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Car & Driver: The Mach E is simply better than the Model Y
- Thread starter FordMME
- Start date
I’m not ignoring posts. I check in sporadically but there is a lot to keep up with. If you want to label me a troll that’s fine. If you have read my posts, you’ll see that I acknowledge Tesla strengths and Mach E weaknesses. I find the tribalism stupid and tedious. So no, I’m not going to respond to every post in this thread. Too time consuming.
The EV 1000: 11 EVs Face Off in a Long-Distance Race
A 1000-mile race reveals what it's like to drive an EV long distances in 2021.www.caranddriver.com
From C/D from which you’ve posted on this platform quite a few times:
About 50 miles north of Morgantown, the Mach-E's fast start was falling apart in a spectacular string of charging failures. An EVgo station refused to work for more than a minute at a time, eating up a half-hour before the drivers moved on. With 6 percent battery charge, the Mach-E crawled 10 miles to another EVgo unit and had the same problem. The team then crossed the street and hooked up to a Level 2 station.
So again, per C/Ds own recount of a road trip with a Mach E, the statement I posted seems contradictory with its own findings. I’m really not sure how that’s debatable.
It is a much better looking car than the “understated” MY. I can’t speak to EVGo. Don’t have those in my area. The EA and ChargePoint stations have worked great for me, now. Not initially.FORDMME will translate that to “it’s a much better looking car”
The larger point is that the Mach E was never going to win a race like this even if the chargers had worked. As I’ve said, the Teslas charge faster and have a broader network in at least some areas. So points to Tesla, though I’d respectfully submit that a 1,000 mile cannonball run is a pretty irrelevant metric.
C&D seem to think so, too, given their pick for EV of the Year despite Tesla’s edge in public charging. Again, public charging is ONE factor of a multi-factor analysis that goes into picking an EV.
C/Ds point exactly was that with the growing non-Tesla network, there was little reason to own a Tesla. If you are inferring that after 2-3 hours of driving coming across charging stations that won’t work wouldn’t be frustrating outside of a cannonball run, then frankly I think you aren’t being very truthful in your communications on this platform. The supercharger network is absolutely a huge advantage on a road trip, and far from a irrelevant metric, considering that the lack of range/charging/speed and recharging infrastructure are some of the main issues ICE drivers have with converting to EVs. Which you have admitted, is kind of the point.
What C/D wrote by definition was contradictory based on their own experience and text about the product, not yours-so I’m not sure why you are blending the two here.
So if C/Ds findings about the Mach E are gospel, than their experience with charging on the road (uneven) is certainly the same, so your experience by the standards you set, irrelevant.
C/D also thought the Escape was cover worthy over a Mazda Miata RF.
Again, Motor Trend and Top Gear both picked the Model Y over the Mach E. What makes their testing methods or conclusions inferior?
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jelloslug
Active Member
He like the way they look.
I didn’t say they were inferior. In fact I never mentioned them at all. People are entitled to come to different opinions. The Motor Trend review actually acknowledges many of the pros and cons to both vehicles - it simply puts greater weight on different things, particularly the charging network. It also was comparing Ford’s included CoPilot360 to Tesla’s $10,000 Full Self Driving package - not exactly apples to apples.
The Mach E looks nicer. Look, you can argue that until you’re blue in the face, and of course looks are subjective - to an extent. But if you seriously contend that the MY looks better than the MME, I’m going to discount the rest of your conclusions accordingly. You’ve got to be capable of giving credit where it is due.
The Mach E drives smoother and quieter - even Motor Trend acknowledged this. The seats and interior materials are plusher and more refined.
Whether you like the Tesla’s more austerely minimal interior to Ford’s more familiar knobs and buttons is entirely subjective. I’ll say only that the volume knob is very convenient for quick movements - better than the steering wheel rollers. The Mach driver instrument cluster is a major plus - there is a reason the X and S include that, but sadly the M and Y do not.
The Mach E is a significantly better value thanks to the $7,500 tax credit.
Difference in rear cargo and frunk capacity is negligible and seems to depend entirely on what luggage is used for the test - as several reviews have differed as to which car can hold more.
The MY is a tad quicker because it is lighter, but you get a rougher, noisier ride as a result. The Tesla infotainment system is smoother and better designed, though at the expense of being required to be used to control virtually every aspect of the car. Again, maybe you like that, but not even being able to open a glovebox without using the touch screen borders on the absurd.
Charging network favors the Tesla. For now. I expect that difference will be negligible within a couple years.
Here are Motor Trends findings. They compared to very similar trims, which would actually make it's 'test' far more data trustworthy:
On the interior space, which would be important for families:
Hop from the Ford to the Tesla, and the Model Y stands out for the ample space it devotes to people and their stuff. "Cargo space is ridiculously impressive, with a deep (3.1-cubic-foot) hidden area under the floor," Loh said. "The seats fold flat, too, and I feel like I could camp in the car." Rear passengers also have more foot- and legroom in the Model Y—the Tesla's front seats are situated on risers in part to provide more toe space to rear riders—and have access to two USB-C ports and their own air vents. The Mach-E also serves up two USB ports (in this case one Type-A and one Type-C) and air vents for rear passengers, but there's limited foot room, especially for the middle passenger, and the rear middle seat has stiffer cushions and is less comfortable overall. The Mach-E's frunk is also a tad smaller than the Model Y's. So although the Mach-E measures objectively larger, the Model Y's space ultimately seems more usable.
