher]

I'm hoping the class action lawsuit considers a remedy of transferring not FSD to a newer vehicle.

Courts REALLY hate "specific performance" which is any non-monetary remedy. So this is highly unlikely. They want to calculate damages, and just get it paid out. Anything else is really the government forcing private citizens to do things, which isn't very American.

 

[Dewg]

This is flat out never going to happen in the legal system. You cannot simultaneously claim the damages to the owners is only $117 while then fully removing a feature someone paid $2K-$15K for. If Tesla wants to take the feature off the car, they will need to fully refund the purchase price, minus any value the users already got for it. Are they going to try and argue that if you bought FSD for $6K a year ago and still don't have any code on your car that you got $5883 worth of value out of it already?

Remember that if you bought an S or X 2016-2018, you can't have FSD without paying more money. FSD isn't compatible with MCU1, and Tesla won't upgrade your MCU1 to MCU2 for free, despite "all cars have the HW needed for FSD." $2250+tax. You really think these owners are only owed $117 and should have their FSD purchase revoked despite not having a single line of FSD code ever put on their cars and unlikely that they ever will? Tesla made that clear before the vehicle purchase?

For everyone here laughing at the case, I'd be interested to know why you think someone that bought FSD on October 19th, 2016 would have clearly known that 6 years later they were actually owed nothing, and how dare they try and do something about it?

This is going to be fun to watch in court. The issue will be the value of what people purchased. Some people here on TMC have a binary view of FSD. Either it's fully functional, and therefore worth the cost of the product, or it's worthless and the entire cost of FSD was purely "autosteer on city streets". The court will have to determine how much NoA, Auto Lane Change, Autopark, Summon, the FSD computer, and traffic light / stop control are worth, which were delivered with the purchase. Then calculate "Autosteer on City Streets", which was "coming soon" and determine if that portion is what will be returned to owners.

Telsa will likely show "good faith" via FSD Beta and the improvements in the software over time, demonstrating to the court that it has indeed been working on the software. The definition of "coming soon" will be hashed out, and an appropriate amount determined.

 

[gearchruncher]

The court will have to determine how much NoA, Auto Lane Change, Autopark, Summon, the FSD computer, and traffic light / stop control are worth, which were delivered with the purchase.

If you bought a 2016-2018 S or X, NoA, Auto Lane Change, Autopark, and Summon are part of EAP, not FSD.
Then, you didn't get traffic/stop light control until 2020, not "delivered with the purchase"
And now you have gotten nothing else unless you also buy a $2,250 MCU upgrade, and will never get anything.
The FSD computer is irrelevant, you were sold a car "with all hardware needed for FSD."- it has no value, it is needed to deliver the feature, and it was promised with the car purchase anyway.

 

[bradtem]

I'm hoping the class action lawsuit considers a remedy of transferring not FSD to a newer vehicle.

This is one of the more interesting claims, available to those who bought a new Tesla or sold or tried to sell their old one. If they paid some large fee for FSD with the statement that autosteer on city streets was coming "later this year" and it didn't arrive, and they decided to sell their car, but could only get $4K for it (or less) because it wasn't delivered, that might be a claim.

But the best anybody is likely to get is a refund (with interest/inflation.) And then they would need to buy EAP for $6K which is all many of them would get as a refund if they want the features of EAP. Otherwise for those who bought FSD on top of basic AP, the refund will mean back to basic AP.

If this lawsuit gets anywhere (which I doubt) I think mostly the lawyers will benefit. Surprise, surprise. Maybe Tesla changes the name, which they should do, but while it's a poor name, it's not a fraud, since they are pretty clear everywhere that FSD is not here yet and you are just pre-ordering it. Frankly, I think they should offer anybody who pre-orders anything a refund when it's late, but Tesla doesn't think that way. But my refund would be $2,000 which is not worth fussing over.

Tesla was foolish to say "coming later this year." They should have said, "Hoped for later this year, but no guarantees."

 

[boonedocks]

Don’t poo-poo glass action lawsuits. I actually got a couple hundred bucks back in the day on my 2017 Model S because it took Tesla forever to get any A/P features working on AP2 hardware.

I am being facetious about not poo-pooing the class acuity lawsuit, I personally hate them, but Tesla has had to pay out once already for selling something “promising” and not delivering.

 

[gearchruncher]

since they are pretty clear everywhere that FSD is not here yet and you are just pre-ordering it.

Nobody can say this unless you have a screenshots of the order pages from 2016 until now. Tesla was a lot less careful in the past. Hell,

 

[boonedocks]

Nobody can say this unless you have a screenshots of the order pages from 2016 until now. Tesla was a lot less careful in the past. Hell,

I have all the receipts including screen shots!!