Auto wipers no longer mandatory when using AP?

[Kevy Baby]

Meanwhile, I am on software version 2023.32.9 (basic AP only) with the wipers still off while on AP, and the car is offering to download and install 2023.38.6.
Can anyone confirm or deny that the auto wipers will still remain off while using AP with that software version? I'm hesitant to update as I don't want the auto wipers forced on me again.

I am on 2023.38.6 and have EAP. For me, the wipers have been fine (since the version or two before even) with virtually no dry wipes, even in one place where I had them all the time. I think the only dry wipes I've had were the last time I posted about no dry wipes

Also, the one thing you have now and will continue to have is that whenever you go on AP, it will activate the Auto Wipe Status. Remember that the issue is that the Auto Wipe gives "false positives", causing the wipers to sweep when they are not needed. Whether Auto Wipe is engaged whenever AP is engaged is a separate discussion: I don't agree with the assumed logic behind it, but now that the false wipe issue has been virtually eliminated (for me), I don't care as much.

 

[UncleCreepy]

This must have been a glitch. I drove in the rain last night and the windshield wipers were back to auto without any possibility to turn them off. I'm not going to pay $800 for a third party module to override this nonsense. Maybe I'll take a look at the pin layout and see if I can install a good old-fashioned mechanical switch.

 

[Kevy Baby]

...the windshield wipers were back to auto without any possibility to turn them off.

(Emphasis mine)

I don't think there has been a point (since this started) where wipers didn't go into Auto mode when AP is engaged.

 

[UncleCreepy]

(Emphasis mine)

I don't think there has been a point (since this started) where wipers didn't go into Auto mode when AP is engaged.

See the first post on this thread.

 

[TunaBug]

Not sure when this started. I noticed it while running 2024.44.30.8.

I do not have EAP or FSD, just plain autopilot. When I enable AP while the wipers are off it still changes them to Auto. However, I can then change them back to Off. The change works either via the UI, or via the left scroll wheel while the UI is up.

Although this is an improvement I still wish they would just stay off, which was the behavior long ago. So this improvement is definitely in the "turn down the suck" category and not an actual feature.

 

[dcfas]

Not sure when this started. I noticed it while running 2024.44.30.8.

I do not have EAP or FSD, just plain autopilot. When I enable AP while the wipers are off it still changes them to Auto. However, I can then change them back to Off. The change works either via the UI, or via the left scroll wheel while the UI is up.

Although this is an improvement I still wish they would just stay off, which was the behavior long ago. So this improvement is definitely in the "turn down the suck" category and not an actual feature.

Ditto. I thought it was a glitch that the wipers turned on when AP was turned on. I get it that auto wipers would be the default, by it has been dry wiping. Does this happen now for everyone and you have to switch to off, or is this indeed a glitch?

 

[TunaBug]

Ditto. I thought it was a glitch that the wipers turned on when AP was turned on. I get it that auto wipers would be the default, by it has been dry wiping. Does this happen now for everyone and you have to switch to off, or is this indeed a glitch?

I had an update a couple of weeks ago that has caused a large increase in dry wiping. It would have been one in the 2024.2 series. Probably 2024.2.3, although I have installed 2024.2.6 and 2024.2.7 which are just as bad.

 

[B_E_V]

Unfortunately, it appears to me that when Tesla thought they were training an automatic wiper neural network to detect rain, they were really training it to detect clouds.

It is a classic mistake. Back in the 1990's when I was studying Computer Science we were taught about an early neural network that was trained to distinguish between pictures of partially concealed Soviet and NATO tanks. The researchers achieved 100% accuracy! However, when presented with a new set of pictures the neural network's choices appeared random. They finally figured out that all the training pictures for one side's tanks were on sunny days, and all the training pictures of the other side's tanks were on cloudy days. So what they had really trained was a neural network which totally ignored the tanks, but was great at distinguishing pictures of sunny weather from cloudy weather. Apparently this remains a real problem when training neural networks.

AP/FSD wanting automatic wipers on makes sense. Just be glad they finally let you turn wipers off without turning AP/FSD off. When feeling optimistic, what I hope is that Tesla added the option for human drivers to turn OFF automatic wipers while running AP/FSD so that Tesla can automatically collect a large training set of false positives when humans turn off the wipers after a dry wipe that Tesla can then use for retraining their neural network. When feeling pesimistic, I suspect allowing us to turn off wipers was just a quick hack to minimize customer complaints.

 

[MrFixit1094]

Unfortunately, it appears to me that when Tesla thought they were training an automatic wiper neural network to detect rain, they were really training it to detect clouds.

