Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

[sosilver]

For the above, sorry, for all figures above, I used wt/mi, when I meant wh/mi.

 

[WadeMT]

I use percentage display exclusively, and if I am concerned about running my battery low I just look at the energy consumption and trip screens. They take into account how you’ve been driving.

 

[Peter Lucas]

Joining late, but read the thread.
I also have "range" problems related to the May 2019 software castration.
However, this has allowed me to understand that the word "Range" is absolutely misunderstood. As has been pointed out in this thread, the real world range or any other estimated range can dramatically change based upon the average wt/mi, and these number are available within the main screen or could be based upon lifetime usage. (After 120k Miles, my average is 321.6 wt/mt).

HOWEVER- in the drivers screen, the range displayed is based upon a set value programmed by Tesla, and as I understand it, on a 2014 Model S85, that figure is 296 wt/mi. I cannot say how the number of 350 wt/mi was available, but I do know that when discussion range, it important to articulate that you are using the drivers screen range, which uses a static, hardwired ( not based upon driving habit) range factor.

You are correct that there is a Rated Range which relies on a "hardwired" value for wh/mile. (On mine, it is 300 wh/mile). Most of us here having this discussion understand that perfectly well. The other factor that determines range is the usable capacity of the battery. (Range equals Battery Capacity divided by wh/mile) It has been long assumed by Tesla owners that any and all battery degradation will show up in a decreased display of full charge Rated Range. It should. Most Teslas show very small decreases (5-10 miles) in the full charge Rated Range over many years. So it has been assumed that battery degradation has been minimal. But closer examination of many cars reveals that usable battery capacity, and real achievable range have diminished considerably even as the cars display of full charge range remains little changed from new. My car for example (early 2016 90D) has a usable battery capacity of 72-73 kwh and an achievable range of about 200-220 miles, yet the full charge display of range is little changed from that of a new car at around 270-275 miles. (When new the 90D cars at this time showed a range of around 280 miles). This should make you make you think: Wait. Something is not adding up right. And here we are.

 

[Peter Lucas]

I use percentage display exclusively, and if I am concerned about running my battery low I just look at the energy consumption and trip screens. They take into account how you’ve been driving.

I too have the display set to SOC rather than Rated Range. Two reasons. First, the Rated Range is a useless lie. To get real range I would have to subtract 30%. Not an easy thing to do at a glance. So why look at it. It will just create confusion and frustration. Second, when set to SOC, I can mentally double the displayed value to get a good approximation of my real range.

 

[RedOctober]

You are correct that there is a Rated Range which relies on a "hardwired" value for wh/mile. (On mine, it is 300 wh/mile). Most of us here having this discussion understand that perfectly well. The other factor that determines range is the usable capacity of the battery. (Range equals Battery Capacity divided by wh/mile) It has been long assumed by Tesla owners that any and all battery degradation will show up in a decreased display of full charge Rated Range. It should. Most Teslas show very small decreases (5-10 miles) in the full charge Rated Range over many years. So it has been assumed that battery degradation has been minimal. But closer examination of many cars reveals that usable battery capacity, and real achievable range have diminished considerably even as the cars display of full charge range remains little changed from new. My car for example (early 2016 90D) has a usable battery capacity of 72-73 kwh and an achievable range of about 200-220 miles, yet the full charge display of range is little changed from that of a new car at around 270-275 miles. (When new the 90D cars at this time showed a range of around 280 miles). This should make you make you think: Wait. Something is not adding up right. And here we are.

Interesting. My 2017 MS had a 258 mile range new, it now displays around 235 miles but I can’t go that distance. Always thought I was a little too hard on the accelerator. I don’t think they want people to see the actual range as they would be getting too many complaints.

 

[Peter Lucas]

Interesting. My 2017 MS had a 258 mile range new, it now displays around 235 miles but I can’t go that distance. Always thought I was a little too hard on the accelerator. I don’t think they want people to see the actual range as they would be getting too many complaints.

A number of disappointments on this. First, the Rated Range was never a very realistic value. I was told that it was readily achievable by the Tesla Sales Rep. Shame on me for believing that. Second, the battery degradation is much more than expected (mine had lost about 15% at 6 mos). Third, the extent of battery degradation is concealed by the Display of Rated Range.

 

[laalan]

Joined late, read the previous posts, but my 2013 P85 had a battery failure about a year and a half ago. Battery replaced with one of lower capacity. I finally gave up on my quest for a replacement as those that were going to handle it left the company and it has been an uphill battle that just wore me out. As long as the replacement had similar degraded range, that was end of story.

 

[Peter Lucas]

Joined late, read the previous posts, but my 2013 P85 had a battery failure about a year and a half ago. Battery replaced with one of lower capacity. I finally gave up on my quest for a replacement as those that were going to handle it left the company and it has been an uphill battle that just wore me out. As long as the replacement had similar degraded range, that was end of story.

