Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

[aerodyne]

That is unfortunate. If it was, he could charge to 100% all the time if needed, and at a faster rate. Plus, uncorking, if they still do that.

I also want to see how things play out. Maybe they will do a course change like they did with connectivity earlier this year.

 

[IndyToronto]

FWIW, I've had a lot of expensive repairs on mercedes S class cars after they're out of warranty. My mistake was I buy the cars outright and not return them in a lease, then I keep them too long like I used to when I can only afford Hondas. S550 was horrendous in Year 7, 10k+ one year in repairs from the air suspension and transmission failure. Big chunk of that was in labor btw. The S430 I had before was even more expensive as I was too busy that last 2 years to go shopping for a car. It became a very expensive 2 years in repair bills. My mistake was replacing the S430 with an S550 just because I liked that air suspension feel too much and thought they must have improved by 2008. Nope. not by much.

However, hondas and lexus are a lot cheaper in repairs though nowhere as cheap as the Tesla (with exception of body work or that door handle if it fails out of warranty). OIl and fluid changes are still pretty expensive.

As for range, all my ICE cars never achieve the rated MPG unless driving on freeway with cruise control at speed limit. Range also varies wildly depending on age of engine/transmission and oil change. I've easily lost 20% range on the same long route due to unsolved reasons when comparing ideal vs later trips.

The longer I keep my ICE the less fuel efficient they get and it's never bothered me before, so I'm not sure why all of a sudden I should care with an EV. Everybody must understand that all rechargeable batteries degrade with each charge, it's a given the older the car gets, the less range it will get.

 

[aerodyne]

Mercedes S class!!! Wifey decided she did not like the Tesla, after we bought it, so she demanded her own car...

Now have 2019 S 560 in the garage, can barely open doors to get into any car.

Well before the corona hit, have had nothing but poor to terrible customer support and service. They say Tesla does not answer the phone? Well neither does MB on occasion, and almost never returns messages and texts.

Plus when the do, bad info or lies. Bad part numbers. Wrong service advice. No factory engine coolant to be had in North America!

And after the first oil change, with an abysmal oil analysis, I lost half a quart in 500 miles, and the engine runs rough.

It does have better leather, and sound, and nav voice. HUD is nice.

GUI sucks, and it needs a flight engineer to operate like 50 buttons and switches.

And they lied on the warranty. Only have three years, not 4. If I sell gonna loose 60k.

 

[IndyToronto]

Mercedes S class!!! Wifey decided she did not like the Tesla, after we bought it, so she demanded her own car...

Now have 2019 S 560 in the garage, can barely open doors to get into any car.

Well before the corona hit, have had nothing but poor to terrible customer support and service. They say Tesla does not answer the phone? Well neither does MB on occasion, and almost never returns messages and texts.

Plus when the do, bad info or lies. Bad part numbers. Wrong service advice. No factory engine coolant to be had in North America!

And after the first oil change, with an abysmal oil analysis, I lost half a quart in 500 miles, and the engine runs rough.

It does have better leather, and sound, and nav voice. HUD is nice.

GUI sucks, and it needs a flight engineer to operate like 50 buttons and switches.

And they lied on the warranty. Only have three years, not 4. If I sell gonna loose 60k.

The horrendous depreciation of the S class is also another reason to get rid of it quick or just lease it and then return (also expensive) but you avoid the repairs. Although tempting to keep it longer to avoid facing that steep loss, I tell everyone never keep one longer than 5 years. The annual repair costs are just not worth the hassle.

In Toronto area at least the benz dealers are very professional and friendly all through the years --- never had a problem with their service other than the unbelievably expensive cost of their friendship (and their coffee, hot chocolate).

There is no phone number to call tesla, or an email. There is the mobile home service for someone drives to your home to fix stuff. But my main peeve is : The only way I know to get replacement cabin air filter is to drive to their store and wait until someone is free to talk to you. You can't even order it from their website.

 

[azdryheat]

I have never heard of an OEM using a remanufactured engine for a warranty repair.
Even if they did those are remanufactured and if down 15% on power or economy would be considered defective.

Many years ago but Chevy replaced many Vega engines and they were all remans. We had stacks of them it was so common.

 

[Evoforce]

Many years ago but Chevy replaced many Vega engines and they were all remans. We had stacks of them it was so common.

I had a few of those! I might even still have a pitted block somewhere.

 

[robertmanning]

Interesting situation. You probably got a deficient battery. The rep gave you terrible answers. However, you do need to drive the car to determine the actual range. Then, if that is less than it should be, you can pin down Tesla with the fact that your actual achieved range is less than it should be, at the same wh/mile. And this deficiency is inconsistent with the terms of the warranty. If you complain about less kwh capacity or less displayed range, they will squirm out of that by saying that those are just calculated values. Which they are. One thing that you should know is that the 60kwh battery is actually a 75 kwh battery that is software limited to 60 kwh.

Thank you. I've always thought that there is a problem with the software limit which is affecting the range of the new battery. Again, how do I prove that is the question.

