Auto steer Not ready for prime time

[saint9121]

I was just driving from Baltimore to Philly on autopilot over the weekend.
First time doing so in HEAVY rain.
My Fiance's parents (who are not Tesla fans) were concerned with my use of autopilot in the rain but I couldn't have disagreed more.
AP was able to detect cars ahead and slow down before I was able to see them myself.

AP definitely nags you to give feedback too often if your hands aren't on the wheel.
I've found if I adjust the steering wheel so that I can comfortably rest my left elbow on the door ledge and hold the bottom of my steering wheel I don't get those alerts since i'm providing semi consistent force on the wheel during AP.

 

[jkoya]

The more I use the EAP, the more I'm starting to trust it. Surprised at how well it works in the rain and fog.

 

[Rockster]

You're never supposed to not be touching the wheel on EAP.

Personally I find if I just leave my left hand resting on the wheel at about 7 o'clock, essential arm on my lap, I never get nags.

This.

I drive hundreds of miles at a time and never get a nag. Between our two Teslas and more than 100,000 miles driven and 60 to 70% of it on autopilot I've been nagged fewer than a total of ten times.

I think the fear and apprehension surrounding autopilot, especially among those new to the feature, arises from the misconception that AP should be the primary decision maker in controlling the vehicle. AP is foremost a driver assist feature, not a safety feature. Any time AP's decision differs from mine, AP disengages because my hand on the wheel won't let AP go where it's not supposed to go. As a result of my always being alpha, when AP twitches in the wrong direction my response is a matter of fact "nope. you're not going there." It's not, "OMG! Autopilot made an error and almost killed me!"

 

[voip-ninja]

I have been extremely critical of AP but I was much more impressed with it when I used it to do a 100 mile round trip to a Christmas party over the past weekend.

I used Navigate on AP and I can only think of three things that were problematic enough that I recall them.

1. There was an accident on the left side of the road which closed the lane we were in down. I put the blinker on to tell the car to try to get over... it did a pretty good job but then thought the car behind and to the right was too close and it chickened out and disengaged so I had to complete the merge on my own.

2. One time when initiating a lane change to get around slower moving traffic the car sped up, went into the left lane, veered back into the right lane and back into the left lane... that was a little unnerving.

3. The car doesn't plan exits properly when it's in traffic and NoA is enabled. I found that it is more than happy to race right by the exit with either no notification of the exit or a very late notification to get over which at highway speeds typically won't leave enough time. At 60mph the car is going to cover a mile a minute and the absolute minimum it should start getting over and prepare to exit is 1-2 miles out. Maybe this is a residual artifact of being programmed by terrible CA drivers who drive in the left lane until the last possible moment and then bomb through 3-4 lanes of heavy traffic to try to make their exit.

Overall I was much more impressed than I've been in all of my other uses. It is definitely continuing to improve.

I noticed that my stress level after each part of the drive was much much lower than if I had just completed an hour+ drive in traffic myself.

 

[derotam]

Wait is everyone trying to say that the manual doesn't say that "Autosteer is a BETA feature" and that "Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times"? Ohh wait, it does say exactly that.

It is an evolving feature, just like the Auto-wipers, navigate on autopilot, summon, dashcam, and TACC.

 

[voip-ninja]

Wait is everyone trying to say that the manual doesn't say that "Autosteer is a BETA feature" and that "Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times"? Ohh wait, it does say exactly that.

It is an evolving feature, just like the Auto-wipers, navigate on autopilot, summon, dashcam, and TACC.

Autosteer has been in Beta now for years. It might never be out of Beta since Tesla can use the Beta disclaimer as a get-out-of-jail free card to avoid responsibility if something goes wrong.

The fact that you must keep your hands on the wheel to avoid autosteer from shutting down on you should make it clear to anyone that you have to be involved in the process.

Autosteer is in a tough place today. It is just good enough that I can see where drivers get overconfident in its capabilities and get in over their heads.

 

[derotam]

Autosteer has been in Beta now for years. It might never be out of Beta since Tesla can use the Beta disclaimer as a get-out-of-jail free card to avoid responsibility if something goes wrong.

The fact that you must keep your hands on the wheel to avoid autosteer from shutting down on you should make it clear to anyone that you have to be involved in the process.

