Ask Me Anything -- Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman Defends Picking the Benz

[ckessel]

Getting on the freeway hurt the range, running AC, turn signals, etc

You're really going to bring up using turn signals as a non-trivial source of energy use? That statement really stretches your credibility...

don't have a charger at my house...So, I decided to go down to the Supercharger station (25-miles from my house) and fill'er up. Leaving the station, I hit traffic and missed my appointment.
I suppose my point is that if your life isn't regimented, range anxiety is pretty real. That said, I know it's going to get better.

That's a definite factor. The Model S really needs to have home charging (30+ amp) to realize the true value of the car. Without it, the charging becomes a significant inconvenience rather than a positive feature (I hate having to take time out to fill up my wife's car).

I suppose my point is that if your life isn't regimented, range anxiety is pretty real. That said, I know it's going to get better.

Regimented? I suspect that was just a poor word choice, but it leaves the connotation that only people with incredibly static, predictable lives can own a Model S which is completely false. The problem, again, is your lack of a home charging option. I have been late to work in my gas car because I had to get gas on the way in. I've never had that in my S...it's full every morning.

 

[jonnylieberman]

I think it is valid. This is different from having a chime go off if your seatbelt isn't belted. This is just a nudge. It might only save a handful of lives, but so what? Lives are lives the way I see it.

And yes, if you have a totally regimented life and a relatively short commute, electric cars make a tons of sense. If you don't...

 

[Doug_G]

For instance, when you close the rear doors, the rear buckles extend. May not seem like much, but most people in China (the only car market on earth larger than ours) don't wear rear belts, and most Chinese buyers than can afford an S-Class are driven. This small thing will save lives. Another example, in the event of a rear collision, the S-Class cinches all the seat belts, vents the windows and locks up the brakes (turns out it's safer to let the crash structure absorb the full impact rather than having the car move forward -- counterintuitive but apparently true). The S-Class also has radar cruise that can not only fully brake the car, but can choose how it brakes based on if it's looking at a car or a person. If the car thinks it's going to hit a person, it goes into a full panic stop mode.

Anyhow, the Tesla isn't safer.

Extending the rear seat belts isn't going to make people put them on. You can lead a horse to water...

I don't trust active braking to work when you really need it. I had a G37 with that feature, and it depends on the adaptive cruise control, which didn't work in the rain, snow, or if there was slush on the sensor. Precisely the kind of poor driving conditions where you are likely to get in a bad accident. And at best in a crash it would only blunt the crash energy slightly. I do however trust the Model S crash structure and crumple zones (no engine) to protect occupants in the event of an impact.

As for Range anxiety, with a decent plug at home (something reviewers often do not have) there is no reason to run out of power. On a daily drive situation it is hard to run down the battery, even with a bunch of extra errands all over town, and on road trips a little bit of understanding goes a long way. The last time I rented an ICE it had terrible range on a tank, and I nearly ran out of gas because the only gas station in a remote area I was passing through had gone out of business. At the same time, I've never run out of range in four years of driving Teslas (Roadster then Model S) because the car gives you the information you need to make sensible decisions - if you listen to it.

I plugged the car in at 3:00 pm to 110 volts (I don't own an electric car -- I should, but don't have a charger at my house) and the next morning at 8:00 am I was SHOCKED to discover that I'd gained 27-miles of range.

See that's exactly what I mean. Almost no Tesla owners "get by" with a 110V plug. Most everyone has at least a NEMA 14-50 in their garage, which is 7X more powerful and more than adequate to get a full charge overnight. It's not a realistic situation. Tesla owners need an upgraded plug in the garage, period. With that plug you won't even bother looking at the gauge. Just on road trips.

 

[dsm363]

Jonny: you fell into the trap it seems a lot of reporters get into when the borrow the car for a few days to test. Very very few owners depend on 120V outlets as their sole source of recharging as it only adds about 3 miles of range added per hour of charging (which your found out). Some do get by with it but they know about that ahead of time and are fine with it. If you had installed a NEMA 14-50 in your garage like I'm estimating 80+% of owners do then you would have had a full charge in the morning.