I've actually provided them with my actual achieved range. It is equivalent with a mile or two of the calculated range. I provided video proof and I'm still getting the same answer. "Tesla doesn't have a number." "The battery is operating as it should."

 

[MP3Mike]

My 2014 Model S60 battery failed two weeks ago. I received it back today and I looked like the range was odd. I believe the S60 was rated at 208 and when I got home I decided to charge it to 100% to check the range and at 100% it is 173.

They told me I was getting a refurbished pack. I checked the sticker and it reads:

60kWh, 350VDC
part number: 1120019-01-B

Any ideas? This is lower than I was getting before it was replaced.

Have I missed it or have you not ever shared what the 100% charge was on your old battery before it failed?

From this post it sounds like you should have the number:

You just reminded me that I have the STATS app. I've had it since I bought the car!

How much lower is your replacement battery than what the prior battery was before the failure?

 

[robertmanning]

If we submit complaints, the EPA will test Tesla's cars. After some research, we can't even confirm that the EPA tested Tesla's cars themselves. Tesla test their cars in-house and then submits those numbers to the EPA for confirmation. All car manufacturers do this in-house testing according to the 5-cycle EPA test.

"Although EPA sets emission standards for pollutants that vehicle manufacturers have to meet, we do not set fuel economy standards for the vehicles currently on the market. Therefore, even if a vehicle does not achieve the EPA fuel economy rating, the manufacturers are not required to re-test or change the car for that specific model year. However, if a significant number of specific vehicle complaints are received, EPA has the option of performing confirmatory tests for the vehicle the following model year."

" EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through our own tests at the National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory (Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Testing | US EPA)."

 

[Battpower]

This real vs EPA range vs battery capacity thing just keeps going on and on. I am techy and believe I understand the issues well, but after reading / listening to this kind of thread it has me scratching my head.

The actual capacity of the battery as used in a specific application is what matters. If the application charges to 4.1v, then the stored energy for that pack is clearly defined. There should be no variation (other than genuine degradation of the pack which causes internal losses to cause less efficient operation). Just like the gas tank of a car shouldn't (doesn't) change its volume! Of course as the motor wears, it becomes less efficient so what it can do with each gallon of gas gets less, but that's a different issue. In the OP's case it's like they gave him a smaller gas tank.

Now range is very different. In order to talk about range (EPA or other) you have to make assumptions. EPA may be over optimistic and Tesla wildly over optimistic, but range obviously depends on how the car is used.

The job of the charging / BMS system is just to charge the battery and make sure it is balanced and charged safely to the required safe limit. At any time the battery will have a stored amount of energy / kwh of which a certain lower amount is actually available for use. The range you get from your stored energy is purely down to how efficiently you drive and how little energy you can get away with using for each mile you travel. Tesla will guess / speculate about how far typical drivers might get on however much energy your battery can store at full charge, but that is nothing to do with the condition of your battery.

An ICE can range would not surprising drop by roughly 50% if you put in a half sized gas tank! Yes, that would effect your range, but only because the car has half the fuel available.

So talking about range as a measure of battery status makes no sense to me. The two ideas are inevitably linked if you ignore WHY you get a certain range. The same spec gas car with a smaller gas tank could have the same range as one with a bigger tank if it is used differently. The point is, a careful driver with a large gas tank should obviously get the max possible range.

So.... you can't use range as a measure of battery condition although a sudden drop in range with all other factors unchanged most likely points to a battery issue.

The only way to focus on the correct discussion is to focus on the battery capacity both when 'new' and when 'failed'. That's why imo Tesla dropped the numbers from the cars. They don't want people to be reminded what size battery they actually bought.

The way Tesla are playing it at the moment is like range is everything. A Model S 350 would have a 350 mile range, and we can stick any battery in and claim the range is 350 if you drive hypermiling style.

If your battery is supposed to store 75kwh with 70kwh available, how you use that energy is up to each driver. If the OP was given an old battery with lower energy capacity than his old one, that's cr** and Tesla should sort him out.

Focus on the battery stats not range. While each owner will have a range they typically get, having that range suddenly drop because they drive differently or its very cold is not the same deal as the battery capacity suddenly dropping due to battery gate, faulty battery, battery replacement.

The question I would demand of Tesla is to see the status report they used to determine what the replacement battery spec had to be.

 

[aerodyne]

If your battery is supposed to store 75kwh with 70kwh available, how you use that energy is up to each driver. If the OP was given an old battery with lower energy capacity than his old one, that's cr** and Tesla should sort him out.

Focus on the battery stats not range.

^^^Exactly. But to do this, one needs a reader, as we know Tesla includes the buffer in the range calculation (RM). The M3 is warrantied against more than 30% degradation. If said pack is 75 KwH new, and degraded to 52 KwH that would require replacement.

Tesla is the one muddying the waters by using range numbers. We can counter that by using the EPA MGGe number to figure out the actual batt capacity new, which does not involve charging losses or fudge factors, or the variables of driving the car from 100% to 0%.

 

[aerodyne]

Robert, did you resolve your problem? IIRC the 60 DOES have a degradation clause in the warranty as well as they should not give you a batt with less range than the one that was replaced ..

