Best Car in the World?

[hans]

Only time will tell if Model S is "best in the world". I don't think that's a label you put on a single model year anyway. I can think of very few dynasty car models that consistently won "best" awards over many years. The Mazda Miata, BMW 3 and 5 series (e39 in particular), and the Porsche 911. Each of these are stand out models for very different reasons and none of them are perfect in every aspect but they were all fun to drive, have legions of fans, have an active aftermarket, and excelled over many years and successive redesigns and incremental improvements.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

How many sedans have a 50/50 weight ratio and a 16" CG? + 4s 0-60 & super huge cargo space + it is quiet!

I vote for the best sedan in the world.

 

[spatterso911]

Unless there is a car that does fulfill those criteria, you are talking about "perfect", not "best". Maybe you are still loyal to the M5 or something.

I think many of the arguments about missing luxury features, and other similar criticisms, are beside the point. Those features can, in theory, be added to any car, including the Model S. It is just a decision of where to put R&D resources and of product strategy (which in general goes more in direction towards an affordable Gen3). The point was to show that an electric car *can* be the best car. And what I understand even from those who say it isn't, is that even they actually believe it could be. So the Model S actually does prove, in this sense, that an electric car can be the best car.

No offense, Norbert, but perhaps you did not understand my comment in its entirety.

My comment has nothing to do with any loyalty towards the M5 or any other car for that matter. I'm not talking PERFECT car. I said "in order to be the BEST car, it has to meet all of the needs of the people who drive it BETTER than any other car out there". I'm not the one who said that the Model S is the best car in the world. I'm not sure I know what car really is, for that matter. You can add any feature to any car, so your comment is meaningless to me. If you have to "fix" the car to make it better for you, does that make it the best car in the world?

My comment really relates to the fact that for many reasons or whatever, the Model S has withheld features that are quite common place for this price range, or even cars in a much lower price range. I totally get the concept that it is the best EV sedan in the world. I can even buy that it is the best personal EV in the world. But that is irrelevant. Tesla stated unequivocally that they intended to "build the best sedan in the world". Bar none. They did not say "we are going to build a car that 'might' or 'can' potentially be the best car in the world. Is the former statement a true statement as posed by the OP? Can't completely agree because it still feels a bit unfinished. There are more than thirty other original posts describing opinions on why that statement is true. If I had confidence in the longevity of the CA and Federal tax credit programs, CA HOV access for EV's and political attitude towards EV's, I would wait another 2-3 years to let the car develop more into what Tesla is trying to accomplish. As it stands, I want it now, and I'm willing to accept the shortcomings because the whole is not the sum of its parts, but I wouldn't place it as the best car in the world. Not yet anyways.

 

[vfx]

If someone offered to take my Model S and trade me any other car in the world, of any value, with the stipulations that:
1) I couldn't turn around and buy another Model S
2) I couldn't sell that new car ( when I was done with it, they would take it back and give me the blue book value of an equivalent condition used Model S )
I would say no.

Best car in the world to me.

This works for me too as long as the category is Sedan.

"want"

 

[smorgasbord]

If someone offered to take my Model S and trade me any other car in the world, of any value, with the stipulations that:
1) I couldn't turn around and buy another Model S
2) I couldn't sell that new car ( when I was done with it, they would take it back and give me the blue book value of an equivalent condition used Model S )
I would say no.

Best car in the world to me.

Any other car in the world? Not just sedan? Not just new? You're kidding, right?

(I'd find it hard to refuse a new Eagle Speedster. I previously owned a '66 Jag E-Type.)

 

[Norbert]

No offense, Norbert, but perhaps you did not understand my comment in its entirety.

Upon reading your response, I think I understood your original comment as you wrote it: you claim it has to meet *all the needs* better (for those who...). I disagree. It can be better in regard to some needs, and while not as good in regard to other needs, it can still be better overall. To ask for a car that is better in regard to all needs, is perfectionism. Although Tesla is a bit perfectionistic, Elon was misinterpreted in previous discussions as claiming that the Model S would be better in *every* regard. I think that was confused with the claim that Model S was expected to get a 5-star safety rating in *all* categories.