I'm not saying there is isn't range anxiety from time to time on road trips but rarely on a normal day. Having annual fuel costs 80% less on a car that can out accelerate a S550 to 60 isn't bad either.

 

[jerjozwik]

The problem, again, is your lack of a home charging option. I have been late to work in my gas car because I had to get gas on the way in. I've never had that in my S...it's full every morning.

i told him he could use my 240 charger if he let me do a lap around the block. he said no

 

[dsm363]

I think it is valid. This is different from having a chime go off if your seatbelt isn't belted. This is just a nudge. It might only save a handful of lives, but so what? Lives are lives the way I see it.

And yes, if you have a totally regimented life and a relatively short commute, electric cars make a tons of sense. If you don't...

Many doctors, emergency workers and other people with unpredictable schedules own the Model S too and they probably don't have 9 to 5 schedules. Are you classifying their schedules as predicable? As was pointed out, you ran into trouble because of course didn't make sense for you to spend $300-$1,000+ to install a 240 V outlet just to test a car for a day or two. You thought you could get by with 120V outlet but quickly learned that would cut it. That is something you'd fix the very next day if that was your personal car of course.

 

[MikeC]

I plugged the car in at 3:00 pm to 110 volts (I don't own an electric car -- I should, but don't have a charger at my house) and the next morning at 8:00 am I was SHOCKED to discover that I'd gained 27-miles of range. I had an appointment at 11:00 am. But I needed range. So, I decided to go down to the Supercharger station (25-miles from my house) and fill'er up. Leaving the station, I hit traffic and missed my appointment.

Well, here's your problem. Adequate fueling capability is necessary to do a fair comparison. Real-world owners are going to have a full battery every morning with a 240V overnight charge. It's a paradigm shift and it's not surprising that the EV will lose when judged on an ICE-centric playing field.

 

[meloccom]

Hi Jonny,
I agree with most of your points in the video but as I am in the tech industry the "techyness" of the Model S appeals to me.
I can see the interior and driving aids of the S Class are impressive but the "Less is More" style of the Model S interior actually appeals to me more.
Then of course no mixing words here the S Class is fugly. So its a matter of priorities and mine are different to yours so all good.
The main thing that gets in my craw was your comment regarding range anxiety.
I have read many articles from motoring journalist who complain of range anxiety because they have nowhere to plug their car in at home.
By all means comment that to properly benefit from an EV you need decent home charging but don't go on about how it's the cars fault you were stressed all the time and you missed your appointment when its your fault for not preparing to own an EV.
Yes yes your just a poor journalist living on bread and water and cant afford a 240V power point at home, but given that the Model S is not the only EV in town shouldn't you as a professional install the equipment to do your job, one that included testing EV's in genuine ownership simulating situations?
Perhaps you can calim it as a buisiness expense on your next tax return? :smile:

 

[pgiralt]

I got in the car with an indicated 75-mile range .

Well, there's the problem. You can't use this as excuse to say that people who drive a Model S will have range anxiety on a daily basis. I drive a lot more than average. I'm probably going to have about 24k miles on my Model S when it's 1 year old. Rarely do I ever go below 100 miles of range available. The only time I remember it going into the 80's was one day that I forgot to plug in the night before. Even in that case I was able to make it home the second day with over 80 miles of range to spare. I stand behind my statement that 99% of people will not ever have to deal with range anxiety with the exception of road trips.

 

[Denarius]

I have an extremely unpredictable schedule and I have no problems. I do consulting work and every day I drive to a different place. Sometimes I get a call in the middle of the day (or night) and need to drive somewhere completely unplanned, sometimes hundreds of miles away. Due to my requirements I opted for the HPWC and dual chargers. Allowing me to quickly add range in one of those unplanned situations.

I've got over 20,000 miles on my Model S in 10 months of ownership and have not once been unable to take my Model S. Range anxiety simply isn't an issue unless you drive more than 200 miles in a day in an area without supercharging.

