Anyone refusing last software update - speed limit restriction?

[Topher]

you can be cited for "speeding" even when going less than the posted speed. I wonder how AP will adjust for that?

Pretty sure self-driving systems will be more conservative about bad conditions, than any cop who is used to *human* drivers.

which will really only delay people for about ~2 minutes (the delta between the speed limit and what they could have been driving at for those 10 minutes).

That isn't the way traffic works. If people following don't match speed, and keep distance, this can turn into a traffic jam with cars braking all the way to zero, and last for hours.

Thank you kindly.

 

[green1]

Quote from every driving instructor, driving license examiner, and police officer I've ever talked to:
"I expect you to drive legally, and safely at all times. When given the choice between the two, I expect you to drive safely."

Driving the exact speed limit when nobody else is, is NOT safe. Don't do it.

 

[lolachampcar]

topher,

You engage in an activity that is likely going to result in frustration. That frustration is likely going to result in bad behavior which may very well result in an accident.

If you do not see causation in the above, you truly live in an entitled world.

You are most certainly welcome.

 

[deonb]

topher,

You engage in an activity that is likely going to result in frustration. That frustration is likely going to result in bad behavior which may very well result in an accident.

If you do not see causation in the above, you truly live in an entitled world.

Let me try and get this straight...

In the same thread you're dissing Topher for suggesting people shouldn't follow the law, as well as me, for suggesting people should follow the law.

I'm going to need a Schrodinger's Tesla!

 

[lolachampcar]

Topher quoted a portion of one of my posts-
"but it would also be "highly" your own fault."

NO it really wouldn't.

Thank you kindly.

I believe I was responding to this which, again, I believe to be his challenging my claim that causing an accident to happen makes it your fault.

I think I got this right but please do let me know if I misunderstood.

I thought I was "dissing" the idea that going down the road side by side at a speed that backs up traffic so you can get attention for your cause is unsafe and childish. I do not think my comments were directed at breaking or not breaking the law in particular.

 

[EVie'sDad]

This is the single best argument against setting the TACC/Autosteer top speed to the posted speed limit signs. Please consider restoring the +5 MPH limit in update 8.1.2

 

[whitex]

NOTE: This is called a rolling blockade and is illegal. It's going to get you pulled over pretty quickly & fined for impeding traffic flow. Some kids did this in Canada in the 90's - and similarly in Atlanta in 2006 to protest ridiculously slow speed limits. But the fine is not a bad thing - send it to Tesla, or start a GoFundMe campaign and thankful other owners will chip in to pay it. You can probably also get a court to dismiss it with a good lawyer.

I'm curious, what does the judge say when you go to challenge such a ticket - "You should have been driving faster than speed limit" ?
I kind of would love to have something like that in writing, a judicial order to break the speed limit. Handy for next you get pulled over. "Yes officer, I was doing 80 in 60 zone, but the car behind me was too so I didn't want to block traffic. Here is an order from a judge that orders me to go as fast as it takes to not block traffic".

 

[JeffK]

This is the single best argument against setting the TACC/Autosteer top speed to the posted speed limit signs. Please consider restoring the +5 MPH limit in update 8.1.2

I'm pretty sure the moral of that story was to not use the left lane for speed limit driving. I agree and I wouldn't want to be behind self driving cars in the left lane either.

 

[whitex]

Quote from every driving instructor, driving license examiner, and police officer I've ever talked to:
"I expect you to drive legally, and safely at all times. When given the choice between the two, I expect you to drive safely."

Driving the exact speed limit when nobody else is, is NOT safe. Don't do it.

There are just opinions of individual people, be it police officers or driving instructors. It may even be common sense, however there is no law on the books that will say that (at least not in the US or Canada) - having visited the traffic court in my youth I learned that the hard way (and yes, talked to few lawyers about that too).

That said, since then I became older and arguably wiser. I learned that we are break laws every day, even though we may not be aware of it. There are so many laws on the books that there isn't a human alive that could tell you with absolute certainty whether or not you broke any laws in just 24hrs of your life. There are plenty of papers out there illustrating how almost everyone breaks the law every day of their life (traffic and copyright laws such as DMCA are on top of the list, but there are other large categories depending on jurisdiction). Federal government only estimates how many different federal crimes there are, but they cannot really count because nobody knows - and that's just federal! So the key is not to get caught, and if you are ever questioned by legal authorities, always shut up and ask for a lawyer. Don't believe me? This has been reiterated by supreme court justices and other people alike, here is a nice lecture from a law professor who explains why, with examples too.