You can add any feature to any car, so your comment is meaningless to me.

This is not true. The Model S has key features which you cannot add to other cars (in general). I stand by my point. I don't even think I have to explain that, or give examples. It is obvious.

My comment really relates to the fact that for many reasons or whatever, the Model S has withheld features that are quite common place for this price range, or even cars in a much lower price range.

So? The Model S does not claim to be a "common" car. Those who insist on certain "luxury" features should not fall into the self-serving attitude that these features would be an a-priori requirement for being considered "best". Many here say that they in fact see the Model S as "best", simply because they do not insist on those features.

In any case:

Tesla stated unequivocally that they intended to "build the best sedan in the world". Bar none. They did not say "we are going to build a car that 'might' or 'can' potentially be the best car in the world.

Tesla not only said that it is the "best sedan". When being more verbose about that point, Elon combined it with saying that the goal is to show that electric cars can be not only almost as good, or maybe just as good, but even better. And that, is my point, is the more significant part of that claim, the intention behind it, and I believe the Model S has proven it already. Of course further improvements are possible, including in battery-$/kWh.

Is the former statement a true statement as posed by the OP? Can't completely agree because it still feels a bit unfinished. There are more than thirty other original posts describing opinions on why that statement is true. If I had confidence in the longevity of the CA and Federal tax credit programs, CA HOV access for EV's and political attitude towards EV's, I would wait another 2-3 years to let the car develop more into what Tesla is trying to accomplish. As it stands, I want it now, and I'm willing to accept the shortcomings because the whole is not the sum of its parts, but I wouldn't place it as the best car in the world. Not yet anyways.

I think Tesla deserves it to be pointed out that all these are temporary in relation to a new product/production, or questions of offering additional options. They built a car which gets rave reviews and their owners love it. They deserve getting credit for that.

- - - Updated - - -

(I'd find it hard to refuse a new Eagle Speedster. I previously owned a '66 Jag E-Type.)

Show me a pic with its cupholders, first.

 

[spatterso911]

Upon reading your response, I think I understood your original comment as you wrote it: you claim it has to meet *all the needs* better (for those who...). I disagree. It can be better in regard to some needs, and while not as good in regard to other needs, it can still be better overall. To ask for a car that is better in regard to all needs, is perfectionism. Although Tesla is a bit perfectionistic, Elon was misinterpreted in previous discussions as claiming that the Model S would be better in *every* regard. I think that was confused with the claim that Model S was expected to get a 5-star safety rating in *all* categories.

Norbert, we are saying the same thing. It does have to meet *all of my needs* better than any other car under my consideration. Plain and simple How much better is relative to the need and how it compares to whatever other car I am considering. An Audi R8 certainly meets my acceleration and thrill needs, but not my practicality/space needs, so it's not my idea of the best car in the world. Not to say it isn't a fabulous car. The M5 has similar issues. Not my idea of the best car in the world, although for many years it was, in my opinion.

This is not true. The Model S has key features which you cannot add to other cars (in general). I stand by my point. I don't even think I have to explain that, or give examples. It is obvious.

Black and white interpretation. Okay, so you cannot make any car fly. You got me on that one. You can, however, change interior appointments, electronic features, modify body components, etc... you really should have gotten that point straight away.

So? The Model S does not claim to be a "common" car. Those who insist on certain "luxury" features should not fall into the self-serving attitude that these features would be an a-priori requirement for being considered "best". Many here say that they in fact see the Model S as "best", simply because they do not insist on those features.

In any case:



Tesla not only said that it is the "best sedan". When being more verbose about that point, Elon combined it with saying that the goal is to show that electric cars can be not only almost as good, or maybe just as good, but even better. And that, is my point, is the more significant part of that claim, the intention behind it, and I believe the Model S has proven it already. Of course further improvements are possible, including in battery-$/kWh.



I think Tesla deserves it to be pointed out that all these are temporary in relation to a new product/production, or questions of offering additional options. They built a car which gets rave reviews and their owners love it. They deserve getting credit for that.