Your "range anxiety" experience was based on a situation that no Model S owner will be in, creating an unfair bias against the vehicle. The only people using 120v charging on a daily basis have a 10-20 mile round trip commute, hardly the norm.

 

[jerry33]

Well, there's the problem. You can't use this as excuse to say that people who drive a Model S will have range anxiety on a daily basis. I drive a lot more than average. I'm probably going to have about 24k miles on my Model S when it's 1 year old. Rarely do I ever go below 100 miles of range available. The only time I remember it going into the 80's was one day that I forgot to plug in the night before. Even in that case I was able to make it home the second day with over 80 miles of range to spare. I stand behind my statement that 99% of people will not ever have to deal with range anxiety with the exception of road trips.

This has been my experience as well. 24,000+ miles in 13.5 months. Seldom do I see numbers lower than 100.

 

[DaveT]

Hey Jonny, first thanks for coming on here to field questions. It’s a great idea. I thought your video was well-produced and you had some valid points but like others I generally disagreed with the final conclusion since you made it seem like more of an objective assessment rather than a subjective one.

If you were to judge both cars purely on performance and handling, the Model S is the clear winner. If you were to judge both cars purely on comfort and luxury, the S550 is the clear winner.

Now it gets tricky when people have mixed or differing values when dealing with cars, as this is the case for most people. Usually it’s not just about performance, or luxury, or tech, or looks, etc. Usually it’s some sort of combination and that’s what makes judging cars subjective.

And that’s where I disagreed with your review as you made it sound like objectively the S550 was a better car. I think if you qualified it and said personally you valued the luxury and comfort and that’s why you thought it was the better car, I would have no problems with the review. But to say objectively the S550 is better than the Model S is questionable at its best.

I would say the S-Class trumps the Model S in terms of safety. I know people like to tout the "5.4 stars" (whatever that means) that the Model S got, but the Benz actively avoids accidents. It also does all it can to mitigate accidents and injury. For instance, when you close the rear doors, the rear buckles extend. May not seem like much, but most people in China (the only car market on earth larger than ours) don't wear rear belts, and most Chinese buyers than can afford an S-Class are driven. This small thing will save lives. Another example, in the event of a rear collision, the S-Class cinches all the seat belts, vents the windows and locks up the brakes (turns out it's safer to let the crash structure absorb the full impact rather than having the car move forward -- counterintuitive but apparently true). The S-Class also has radar cruise that can not only fully brake the car, but can choose how it brakes based on if it's looking at a car or a person. If the car thinks it's going to hit a person, it goes into a full panic stop mode.

Anyhow, the Tesla isn't safer.

I think in terms of safety, it’s a tough car. If in an accident I’d rather be in a Tesla simply because the crumple zone in front is so expansive (lacking an engine) and also because the battery provides an extremely rigid frame that makes the car like a tank. I don’t think you’ll find many cars that will have better crash tests than the Model S.

But on the other hand, the S550 has active/passive safety and accident-avoidance features that the Model S doesn’t have (yet).

Your other points are all true, though you left out that the Mercedes is nicer to drive, has better seats, is built better (a few things didn't make the video but that red car I drove was glitchy) and apples to apples is just plain more desirable, a HUGE factor when it comes to car purchasing, especially at the $125K price point, where people are buying things they certainly don't need.

I think you’re again making a subjective assessment but claiming it to be objective when you say “apples to apples is just plain more desirable”. To many people (and the sales numbers in the U.S. agree) the Model is much more desirable than a S550.

Here’s a few features that the S550 can’t compete with:
1. Over-the-air software updates.
2. Upgradeable battery in the future. Will likely be able to switch out to a much larger battery pack in 8-10 years that will give much more range and might even add speed to the car
3. It’s zero emissions.
4. User interface (ie., internet radio, maps, navigation, etc).

