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AutoPilot speed restrictions...what do you think

Discussion in 'Model S' started by boonedocks, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. mmccord

    mmccord Member

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    Certainly you didn't miss this part?

    HandsOn.jpg
     
  2. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    There is a huge difference between TACC and AP.

    With TACC, drivers can take their feet off the accelerator and let the car maintain speed, but the drivers must continue to steer the car.

    With AP, the driver really isn't doing anything other than maintaining some presence so the software can verify there is still a human that is SUPPOSED to be paying attention at the steering wheel. Though as people get used to AP working well, over time, there is a significant risk that the driver assumes the AP is working correctly, and isn't really paying attention - and if there is a need for the driver to re-take control, the response time may be too long to avoid an incident.

    There will be accidents with AP operating - and it will be interesting to see how the accidents are handled, and if Tesla adds restrictions on the AP usage.
     
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  3. Alex D

    Alex D Member

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    All I can say is that this new "exact speed limit" when on AP is pretty annoying. I am still driving the car, I am still responsible, let me handle the speed. I was perfectly fine with +5 miles over the speed limit as this is how most cars on the road today are driving. And if traffic is slower AP/TACC is slowing down to traffic ahead anyway.
    Now with the new AP speed restriction I see myself as a danger for my surrounding traffic participants. This could get ugly really quick in certain conditions.

    We have a setting that allows us to set how much we want to go over the speed limit for a reason. Different areas require different settings. Let AP take over the settings we set there and act accordingly.

    I'm really frustrated about this.
     
  4. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Voltage makes me tingle.

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    I don't have that speed restriction yet but when I do I predict it will suck and take even more away from autopilot.

    The nags are WAY too frequent already on surface streets (where I have found it to be very usable), and restricting us to the speed limit will make it unusable. Definitely will make me an unhappy camper.
     
  5. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

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    Just refuse the update. There is no reason to accept such a unilateral change from Tesla. (slipped in without documentation btw!)
     
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  6. TSLA Pilot

    TSLA Pilot Member

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    Yes, this is an amazing feature I've discovered by accident, if you'll excuse the pun. The first time I had this happen I was stunned that AP 1.0 was released with such a massive safety defect. Really, a car that will swerve into oncoming traffic, or off the road? Wow.

    Multiple complaints to my local SC resulted in nothing, but now that so many others have reported it, I've become more accustomed to what Tesla expects of us as Beta testers . . . and it's a lot.
     
  7. sdorn

    sdorn Director of Awesome

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    I believe he quoted the section he quoted intentionally to show the irony of this whole thread given that the instruction manual clearly says you are not supposed to use AP at all other than on highways and limited access roads. If people were following the manual, this thread wouldn't have a reason to exist.
     
  8. mmccord

    mmccord Member

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    No, I'm pretty sure it was directed at me (he quoted my post and all). The difference is: I'm ignoring something in the manual because I have tested it myself and find it safe. He is ignoring something in the manual and calling the entire feature-set unsafe. He called it 'Instant death' and said that he would 'never use it'. I, for one, am glad he won't use this feature, because he seems unable to grasp the concept of using it safely.
     
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  9. BerTX

    BerTX Supporting Member

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    I always keep my hands on the wheel. I don't have any idea where you got the idea that I do not.

    I said it was dangerous to use Auto-steer on **HILLY** non-divided roads. TSLA Pilot agrees with me in post #26 above and calls it a "massive safety defect".

    You said I should keep my hands on the wheel and RTFM. As sdorn points out in post #26 above, I found that the suggestion to RTFM odd, since the manual clearly states not to use it on non-divided roads at all.

    You respond that you choose to ignore the manual, but that I should read and follow what it says? I'm confused.

    And done with this.
     
  10. mmccord

    mmccord Member

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    If you're going to complain about the functionality, yes, you should try following the instructions.

    I'm not the one complaining about it.
     
  11. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    My opinion is that Tesla should continue to remove as much functionality from AP as they possibly can. The more the better.

    And yes, I actually am serious.

    It seems that so far the vast majority of Tesla owners are willing to accept anything Tesla does. Tesla has been given a free pass to ignore promises made before delivery, and remove functionality at will, and they have used it repeatedly with almost nobody saying a word. I'm now genuinely curious to see if that "free pass" has any limits at all. I want to see if there is actually a point at which people will actually get fed up, is there a straw that will break the camel's back?

    Owners have nobody but themselves to blame for this. If you didn't speak up to Tesla when they rolled out the restrictions in 7.1, and you haven't complained to Tesla that they didn't deliver on any of the promises they made when advertising AP initially, then YOU are the problem.
     
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  12. SomeJoe7777

    SomeJoe7777 Marginally-Known Member

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    With regards to this specific issue (limitation of autosteer to the speed limit on non-divided roads), please specify exactly what promise Tesla is breaking.