 

[Battpower]

Sorry @aerodyne, I editted before your reply.

So OP should ask for evidence that they matched his battery performance with the replacement. Not match range!

 

[aerodyne]

Yes, it is up to them to prove the capacity is not less. I can't believe they did not take a reading of the capacity in KwH of the old pack before replacement.

 

[Battpower]

Yes, it is up to them to prove the capacity is not less. I can't believe they did not take a reading of the capacity in KwH of the old pack before replacement.

They would have to do that to be able to comply with wty terms.

 

[MP3Mike]

You will notice that the OP has never stated what their range was before the pack failed. (At least that I have seen.) That makes me thinks that the range was similar to their new pack and they were hoping to get a much better pack with the replacement.

 

[aerodyne]

I would hope that too if I was in his shoes! However, sounds like he got a lot worse, and is getting the run around from Tesla.

 

[MP3Mike]

However, sounds like he got a lot worse

Based on what? The only comparison they made was to the brand new rating. We have no idea if the new pack is a little worse, the same, or a little better than what they had.

 

[Battpower]

You will notice that the OP has never stated what their range was before the pack failed. (At least that I have seen.) That makes me thinks that the range was similar to their new pack and they were hoping to get a much better pack with the replacement.

Agreed, but surely Tesla should also be able to demonstrate (other than vague / meaningless claims about range) that the replacement battery was at least the same capacity as his original just before failure?

In fact, the notion of 'failure' doesn't really work when it could be gradual degredation that just went beyond unpublished limits determined and only known by Tesla.

 

[Peter Lucas]

This real vs EPA range vs battery capacity thing just keeps going on and on. I am techy and believe I understand the issues well, but after reading / listening to this kind of thread it has me scratching my head.

The actual capacity of the battery as used in a specific application is what matters. If the application charges to 4.1v, then the stored energy for that pack is clearly defined. There should be no variation (other than genuine degradation of the pack which causes internal losses to cause less efficient operation). Just like the gas tank of a car shouldn't (doesn't) change its volume! Of course as the motor wears, it becomes less efficient so what it can do with each gallon of gas gets less, but that's a different issue. In the OP's case it's like they gave him a smaller gas tank.

Now range is very different. In order to talk about range (EPA or other) you have to make assumptions. EPA may be over optimistic and Tesla wildly over optimistic, but range obviously depends on how the car is used.

The job of the charging / BMS system is just to charge the battery and make sure it is balanced and charged safely to the required safe limit. At any time the battery will have a stored amount of energy / kwh of which a certain lower amount is actually available for use. The range you get from your stored energy is purely down to how efficiently you drive and how little energy you can get away with using for each mile you travel. Tesla will guess / speculate about how far typical drivers might get on however much energy your battery can store at full charge, but that is nothing to do with the condition of your battery.

An ICE can range would not surprising drop by roughly 50% if you put in a half sized gas tank! Yes, that would effect your range, but only because the car has half the fuel available.

So talking about range as a measure of battery status makes no sense to me. The two ideas are inevitably linked if you ignore WHY you get a certain range. The same spec gas car with a smaller gas tank could have the same range as one with a bigger tank if it is used differently. The point is, a careful driver with a large gas tank should obviously get the max possible range.

So.... you can't use range as a measure of battery condition although a sudden drop in range with all other factors unchanged most likely points to a battery issue.

The only way to focus on the correct discussion is to focus on the battery capacity both when 'new' and when 'failed'. That's why imo Tesla dropped the numbers from the cars. They don't want people to be reminded what size battery they actually bought.

The way Tesla are playing it at the moment is like range is everything. A Model S 350 would have a 350 mile range, and we can stick any battery in and claim the range is 350 if you drive hypermiling style.

If your battery is supposed to store 75kwh with 70kwh available, how you use that energy is up to each driver. If the OP was given an old battery with lower energy capacity than his old one, that's cr** and Tesla should sort him out.

Focus on the battery stats not range. While each owner will have a range they typically get, having that range suddenly drop because they drive differently or its very cold is not the same deal as the battery capacity suddenly dropping due to battery gate, faulty battery, battery replacement.

The question I would demand of Tesla is to see the status report they used to determine what the replacement battery spec had to be.

You are correct. It is two separate issues. One, useable battery capacity. And two, rated wh/mile, driving efficiency. They both impact range. In my car, both are inaccurate in a way to falsely elevate displayed and advertised range. My useable battery capacity is (and long has been) about 15% less than advertised. And the wh/mile used for range calculations is about 15% less than my car can achieve with a modest driving style. These two "inaccuracies" result in a real life range that is 30% - 35% less than advertised/displayed.
While it might be tempting to think that my car is a rare case, it appears that real range divided by rated range is 70% on average for Model S owners as can be seen here in their "efficiency" numbers: TezLab
Commonly unappreciated is that the cars display of full charge range may fail to reveal (in fact conceals) the full extent of battery degradation. So all those "studies" which demonstrate minimal battery degradation, based on very small declines of displayed full charge range, are completely fluff.