One story -- at the beginning of the video we had both cars parked in the garage for my stand up introduction. Just before were started filming there were four guys in their 20s in the garage just before we started filming. You'd think that "the kids" would all be geeking out over the Tesla, but in fact three of them wouldn't get out of the S-Class. The interior is that good.

I totally get how good the interior of the S550 is. No doubt about it. But the Model S was never intended to compete with the S550 in terms of comfort and luxury. It was intended to be a drivers car and compete with the BMW 5/7 series. And I think it does that very well.

The S550 is super plush and super luxurious and will appeal to a certain set of buyers. But the Model S is sleek, super efficient, sporty, techy, etc and will appeal to a different set of buyers.

As much as I love the Tesla (and I hope that came across -- I think the Model S is fantastic and would LOVE to own one. Sadly, I write for a living...) I'd rather have the S-Class. It's a better car.

Again, you’re making the same mistake/error that I’ve been referring to this whole post - claiming a subjective judgement to be objective. The S550 might be a better car for you with your preferences/values but to claim it’s a better car objectively you really need to present a much better case than you have. As for many people the Model S is the better car for them based on their values of tech, performance, upgradeability, cargo room, environment, etc.

Hmm. Well, let me tell you about the week I had. We had the car at the test track. Sure, no one ever goes to the test track. But let's just call it an unexpected trip. Anyhow, I got in the car with an indicated 75-mile range and I had a 45-mile commute home in 90-degree weather. Of course, going three miles to the freeway ate up 6 miles of range. Getting on the freeway hurt the range, running AC, turn signals, etc. I sat there moving at 63-degrees with the cruise control set, sweating and miserable. I made it home with 18 miles of range left. To me this is worse than what you described about the gas gauge being on a quarter tank. Los Angeles is, after all, littered with gas stations. I plugged the car in at 3:00 pm to 110 volts (I don't own an electric car -- I should, but don't have a charger at my house) and the next morning at 8:00 am I was SHOCKED to discover that I'd gained 27-miles of range. I had an appointment at 11:00 am. But I needed range. So, I decided to go down to the Supercharger station (25-miles from my house) and fill'er up. Leaving the station, I hit traffic and missed my appointment.

I suppose my point is that if your life isn't regimented, range anxiety is pretty real. That said, I know it's going to get better.

You really need a 40amp plug at your house since 110v really isn’t going to cut it. Most owners will get this installed even prior to getting their car delivered. Also most owners are going to keep their cars charged above 200 mile range (for 85kwh owners) and rarely feel range anxiety as they probably rarely go under 50m range left. It’s really not cool that they handed off the car to you with just 75m range left.

 

[Beavis]

I would never, ever have paid more than $60,000 for a traditional car but I paid over $100,000 for the S. It is that fun to drive. I hear all the reasons for the decision but I guess we have completely different values.

 

[Grendal]

As many others have pointed out, yours was not the experience of a real owner. Yours was the experience of a reviewer. There is a difference. The fact that you were daily inconvenienced by having to go somewhere to charge the car created an unrealistic bias against the car.

Thanks for coming here. I appreciate your review and certainly appreciate your vote for MTCOTY.

 

[walla2]

Jonny, watch your own video. You hate the exterior of the MB. The gas mileage sucks. It's slower and performs worse. You liked the seats, a feeling of exuding wealth, and cramped cabin lights.

You are entitled to your opinion but how can those points make a MB a better choice? At least defend yourself in the video because you didn't.

 

[dsm363]

I think it is valid. This is different from having a chime go off if your seatbelt isn't belted. This is just a nudge. It might only save a handful of lives, but so what? Lives are lives the way I see it.

And yes, if you have a totally regimented life and a relatively short commute, electric cars make a tons of sense. If you don't...

I agree but the Tesla chimes like all cars do to encourage seat belt use. The auto moving the seat belt bit really annoyed many people so can't think of really any cars that still use that. I certainly wouldn't want it and always use my seat belt and so does everyone else in the car.