 

[whitex]

To all who are refusing updates. I agree with you that Tesla is slowly making AP1 less useful. They are doing that because they realized it's nowhere as functional as they originally planned. I sympathize with you as I also have AP1 enabled car, I just gave up on AP1 being safely useful for anything else but stop and go highway traffic.

That said, there is one very important aspect of updates that is often ignored. Security. Your Tesla in an internet enabled device. By not applying updates, you also refuse any security fixes (unless Tesla force applies them, but I don't think that is happening). Remember the exploit on YouTube by the Korean team where they can take over your car via WiFi? It was fixed by Tesla before the video was made public, however if you are hanging on an old vulnerable software version, you leave yourself open. I'm sure there are other security fixed we'll never know about. This applies to any internet enabled device today. Heave you heard of LG smart TV's being infected with ransomeware recently - LG Smart TV Screen Bricked After Android Ransomware Infection . In the LG case it was because they stopped issuing updates, but by refusing to update your car you're creating a similar situation. What if you came one day to your car and found it has been infected with something like this (or worse)?

So, I completely sympathize with all who feel slided by AP1 slowly becoming more limited, however I would also strongly recommend not refusing updates.

 

[lolachampcar]

I believe the law in question is slower traffic keep right. You can most certainly tell there are no Germans on this thread

 

[tstafford]

The more I drive the car, the more irritated I'm becoming about this issue. +5MPH was fine. This is crap.

 

[mspohr]

The more I drive the car, the more irritated I'm becoming about this issue. +5MPH was fine. This is crap.

I sent a tweet to Elon about this a few days ago. No response. More tweets might help.
mark spohr‏ @mspohr
@elonmusk Latest "updates" to Autopilot (limit speed to speed limit) plus "hands on wheel" nags (my hands are on the wheel) make AP useless

 

[C_A_Braun]

My tweet to Mr Musk on Christmas Day - @elonmusk 3x last night on So Cal freeways AP reduced / restricted speed from 65 to 50. Very dangerous! What gives? SR14 / I5 / SR60.

 

[green1]

The more I drive the car, the more irritated I'm becoming about this issue. +5MPH was fine. This is crap.

By giving Tesla permission to make AP worse once (restricting to 5 over on some roads, and adding nags that didn't previously exist) Owners implicitly gave Tesla permission to make ANY change to the car that Tesla felt like doing. "+5 was fine" is actually the problem.

I know "slippery slope" is often stated as a fallacy, but this is an exact demonstration of the principle.

If you didn't want Tesla to make the changes, then you should have made it clear to Tesla that they aren't allowed to chose which features to disable or limit after sale.

 

[RogerHScott]

why Tesla would do this, if there were no outside requirement to do so? Customers aren't happy about it. Your boss isn't going to like it. So why do it if not for the NHTSA?

If Elon has hired himself the right lawyers they should be able to put greater fear of god into him than any harassment from the NHTSA.
If Tesla were being strong-armed into this by outside forces don't you think they'd be the first to point that out?

 

[lolachampcar]

Green


You were right.


You saw this coming.

 

[kavyboy]

Agreed, @green1 saw this coming. I initially thought he was being a bit, well, hyperbolic. Now I see he was entirely right.

 

[bonnie]

If Elon has hired himself the right lawyers they should be able to put greater fear of god into him than any harassment from the NHTSA.
If Tesla were being strong-armed into this by outside forces don't you think they'd be the first to point that out?

I guess that's one way to look at it. I'd prefer the way of Tesla and NHTSA are working closely together, as NHTSA figures out what appropriate regulations will be for the entire industry (and Tesla is in a prime position to help form those regulations). At least that's the way it works with other regulatory bodies that I've dealt with, when new technology is looming.

My assumption (obviously different from all the people who like to give negative feedback for a differing opinion) is that until additional safety data is available for the non-divided freeway use cases, Tesla was asked to err on the side of caution. Does it sound like there are some bugs? Oh yeah. So hopefully those of you who have experience that have reported what happened.

 

[jak]

</raises_hand> I am ignoring the daily reminders to update until they remove this new unsafe feature.