The Model S does claim to compare itself to common cars. It's striving to win the hearts of those who would otherwise purchase a common car, or an ICE sedan. Those luxury (née premium) features are fairly common in a particular price range, and I'm not even talking about things like adaptive cruise or multi-cam video systems. I mean simple things that we take for granted. They may not mean much to you, but to many others, it makes them start their own company to try to fix the problem for others, and those missing items complicates things for others. Not asking for Tesla to shine in every category as an automaker. But when you step up and say that you are building the best sedan in the world, you'd better cross your t's and dot your i's or expect some criticism. I totally believe that Elon, and Tesla, are delivering a car that can be as good if not better than any other vehicle in it's class. In that regard, they have absolutely achieved that goal. With regard to building the best sedan in the world? Not quite yet.

Not interested in getting in a posting war with anyone. The OP did not start this post expecting to get 275 posts embellishing on how the Model S is the best car in the world. I think we can agree to disagree. Any look at my past posts will tell you that I have drank the Tesla Kool-Aid as much as anyone, but it's one thing to say "i'm buying the best car for me" and another to say "I'm buying the best car in the world". I don't think I have to explain that or give examples. It is obvious.

 

[Norbert]

Norbert, we are saying the same thing. It does have to meet *all of my needs* better than any other car under my consideration. Plain and simple How much better is relative to the need and how it compares to whatever other car I am considering. An Audi R8 certainly meets my acceleration and thrill needs, but not my practicality/space needs, so it's not my idea of the best car in the world. Not to say it isn't a fabulous car. The M5 has similar issues. Not my idea of the best car in the world, although for many years it was, in my opinion.

In so far as you put your thoughts into writing, it is not the same thing. The key here is you say the R8 isn't your *idea* of the best car, because there is a need it doesn't meet. But the term "best", in general, doesn't require that it meets all your needs. It *only* requires that it is better than all other cars. It seems you currently have no "best" car, because none come close enough to your idea of what it should be like. For you, it seems to be a predicate that you would not assign just because all other cars meet your needs even less.

In theory, someone could consider a car the "best", even if that car meets only a few needs, but very well, while another car would meet all needs, yet not very well. (Aside from that, some don't really "need" a car at all.)

Black and white interpretation. Okay, so you cannot make any car fly. You got me on that one. You can, however, change interior appointments, electronic features, modify body components, etc... you really should have gotten that point straight away.

I'm not sure what that flying example is about. My point was simply that the luxury features which I heard about here as "missing", could be added easily as options. If not retrofittable, then at least in v1.5 or v2.0, without difficulty. They are not part of a car's inherent construction, design and quality. We even heard that (at least at some point) they worked on preparations to be able to retrofit ACC later on. In any case, adding those features does not become more difficult because of the car being electric, than it would be otherwise.

But when you step up and say that you are building the best sedan in the world, you'd better cross your t's and dot your i's or expect some criticism. I totally believe that Elon, and Tesla, are delivering a car that can be as good if not better than any other vehicle in it's class. In that regard, they have absolutely achieved that goal.

I think they are currently working hard on crossing t's and dotting i's, they just have to set priorities, as things are, and they are going to sometimes set different ones than you or I might recommend. That shouldn't keep us from giving them credit for their accomplishment.

it's one thing to say "i'm buying the best car for me" and another to say "I'm buying the best car in the world"

I'd agree that for example the software isn't finished yet. However, I think Tesla will be getting close enough to acknowledge their accomplishments as a serious contender for the "title", even without the EV vs ICE difference.

Now taking the EV vs ICE difference back into account, I'd say the Model S is not only the best sedan in the world, but that it is so by a wide margin and without competition even in sight.

 

[spatterso911]

Well, Norbert, you are definitely entitled to have that as your opinion.

I would agree that Tesla will be getting close enough to acknowledge that they are a serious contender for the "title". I am duly impressed as a serious auto enthusiast that they, as a relative newcomer, achieved what has been achieved. I would not be here, 5 months away from delivery, were it not the case.