Autosteer is in a tough place today. It is just good enough that I can see where drivers get overconfident in its capabilities and get in over their heads.

They don't need the Beta disclaimer to avoid liability, there are warnings in the manual. If it was about avoiding liability, everything would be labeled Beta.

 

[voip-ninja]

They don't need the Beta disclaimer to avoid liability, there are warnings in the manual. If it was about avoiding liability, everything would be labeled Beta.

So is the Beta disclaimer to tell customers that it's a work in progress that's going to get better over time and they should be patient when it doesn't work well? Have Tesla gone on the record to state what their reasoning is for Beta disclaimer?

Because if that's your yardstick then pretty much every piece of computer software made in the last 10+ years should carry a beta moniker for the life of the product.

10X if the software under discussion is a MSFT or Google product.

 

[derotam]

So is the Beta disclaimer to tell customers that it's a work in progress that's going to get better over time and they should be patient when it doesn't work well? Have Tesla gone on the record to state what their reasoning is for Beta disclaimer?

Because if that's your yardstick then pretty much every piece of computer software made in the last 10+ years should carry a beta moniker for the life of the product.

10X if the software under discussion is a MSFT or Google product.

I take issue with people saying "not ready for prime time" when the feature is a Beta feature.

And while I understand people not necessarily understanding what the car needs to prevent the nags, I also take issue with people complaining about nags "3x a minute" because it isn't that hard to hold the steering wheel in a way to prevent the nags. I wrote a bunch more here but deleted it cause it doesn't really matter. If the nag is coming 3x a minute then you are doing something wrong, or you are trying to be too engaged thereby negating any counter force.

 

[JeffK]

Have Tesla gone on the record to state what their reasoning is for Beta disclaimer?

Yes, Elon mentioned many times they consider a feature beta until it reaches so many miles of use.

 

[Knightshade]

Have Tesla gone on the record to state what their reasoning is for Beta disclaimer?

Yes, they have.


Elon Musk on Twitter

Misunderstanding of what "beta" means to Tesla for Autopilot: any system w less than 1B miles of real world driving

He later followed up that with further clarification-

Use of word ‘beta’ is explicitly so that drivers don’t get comfortable. It is not beta software in the standard sense

(bold added)

Good bit more discussion around when this stuff was originally tweeted (and why the fact they just recently announced they hit 1 billion miles in AP might not mean they're ready to drop the beta label yet) here-

What Does Tesla Autopilot "Beta" Mean? | CleanTechnica

 

[mmccking]

I don't disagree with the OP's analysis, it's not perfect. However, I disagree with the title of his thread...as a beta, it's been a billion+ miles into prime time...they don't restrict who can buy it based on IQ or any other qualification than financial...just like any other prime time product.

 

[chronopc]

I am on a 30 day trial of the auto steer so I took the opportunity to try it out on a 700+ mile round trip from Phoenix to San Diego. The route is nearly all interstate 75mph in Az and 70mph in Ca. Observations:
1. The "put pressure on the wheel" occurs about 3x/mile a real pia
2. When you go by a ramp entering the freeway and you lose the right lane line the car will veer to the right trying to center itself in the temporary extra wide lane. Unsettling, especially for the passenger who is seeing the car move right toward the shoulder.
3. Lane change was the only real excitement of the trip. Sometimes the car would go into a wobble moving left then right over and over not knowing if it was safe to change lanes. Only way to stop it was grab wheel and disengage. The color of the lane marker seemed to set it off. One time this happened with freshly striped black asphalt. This alone was a deal breaker.
4. When it did successfully change lanes, I found the rate of change too fast. Not good for tire wear and uncomfortable for passengers.
5. Self steering was very good when not changing lanes as long as there were visible stripes on each side of the road.

Don't know if Tesla engineers monitor this site or data automatically uploads to Tesla when a failure occurs but these items need to be addressed. It's fun to try out these new features but there comes a point where you have to question using your customer base as beta testers.

1. There are many ways to hold the wheel for the nag to not show up at all. I like having the frequent nag on long, boring drives since it helps me stay awake.
2. This was a huge problem when I first got the car. I've noticed it's gotten a lot better. Still can use some improvements but it's headed in the right direction.
3. Lane change works great for me. It does abort if a car is fast approaching and it doesn't feel safe.
4. I haven't personally witness it being too fast. For me it's a good speed. I would definitely be a lot faster if I was in a rush.
5. I have noticed that it doesn't really need very good visible stripes. There are times I couldn't even see the lane markings, but it was able to follow the path just fine.