I was under the impression that Tesla had not yet rolled out the auto-wiper neural network. They seem to be claiming that the emerging neural version was going to finally yield a solution to this fiasco. But, as you say with your excellent example, 'AI' is fraught with difficulty.

It seems to me that it is not possible to train a neural network unless you have valid training data (which has to include learning from human actions). If the damned system essentially disables human action (by forcing the existing crappy Auto mode), then it is not learning the right things... Garbage in, garbage out, and it will just train itself to perpetuate the bad behavior !

 

[Aellinsar]

I had an update a couple of weeks ago that has caused a large increase in dry wiping. It would have been one in the 2024.2 series. Probably 2024.2.3, although I have installed 2024.2.6 and 2024.2.7 which are just as bad.

I've been getting a lot of dry wipes recently, too.

 

[BigNick]

Unfortunately, it appears to me that when Tesla thought they were training an automatic wiper neural network to detect rain, they were really training it to detect clouds.

It is a classic mistake. Back in the 1990's when I was studying Computer Science we were taught about an early neural network that was trained to distinguish between pictures of partially concealed Soviet and NATO tanks. The researchers achieved 100% accuracy! However, when presented with a new set of pictures the neural network's choices appeared random. They finally figured out that all the training pictures for one side's tanks were on sunny days, and all the training pictures of the other side's tanks were on cloudy days. So what they had really trained was a neural network which totally ignored the tanks, but was great at distinguishing pictures of sunny weather from cloudy weather. Apparently this remains a real problem when training neural networks.

AP/FSD wanting automatic wipers on makes sense. Just be glad they finally let you turn wipers off without turning AP/FSD off. When feeling optimistic, what I hope is that Tesla added the option for human drivers to turn OFF automatic wipers while running AP/FSD so that Tesla can automatically collect a large training set of false positives when humans turn off the wipers after a dry wipe that Tesla can then use for retraining their neural network. When feeling pesimistic, I suspect allowing us to turn off wipers was just a quick hack to minimize customer complaints.

A few years of training computers to do stuff has nothing on millions of years' worth of evolution of the hairless ape brain.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Unfortunately, it appears to me that when Tesla thought they were training an automatic wiper neural network to detect rain, they were really training it to detect clouds.

It is a classic mistake. Back in the 1990's when I was studying Computer Science we were taught about an early neural network that was trained to distinguish between pictures of partially concealed Soviet and NATO tanks. The researchers achieved 100% accuracy! However, when presented with a new set of pictures the neural network's choices appeared random. They finally figured out that all the training pictures for one side's tanks were on sunny days, and all the training pictures of the other side's tanks were on cloudy days. So what they had really trained was a neural network which totally ignored the tanks, but was great at distinguishing pictures of sunny weather from cloudy weather. Apparently this remains a real problem when training neural networks.

AP/FSD wanting automatic wipers on makes sense. Just be glad they finally let you turn wipers off without turning AP/FSD off. When feeling optimistic, what I hope is that Tesla added the option for human drivers to turn OFF automatic wipers while running AP/FSD so that Tesla can automatically collect a large training set of false positives when humans turn off the wipers after a dry wipe that Tesla can then use for retraining their neural network. When feeling pesimistic, I suspect allowing us to turn off wipers was just a quick hack to minimize customer complaints.

The dry wipes I noticed is when crossing under a bridge where there are particular light patterns (sunlight flickering in and out through the bridge supports), so I doubt it has to do with clouds.

 

[dcfas]

My car dry wipes now every time I turn on cruise or AP. Clear, dry windshield - dry wipes.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Still been months since I have had a dry wipe.

 

[UncleCreepy]

Still been months since I have had a dry wipe.

I have them pretty much every day. I made it a habit to turn auto wipers off as soon as I engage TACC. I just wish they'd leave the setting alone when I engage AP. If the wipers were really necessary, then why is AP even available while I'm driving with my wipers turned off? That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I have them pretty much every day. I made it a habit to turn auto wipers off as soon as I engage TACC. I just wish they'd leave the setting alone when I engage AP. If the wipers were really necessary, then why is AP even available while I'm driving with my wipers turned off? That doesn't make any sense to me.

It's the same deal as all the auto-on functions. The manufacturer would greatly prefer it to be on, but they allow turning it off for a single drive just as a exceptional case and to ensure that it is an affirmative action that you want it off. If people would stop blaming AP and suing Tesla when they get into an accident, maybe the strictness will change, but I doubt that will ever end.