I do give them credit for where Tesla is at this point, but conceding that one is great does not automatically make the leap to being the greatest, even if we are fans of their accomplishments. We can all revel in the fact that we are on the verge of something great, but I'm not ready to say that they have made the best sedan in the world just yet, because I still think that things of value to me are works in progress. To say that the car will be the best sedan in the world in subsequent generations as 1.5 or 2.0 doesn't cut the mustard for me, because that is not true to the spirit of Elon's statement. I've said it once before, I'll say it again. Tesla has the makings of what can be the best sedan in the world, best car in the world. Time will tell if/when that comes to fruition. At this point, it's the best EV in the world. Period. It's a phenomenal sedan which strongly rivals what are considered by many to be the best sedans in the world. Period. My opinion, let's just leave it at that.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, Norbert, you are definitely entitled to have that as your opinion.

I would agree that Tesla will be getting close enough to acknowledge that they are a serious contender for the "title". I am duly impressed as a serious auto enthusiast that they, as a relative newcomer, achieved what has been achieved. I would not be here, 5 months away from delivery, were it not the case.

I do give them credit for where Tesla is at this point, but conceding that one is great does not automatically make the leap to being the greatest, even if we are fans of their accomplishments. We can all revel in the fact that we are on the verge of something great, but I'm not ready to say that they have made the best sedan in the world just yet, because I still think that things of value to me are works in progress. To say that the car will be the best sedan in the world in subsequent generations as 1.5 or 2.0 doesn't cut the mustard for me, because that is not true to the spirit of Elon's statement. I've said it once before, I'll say it again. Tesla has the makings of what can be the best sedan in the world, best car in the world. Time will tell if/when that comes to fruition. At this point, it's the best EV in the world. Period. It's a phenomenal sedan which strongly rivals what are considered by many to be the best sedans in the world. Period. My opinion, let's just leave it at that.

 

[Norbert]

It's a phenomenal sedan which strongly rivals what are considered by many to be the best sedans in the world. Period. My opinion, let's just leave it at that.

I suppose that's a quite good base level for what we can agree on...

 

[jkirkebo]

How many sedans have a 50/50 weight ratio and a 16" CG? + 4s 0-60 & super huge cargo space + it is quiet!

I vote for the best sedan in the world.

I vote for the best hatchback in the world

 

[NigelM]

Model S the best car in the world? How can it be truly compared to one of those old fashioned, mechanical thingys that you had to fill smelly fossil fuel into a big tank in order to go anywhere? When I was a kid I had a miniature train set that actually ran on steam, I had to burn little bits of wood in it and fill it with water to make it go (imagine that in today's litigious society!); it was kinda fun but a big PITA, slow and also kinda messy. Later on I got an RC car and put batteries in it.....wheeeee! Driving that RC round in the street was tremendous fun and it had rechargeable, no-mess batteries with less chance of setting my bedroom on fire. I know which toy was the best.

 

[vfx]

...I got an RC car and put batteries in it.....wheeeee! Driving that RC round in the street was tremendous fun and it had rechargeable, no-mess batteries with less chance of setting my bedroom on fire. I know which toy was the best.

My first ride in the Roadster had me thinking I had been shrunk down and placed in the seat of my wheeee RC car. A boy's dream come true.

 

[smorgasbord]

How can it be truly compared to one of those old fashioned, mechanical thingys that you had to fill smelly fossil fuel into a big tank in order to go anywhere?

I understand people who think Tesla's drivetrain is so great, it doesn't matter if much of the rest of the car is sub-par.

That doesn't change the fact that much of the rest of the car is sub-par. The outside is too wide, the inside is too low. The mirrors aren't power folding. The door handles are annoying. Its sunroof has a thick prison bar going across the middle, and vision out the back is terrible. It doesn't have Park Distance Sensors. It's got the largest battery pack, yet has only one lighter socket and a couple of USBs and you can't even run a standard 110v inverter. It doesn't even have a low-MPH spare. It's got a ton of cargo space, but no door pockets, a small glove box, and no storage in the center console. The rear windows don't roll down all the way. For all the technology, it doesn't have heads-up display, auto-parking, collision avoidance, night vision, or even adaptive cruise control. Heck, even the key fob is awkward to carry around. The touchscreen is cool in many ways, but I think the jury's still out on having to go through menus to get to functionality.

So, yeah, it's electric, fast and smooth. If you want to say that trumps everything else I won't argue. Just understand that it doesn't trump everything else for everyone else.