I'm not sure if EAP adapts as you use it more. From my experience it is much better now than when I first got it, but I've used it quite a bit. I've gone 8k miles in this car and about 7k have been on EAP.

 

[chronopc]

My feeling is that anything (a safety device in this case) that works most of the time, but not all of the time .... is hazardous.

So I guess people shouldn't be allowed to do anything until we figure out how to prevent everyone from making any mistakes?

 

[chronopc]

I was just driving from Baltimore to Philly on autopilot over the weekend.
First time doing so in HEAVY rain.
My Fiance's parents (who are not Tesla fans) were concerned with my use of autopilot in the rain but I couldn't have disagreed more.
AP was able to detect cars ahead and slow down before I was able to see them myself.

AP definitely nags you to give feedback too often if your hands aren't on the wheel.
I've found if I adjust the steering wheel so that I can comfortably rest my left elbow on the door ledge and hold the bottom of my steering wheel I don't get those alerts since i'm providing semi consistent force on the wheel during AP.

I was very impressed at how EAP handled heavy rain and heavy fog. There were instances where I could barely see. It was reassuring for me to have EAP in those situations.

 

[voip-ninja]

I've had my 30 day trial of EAP for a week. V9 is better than V8, but there's more work to do. As others have said, when the road lines get wide due to a merging pair of lanes, EAP tries to center up on the outer lines with no inner dashed line to follow, then once it sees the center line and decides which lane it wants to be in, it jerks into that lane.

I'm looking for the day when EAP can handle a 4 way stop sign.

At higher speeds you have to touch the wheel more often. At 60 mph it's about a 23 second gap, at 80+ mph its 13 seconds. At slower speeds under 50 mph, it's more like 40 seconds. The nag is a pain. Using turn signals also counts for touching the wheel.

EAP is for highway use so I think when Tesla eventually makes the system aware of signs and traffic lights it will be differentiated into early features for those who paid for FSD.

 

[ConcordeSST]

I'm someone that purchased both EAP and FSD. I have not yet had the chance to do a lot of very long drives so my opinion should be taken with that in mind. That said, I do understand to use it on the highway and do not judge it for unexpected behavior on city streets. My take on it so far is that it does unexpected and scary things therefore I do not trust it at all. Because I'm at the stage where I do not trust it, I do not find it relaxing because I'm always at a heightened state of alert using it. I feel things like this need to be said, considered by Tesla, and used as feedback to improve the system. It seems very unpopular to post comments like this, but I want it to be clearly understood that I want autopilot to succeed and I know it will never get there without this learning process. So, I applaud all of you that use this every day and submit bug reports to Tesla. With each and every software release, I try it again to see if it is better. I think @Garlan Garner said it right, in that part of this hesitation is due to the car not driving like ME, therefore it scares me. Here are some of the things it has done to me (Note at all times I have both hands on the wheel and am paying careful attention. Also, I'm not old, but I'm not 25 anymore either, so I sometimes can't think fast enough to process what is happening when EAP fails):