Wow. Stories like this are piling up. Terrible.

 

[MP3Mike]

So if the munrony sticker said 35 KwH per 100 miles at the wall, that is actually about 30.8 KwH per 100 miles used by the car.

208 miles x .308kwh/mi = 64 KwH.

According to WK057 the original 60kWh battery had ~61 kWh total capacity with ~58.5 kWh usable when new.

 

[Cmdred]

Keeping everyone updated. I had to file a warranty dispute with Tesla as they were taking in circles and then simply stopped responding. Once I filed the dispute, my phone started ringing again, but please read on. Tesla was in touch with me all last week saying they were going to remotely solve the problem. They had me change some settings of the car and I was asked not to use the app while the engineers were remotely working on a "battery module" fix. After four days, nothing on the car had changed. On Tuesday, May 19th, 2020, I received a call from a Tesla manager saying that he was sorry the fix is taking so long and that he was making sure I wasn't forgotten about.

I received a call yesterday, Wednesday May 21st, 2020, from a tech at the Orlando service center. I asked him if they had solved the problem and he said that the "problem" the engineers were looking for didn't apply to my car. He then started with the same old questions and saying the battery was fine and that my new battery had much more capacity than my old. I asked the tech what those numbers were and he told me he wasn't allowed to say. I informed him that he can't just "say" the new battery has more capacity and I informed him that if that was the case, then the new battery would have more range than my old battery. He then started fishing for range numbers of my previous battery and I told him again that my old battery had more "range" than the new battery. I then made my point about the math, and that my old battery demonstrated more capacity than the new battery. The new battery is demonstrating 45-46kwh capacity, and that is unacceptable. When I told him that his call was an attempt to "fish" for me to say something contradictory to my complaint, he quickly got off the phone after saying that he was in my corner and was only trying to ascertain the problem.

When I asked why the replacement battery is only demonstrating 45-46kwh of capacity he said, "....."

Crickets.

So what seemed promising last week has brought me right back to square one this week.

Robert how do you file a warranty dispute? I have been keeping track of actual range on my M3 Performance since I bought it last August, and I've never been able to get more than 270miles range at best, usually more like 250, when it was sold to me as, and all its calculations are based on 310miles. (and yes, that includes turning every energy draining function off including air and driving like a grandma) That means when I plan a trip, I am at risk of being stranded in the desert because its planning on me needing a charge far later than i will actually need it. I've been in 3 times, showed them my spreadsheet, and they do nothing. How are you measuring your battery capacity, BTW? I love the car but hate the range lies it tells me and the fact that I was not sold what was promised. Thinking of filing a lemon law complaint, but wondered how you filed the warranty dispute.

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

Didn't the original 60 packs come as 75kwh but only had 80% usable? Maybe his original was a 75 that was going bad and the kept re-allocating which bad cells to use so it kept it at the 80% usable mark, But overtime more than 20% of the cell went bad and he starting dipping into actual used cells and threw the warning to get it replaced.

So instead of his old pack being [75kwh - 35% degradation = 48.75 kWh] his new pack is [60kwh - 20% = 48 kWh] So his new pack would be less range even though it has less degradation. Just a guess, sucks to be in OP position trying to get his car fix but coming away in a worse position.

 

[Cmdred]

Yes, I have had the same experience.

yes what i have observed is this prediction is based on its assumption that i get the advertised range. It does not to my knowledge
base it on what I actually get. So for example when I plan a trip from LA to Prescott, Az, it tells me I'd get there with 18miles left.
However, based on my actual range/efficiency I would be stranded in the desert.

 

[CertLive]

I have done 4000 miles in my Tesla model 3 Oct 2019. Its now rated at 230 miles full charge compared to 240 advertised though it only ever charged to 239 since new. Last week I did a drive which is flat little elevation of 130 miles I left with 95% and arrived back with 28% with an average consumption of 222wh/mi with the data taken from a better route planner connected to the car. This is my latest trip info with the car. But I have lost range already and never started with the 240 as sold. But this seemed to be quite the common thing in peoples apps. Would be interested to see how it compares.

Ok to add on the way back 246wh/mi.

 

[MP3Mike]

I have been keeping track of actual range on my M3 Performance since I bought it last August, and I've never been able to get more than 270miles range at best, usually more like 250, when it was sold to me as, and all its calculations are based on 310miles. (and yes, that includes turning every energy draining function off including air and driving like a grandma) That means when I plan a trip, I am at risk of being stranded in the desert because its planning on me needing a charge far later than i will actually need it.

The 310 miles is based on the EPA test procedure, so unless you are driving the EPA test procedure you aren't going to get that range. The trip planner/energy graph uses your actual consumption to predict how far you can go, so it is much more accurate than the remaining range displayed.