 

[vfx]

I understand people who think Tesla's drivetrain is so great, it doesn't matter if much of the rest of the car is sub-par.....

And all your nits are easy to add on in future iterations. The tough stuff, safety, handling, acceleration, are fundamentally much more difficult to upgreade. Tesla focused of the big ticket hard stuff. The rest is cake.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I love everything about the car itself despite the shortcomings that smorgasbord pointed out (they are all legitimate problem areas but ones that I can live with).

However, at the risk of taking this thread off on a tangent here, I'd like to submit as a criterion for judging the car, the entire pre-delivery roller-coaster experience as a reservation holder. Yes, we are talking about a startup with a new factory, new employees etc. putting out a car built from scratch. All the same, on this front, Tesla has fared very poorly even by any sort of diminished expectations. And, adding that into the mix - when compared to the decent (or better) BMW/Audi dealerships of the world - Tesla Model S has a long way to go before being termed the "best" car in the world IMO.

If I were asked about it by folks interested in the car, I'll definitely sing its praises as far as the car proper goes but, I'll be sure to sound a note of caution about the whole pre-ownership experience.

 

[NigelM]

Just understand that it doesn't trump everything else for everyone else.

I didn't say, or even imply, that it did.

That doesn't change the fact that much of the rest of the car is sub-par.

That's your opinion (and you're entitled to it) but it's not mine.

 

[vfx]

... the shortcomings that smorgasbord pointed out (they are all legitimate problem areas .......

Don't agree.

...The outside is too wide,

Opinion

...the inside is too low.

What? I read one review that complained there was no foot well in the rear for passenger's feet. +And if it's too low, why are 6'+rs hitting their heads?

...The door handles are annoying.

Opinion

....It's sunroof has a thick prison bar going across the middle

Shame on Tesla for opting on a safer car in a rollover.

... It doesn't even have a low-MPH spare.

Along with 40% of all cars. Especially ones that are striving for efficiency.

...a small glove box,

Again, many cars have reduced the glove box to carrying gloves. Nothing new here.

...The rear windows don't roll down all the way.

Comes with swoopy design. Very common.

Funny that Tesla is unmatched in how they are pushing technology and even the laws of physics but by not including the off the shelf features of other cars that have been merely guilding the lilly for decades they can been seen as somehow subpar to some people.

 

[AnOutsider]

I understand people who think Tesla's drivetrain is so great, it doesn't matter if much of the rest of the car is sub-par.

That doesn't change the fact that much of the rest of the car is sub-par. The outside is too wide, the inside is too low. The mirrors aren't power folding. The door handles are annoying. It's sunroof has a thick prison bar going across the middle, and vision out the back is terrible. It doesn't have Park Distance Sensors. It's got the largest battery pack, yet has only one lighter socket and a couple of USBs and you can't even run a standard 110v inverter. It doesn't even have a low-MPH spare. It's got a ton of cargo space, but no door pockets, a small glove box, and no storage in the center console. The rear windows don't roll down all the way. For all the technology, it doesn't have heads-up display, auto-parking, collision avoidance, night vision, or even adaptive cruise control. Heck, even the key fob is awkward to carry around. The touchscreen is cool in many ways, but I think the jury's still out on having to go through menus to get to functionality.

So, yeah, it's electric, fast and smooth. If you want to say that trumps everything else I won't argue. Just understand that it doesn't trump everything else for everyone else.

In a not-so-critical manner... I agree. The Model S is a great first step. It's definitely the best ELECTRIC car out IMO. It's a downgrade in many other ways for anyone who was thinking it would be a lateral move from other brands (Audi, Mercedes etc).

 

[ckessel]

Smorgasbord listed a bunch of things, some subjective and some not, things that are generally desirable and not unusual to expect of higher end cars in the luxury market niche. I'm disturbed by the level of hostility he's gotten for making a rather measured and unaggressive post.

Tesla has missed a number of expectations (whether reasonable or not) and I've seen a rising level of hostility on TMC towards anyone critical of that. Such aggression makes TMC look bad, like it's simply full of "fanboys". These forums were a much better community 12-18 months ago.