 

[jonnylieberman]

Gas mileage sucking, not a deal breaker. I didn't hate the exterior. In comparison to the Tesla, it's worse. It's not bad, however. Slower? Fine, but 0-60 mph in 4.7 seconds is what the British would call adequate. Performed worse? Um, 25.2 around the figure eight is excellent. The Model S just happens to be exceptional. I should also point out that if all I cared about was performance (or, all a Benz customer cared about) then they could get the S63. Besides, when you floor a Tesla (like I explained) you have to do accounting -- is this going to affect my life?

I liked the S550 better than the Model S. It's a more complete car. And frankly, a better car.

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I'm not explaining it right. All that happens is the buckles raise up about two inches. That's it. Not annoying at all, and makes putting on the rear seatbelts much easier.

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The Tesla DOES NOT chime if rear seat occupants are unbelted.

 

[dsm363]

Gas mileage sucking, not a deal breaker. I didn't hate the exterior. In comparison to the Tesla, it's worse. It's not bad, however. Slower? Fine, but 0-60 mph in 4.7 seconds is what the British would call adequate. Performed worse? Um, 25.2 around the figure eight is excellent. The Model S just happens to be exceptional. I should also point out that if all I cared about was performance (or, all a Benz customer cared about) then they could get the S63. Besides, when you floor a Tesla (like I explained) you have to do accounting -- is this going to affect my life?

I liked the S550 better than the Model S. It's a more complete car. And frankly, a better car.

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I'm not explaining it right. All that happens is the buckles raise up about two inches. That's it. Not annoying at all, and makes putting on the rear seatbelts much easier.

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The Tesla DOES NOT chime if rear seat occupants are unbelted.

Many of us gun the Model S at every opportunity. If you truly drive your entire day like you are at the track peeling out at every stoplight and drive 150+ miles in a normal day then yes, it is possible you might get in trouble with the range. Is that realistic for you and how you drive? There is zero (I repeat zero) impact on your daily life owning this car assuming you are driving under 200 miles in normal to moderate weather conditions. In horrible winter weather you might drop that number to 160 miles or so. If you are someone who regularly drives over that amount then I agree, the S550 would be a better car.

Again, outside the interior fit and finish and the ACC/braking issue I don't think you've made a very strong case for the S550 being a 'better car'. As others have said, the S550 can't compete in a frontal collision which is the most common type of fatal crash. Which car would you rather be in during an accident (assuming it was unavoidable or someone hit you)? Since you drive aggressively and get well below the average mpg, which car would you rather fuel on an annual basis? I'm sure the S550 is an awesome car with an impeccable interior but it's an awesome ICE which we know here has its limits.

I would encourage you to tell the people at Motor Trend to not give the Model S test car to reviewers unless they have proper charging at home (240V). If they do, they should be very clear that 120V outlets are really only useful if you drive less than maybe 30-50 miles in a day and the reviewer should be aware of that and preface their review with 'Since I don't own the car, I was only able to get by with 120V outlet which is very slow and something most owners wouldn't do'.

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Parents for generations have been responsible for making sure their kids and other people are responsible for plugging in. Pinning your review on a chime as a big safety feature isn't that strong of a case. Surviving actually getting hit is much more important. Assuming the hardware is there, Tesla could always add that feature in the future or at least at the rear seat chimes in future cars. If things like that draw in the Mercedes S buyers then I'm sure Tesla will add that down the road.

I also appreciate you coming here to discuss your review. Thanks.

 

[ckessel]

Besides, when you floor a Tesla (like I explained) you have to do accounting -- is this going to affect my life?

While I appreciate you came here into the lion's den, with that statement you've lost all credibility with me.

 

[dsm363]

And yes, if you have a totally regimented life and a relatively short commute, electric cars make a tons of sense. If you don't...

We have a few members here with 150 mile a day commutes for example. I would hardly call that a short commute but again, they have proper charging in their garage. I also would never get a Model S with that commute if I only had 120V outlet at home (you couldn't go to work the next day because the charging was so slow).