    As far as I know, no such promise was ever made with regard to non-divided roads. Tesla's (read: Elon's) original claim for AutoPilot was "hands free, on-ramp to off-ramp". To me, that implies autosteer/autodrive functionality on multi-lane, divided, controlled-access highways. Any other type of road, including single-lane, non-divided, or non-controlled-access (i.e. no entrance and exit ramps) was never promised to have any autosteer functionality whatsoever.

    Due to the implementation of autosteer in the various software versions since 7.0, autosteer has happened to work outside the "on-ramp to off-ramp" conditions. And yes, some of that functionality that happened to work in the earlier versions has now been removed. But I don't think you can accuse Tesla of breaking a promise for this specific situation.

    You have a much more valid argument with the hands-on-the-wheel requirements. Even on the intended road (divided, multi-lane, controlled-access), the "hands-free" promise has been curtailed, and was never 100% even in 7.0.

    I also believe that the addition of the speed limit restriction on non-divided roads does not render AP useless on such roads. AP still excels in stop-and-go traffic on such roads, and is a major convenience in such situations. Plus, stop-and-go traffic is the situation where AP most closely approaches true hands-free driving, as the hands-on-the-wheel requirements are nearly non-existent at low speeds.
     
  13. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    And good on them for doing it too! Keep it up Tesla. please do! I love reading the rationalizations for why all the new limits are either a) a good thing, or b) not a big deal.

    Keep it going Tesla, let's see if we can get owners to care!
     
  14. kavyboy

    kavyboy Member

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    The zero-above limit was the last straw for me. I will probably not voluntarily update ever again.
     
  15. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

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    The reality is that the situation has deteriorated and essentially the Tesla dealer is now sitting there without the ability to demonstrate any autopilot function during a test drive. The AP 2.0 cars are going to (hopefully) outperform AP1.0...but part of that is that AP1.0 cars are being gimped down to a glorified lane keeping assist. If you don't believe that is a modification of the original concept, you should really go watch/ read some of the launch claims.

    I honestly don't know what part of this is regulator based and what part is intentional obsolescence to generate sales. In any event, this plan is going to start going pear-shaped if 2.0 doesn't show up soon.

    The beta is over. I expect there will be refund offers for the $2500 option cost, and that will be the end of it. Autopilot, as we have enjoyed it for the last 18 months, is dead.
     
  16. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    Oh don't worry, Tesla has ways of dealing with that. Ask anyone who tried to stay on 6.2 or 7.0 after the 7.1 rollout. It didn't take long for Tesla to disable their maps and voice control to force an update. Even among those who refused that, several were "accidentally" updated at service centres despite promises not to do so, and there was just no possible way to undo those accidental updates.
     
  17. SomeJoe7777

    SomeJoe7777 Marginally-Known Member

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    It is not a rationalization or defense of their decision. It's simply factual. Earlier in the thread, someone stated that the speed limit restriction on non-divided roads makes AP useless on such roads. I disagree. There is still a solid use case.

    In my opinion, the complaints regarding non-divided road functionality are beginning to sound quite entitled. No one was ever promised such functionality.

    I consider it fortunate that AP functionality on the intended roads (divided, multi-lane, controlled access) still works. The NHTSA, DMVs, other government agencies, etc. have had many opportunities to stick their nose into this situation and could easily take it ALL away.

    Mark my words, self-driving functionalities from level 2 all the way up to level 4 will be bouncing all over the place in terms of allowed functionality, from all perspectives: technical, procedural, and legal. The situation will get more confusing and irritating for several years before we have a stable self-driving platform that is capable and legal.
     
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  18. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    It's actually neither. No regulator in the world has asked for this, we know because regulators aren't in the habit of hiding such things.
    I guess it is to generate sales, but not in the way you think. Tesla had a PR problem, a couple of people were stupid in the cars, and killed themselves. The media were all over it despite the fact that Tesla themselves did nothing wrong. To try to avoid any negative press ever though, Tesla has decided the best way is to try to discourage AP use as much as possible. If nobody is using it, nobody can blame it when they kill themselves.
     
  19. kavyboy

    kavyboy Member

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    I could actually do without voice and maps, if it came to that. I wonder what would happen if the sim card were just removed? Would that freeze my version? I would prefer crippling the car in my own, predictable way rather than watching it happen slowly, helplessly.

    And @green1, how for did you get with rooting the car? Can you undo any of this?
     
  20. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    If you don't update yourself, and don't take it to a service centre, it will stay on the current version forever. That said, there's no guarantee that what you want will still work. I STRONGLY suspect that supercharging will be removed from all pre 8.0 cars in the very near future (as part of the change to pay per use supercharging)

    On 7.1 I can drive with no restrictions at all. I can do nothing to help on 8.0, and from my discussions with other fully rooted users, none of them can either.
     

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