1. Hard and very unexpected phantom brake on the highway with no other traffic around and no obstacles.
2. Very hard jerk to into a lane when using Navigate on Autopilot (NOA) and taking an exit ramp that split into two lanes. Car weaved indecisively between lanes and rather than select one gracefully it dived hard into the right lane.
3. Seconds after #2, the car screamed to take immediate control (with the red steering wheel icon) while navigating the gentle bend of the exit ramp from one freeway to another (still on NOA). This was at night, but with clear lane lines.
4. Just this weekend when using NOA, I encountered a split where my lane divided into two and the car had to go to the right to stay on the correct interstate. It did this, but only after a significant deceleration from 60 to 40 when no deceleration was needed. This sudden deceleration really increased my chance of being rear-ended. While still thinking about what the heck had just happened, I must have nudged the wheel too much and disengaged autopilot. The problem here was I didn't know this had happened (mind still processing the previous surprise) and the car started to veer left into the barrier. I was attentive, so I noticed this and took control. Not hearing the disengage beep, I realized it had previously disengaged. The thing with the beeps though is they are so common and subtle that my mind starts to ignore them.
5. When on NOA, the car waits forever sometimes to take an exit and then doesn't seem to notice accelerating traffic in the exit lane, so it has tried to cut people off.
6. It drives me crazy (as the OP mentioned) that it constantly tries to veer right to fill the wider lane at the end of an on-ramp. I find this dangerous as it puts me right where a car might be if they were trying to merge at the last minute.
7. In stop and go traffic where it is supposed to shine, I find it only valuable in the left or middle lane as it does not handle merging traffic well in my opinion. Thing is, I like to drive in the right lane so I don't have to fight multiple lanes of traffic to exit when I need to.
8. I find myself having to disengage and reengage it so often (mainly due to 6 and 7) that the constant dinging annoys the crap out of my passengers.
9. Often the follow distance in recent updates does not seem to be respected. If I set it to as low as one car spacing, it seems to maintain two car spacing or more. If the car in front of me is going below my set speed, it correctly slows down, but then takes a very long time to accelerate if the car in front of me accelerates (this is even on one car spacing). It takes so long (I haven't timed it, but it feels like more than 10 seconds to react) that the cars behind me start to try and pass me.
10. The really weird behavior it does with regards to lane changes (partial lane changes then veering back to the original lane) is a bit embarrassing. This bothers me because I feel like other ICE drivers around me are thinking, "Oh there's another Tesla idiot. Not buying one of those!" I don't want that because I love my car and want to sell more people on Tesla. The car is a joy to drive when driving manually.
11. I really wish there could be the option of verbal cues, especially when using NOA. I don't like trying to read the message on screen when I'm simultaneously trying watch the road and my mirrors to double-check everything it is doing.

So, all that said, I still believe in autopilot and think this will get much better when the FSD hardware is actually in use. However, I consider myself a very technical person so I am always trying it out in controlled conditions. Others won't be so careful and I fear they will either trust it too much or have it fail and never want to try it again. To others reading this, I realize many of you won't have experienced some of this and may think EAP is great for your use cases, but please don't dismiss me or shut me down. I think discussion of EAP's flaws is healthy and needs to happen for it to get better.

 

[electricar]

I think the free trials will occur every so often in the future. The beta autosteer isn't worth the money to me now but a future version might be. I doubt there is much ( or any ) cost to Tesla for the free trial so if someone were to like a future version and purchased it that money would go straight to the bottom line.

 

[chronopc]

I really wish there could be the option of verbal cues, especially when using NOA. I don't like trying to read the message on screen when I'm simultaneously trying watch the road and my mirrors to double-check everything it is doing.

What audio cues would you like?

There currently are some such as when NoA engages/disengages and when it suggests a lane change.

 

[swotam]

I just got my Model 3 two weeks ago and personally I think EAP is great! Yes, there are things it doesn't handle as well as a human would, and you definitely need to keep an eye on what the car is doing, but for the most part I can't imaging not having this feature enabled on my Tesla. Right from the time I decided I wanted one, I knew it had to have EAP. That said, to each their own and all that.

I don't get too many nag warnings but I always have my hands on the wheel around the 4:00 and 8:00 position. Left arm on the door armrest, right arm on the center console. As long as I'm putting a slight amount of pressure on the wheel, or offering a slight amount of resistance when the car adjusts the wheel, I don't get nagged.

Any time the lane markers disappear on one side of the car you can expect EAP to get confused, so you have to be prepared to take over in those situations. The only one I've run into frequently in my neck of the woods is when the highway splits left and right and the car doesn't know which way to go when the markers on one side disappear.

Lane change seems to work well as long as the car has sufficient space to do so safely. I suspect that follow distance might have something to do with this. I personally haven't had any issues with the speed of lane changes, and I've only had it "abort" once and swerve back into the original lane when a car pulled into the lane I was changing into midway through the lane change itself.

I'm very happy with it. It's great for stop and go traffic, or for those times there's some sort of kid-related disaster in the back seat and you need briefly turn your head to establish order or calculate how much paper towel is going to be required... It's nice to know that the car isn't going to plow into the back of the guy who decided to slam his brakes on at that exact moment.