 

[Frans928]

There would be less discussion about battery capacity if you use the app: "scan my tesla" and buy an ODBLink adapter + connector cable. All numbers mentioned here are already in the car, you just have to read out the "Nominal full pack" and "Usable full pack"

 

[drklain]

yes what i have observed is this prediction is based on its assumption that i get the advertised range. It does not to my knowledge
base it on what I actually get. So for example when I plan a trip from LA to Prescott, Az, it tells me I'd get there with 18miles left.
However, based on my actual range/efficiency I would be stranded in the desert.

Totally disagree. I have done some very long drives (250mi+) in my 90D. The projected state of chart (trip display) is very accurate and if anything, I find it to be a bit conservative (I rarely arrive somewhere at a LOWER state of charge than what it predicted when I started the trip bur regularly arrive somewhat higher remaining SOC than what was projected.

Now the actual "miles remaining" display on the Energy graph is a different story. Even if you let it to the longest possible integration, it is merely projecting based on your actual usage over the last 30 miles and there can be big variation in there do to speed, traffic conditions, type of driving (highway vs. streets), and elevation changes, even on the same drive. That said, it is generally a "good approximation" number and, when combined with the trip display you can be confident of what SOC you will arrive at.

 

[Battpower]

projecting based on your actual usage over the last 30 miles and there can be big variation

Yes.

 

[maximnl]

Keeping everyone updated. I had to file a warranty dispute with Tesla as they were taking in circles and then simply stopped responding. Once I filed the dispute, my phone started ringing again, but please read on. Tesla was in touch with me all last week saying they were going to remotely solve the problem. They had me change some settings of the car and I was asked not to use the app while the engineers were remotely working on a "battery module" fix. After four days, nothing on the car had changed. On Tuesday, May 19th, 2020, I received a call from a Tesla manager saying that he was sorry the fix is taking so long and that he was making sure I wasn't forgotten about.

I received a call yesterday, Wednesday May 21st, 2020, from a tech at the Orlando service center. I asked him if they had solved the problem and he said that the "problem" the engineers were looking for didn't apply to my car. He then started with the same old questions and saying the battery was fine and that my new battery had much more capacity than my old. I asked the tech what those numbers were and he told me he wasn't allowed to say. I informed him that he can't just "say" the new battery has more capacity and I informed him that if that was the case, then the new battery would have more range than my old battery. He then started fishing for range numbers of my previous battery and I told him again that my old battery had more "range" than the new battery. I then made my point about the math, and that my old battery demonstrated more capacity than the new battery. The new battery is demonstrating 45-46kwh capacity, and that is unacceptable. When I told him that his call was an attempt to "fish" for me to say something contradictory to my complaint, he quickly got off the phone after saying that he was in my corner and was only trying to ascertain the problem.

When I asked why the replacement battery is only demonstrating 45-46kwh of capacity he said, "....."

Crickets.

So what seemed promising last week has brought me right back to square one this week.

Why did you replace your old battery?

 

[aerodyne]

Keeping everyone updated. I had to file a warranty dispute with Tesla as they were taking in circles and then simply stopped responding. Once I filed the dispute, my phone started ringing again, but please read on. Tesla was in touch with me all last week saying they were going to remotely solve the problem. They had me change some settings of the car and I was asked not to use the app while the engineers were remotely working on a "battery module" fix. After four days, nothing on the car had changed. On Tuesday, May 19th, 2020, I received a call from a Tesla manager saying that he was sorry the fix is taking so long and that he was making sure I wasn't forgotten about.

I received a call yesterday, Wednesday May 21st, 2020, from a tech at the Orlando service center. I asked him if they had solved the problem and he said that the "problem" the engineers were looking for didn't apply to my car. He then started with the same old questions and saying the battery was fine and that my new battery had much more capacity than my old. I asked the tech what those numbers were and he told me he wasn't allowed to say. I informed him that he can't just "say" the new battery has more capacity and I informed him that if that was the case, then the new battery would have more range than my old battery. He then started fishing for range numbers of my previous battery and I told him again that my old battery had more "range" than the new battery. I then made my point about the math, and that my old battery demonstrated more capacity than the new battery. The new battery is demonstrating 45-46kwh capacity, and that is unacceptable. When I told him that his call was an attempt to "fish" for me to say something contradictory to my complaint, he quickly got off the phone after saying that he was in my corner and was only trying to ascertain the problem.

When I asked why the replacement battery is only demonstrating 45-46kwh of capacity he said, "....."

Crickets.

So what seemed promising last week has brought me right back to square one this week.

Keep up being a thorn in their side and don't give up until they give you the battery that you were promised.

We can't change people or companies, but with hard work and a little luck, can modify their bad behavior.

 

[aerodyne]

There would be less discussion about battery capacity if you use the app: "scan my tesla" and buy an ODBLink adapter + connector cable. All numbers mentioned here are already in the car, you just have to read out the "Nominal full pack" and "Usable full pack"