On Technology, software usability of the UX display which could be important to early adopters/tech driven customers:
Ford's dual-screen approach is more conventional and simpler to adjust to, its primary display has beautiful high-resolution graphics, and the screen's real estate truly feels expansive. Wireless CarPlay and Android Auto are standard here, and unlike in the Tesla, there's a volume knob. Despite these positives, the Model Y wins on usability. Tesla's interface is designed in such a way that you can split the screen between, say, the navigation map and another function without having to dig through menus; similarly, frequent tasks such as looking for Superchargers are almost always just one tap away. Ford's system will locate chargers and tell you if they're available, but this is buried behind several taps, and the infotainment software takes a little time to load results or respond to certain requests.
On Charging, which is very important to converting ICE drivers, and some current EV owners depending on driving habits:
How long an electric vehicle takes to charge is likely second only to overall range among EV shoppers' considerations, but providing an answer depends on the type of charger, the rating of an EV's onboard charger, and the vehicle's layout and battery size.
Tesla's extensive Supercharger network supplies power at up to 250 kW, with the Model Y's onboard charger capable of accepting that full rate. During our time with Tesla's crossover, we charged the battery from near empty to about 75 percent in 35 minutes using a 250-kW Supercharger—that's about 230 miles of added range. And using the Supercharger was quick and easy: plug in, juice up, and go, as the station automatically charges your Tesla account.
The Mach-E has access to a broader grid of public chargers from various companies, but their charging speeds vary. The Mustang Mach-E can receive power at up to 150 kW, which means its fastest rate is slower than the Model Y's. (Think of the kW rating of a charger as akin to the diameter of a pipe.) Using an Electrify America 150-kW DC fast-charging station, Ford says you can add about 50 miles of range in approximately 10 minutes. (That works out to 175 miles in the same 35-minute timeframe used above, starting with a similarly discharged battery.) We needed to use a 50-kW EVgo charger, however, so it took us about an hour and 45 minutes to go from 45 miles of range to 215, though to be fair, that includes time spent both using the FordPass app to connect to the charger—an extra, unnecessary step with the Tesla—and dealing with power-delivery interruptions by the charger and error messages generated by the app. The charger problems weren't the Mach-E's fault, but they were frustrating.
Summary
Ford's first serious, stand-alone EV has indeed put up a hell of a fight, and as more such models hit the streets—and especially as legacy carmakers gain critical electric vehicle experience—Tesla might find itself playing catch-up. Just not on this day. Loh said it best: "When you move from the Mach-E to the Model Y, you feel like you've taken a step forward into the future. The impact of that step is smaller thanks to the amazing job Ford's done, but there's no similar sense of wonder when you go from Model Y to Mach-E." The Ford Mustang Mach-E has much to recommend it, and the 480 hp/600 lb-ft GT model arriving soon may turn the tables, but the Tesla Model Y takes this head-to-head comparison test by a nose.
So as I stated before, Ford went with more of a 'Sporty SUV' direction-as acceleration, rear seat space, comfort, towing capacity, software support/integration, charging speed & network are all in favor of the Model Y. Again, the 'wins' for Ford--ride control, steering feel, legacy design, panel gap integrity-are expected, and might be important for some buyers. The question is it important vs the Tesla advantages, and according to M/T, it's no.
So what are your issues with M/Ts testing methods?
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But the M/T test compared the same trim levels. M/T didn't experience the same issues with handling that C/D did. Let's compare what C/D emphasized:
C/D:
Turning the Y's small-diameter steering wheel requires lots of effort to get it to turn. We're fine with high efforts, so long as the force is communicative and natural, but the Y's is rather numb. Once you deviate from going straight and start bending into corners, the Y becomes a bit nervous and darty, vectoring and re-vectoring like a poorly tuned video-game controller. Drive the Y hard and it seems out of step, like there is a glitch in software.
M/T:
Unlike the Mach-E, the Model Y allows drivers to individually mix and match settings for acceleration (Chill and Standard), brake feel (Standard and Low), and steering (Comfort, Standard, and Sport).The Tesla's Sport steering doesn't feel as heavy as the Mach-E's in Unbridled mode, but it does add noticeably more resistance in comparison to Comfort.
So, C/D didn't even get into the driving modes of the Tesla. So C/Ds conclusions, by definition, are less informed than M/T and thus have a higher margin of error.
C/D on the 'Lows' of the Tesla:
Lows: Disconnected chassis, troublesome build quality, single screen for all controls still doesn't work.
Speaking of 'subjective' so are C/Ds lows of the Tesla vs. any other media outlet that has tested it. Both publications tested and mentioned the steering.
For background, M/T didn't say the interior of the Ford was "plusher and more refined"
M/T:
Tesla started the tech-focused cabin trend, but most electric vehicles now follow that template, including the Mach-E. Although the Ford's interior feels warmer than the Tesla's, it borrows ideas such as hidden air vents and a large central screen while mixing in familiar Blue Oval parts like the rotary gear selector. It also adds a second screen to serve as an instrument cluster, which the Tesla lacks. "The cabin offers a clean, fresh-feeling execution for a Ford," Loh said, adding that the handsome gray cloth on the dash and speakers brought a premium feel.
What you said M/T stated about the seats are again, not true:
The Mach-E also serves up two USB ports (in this case one Type-A and one Type-C) and air vents for rear passengers, but there's limited foot room, especially for the middle passenger, and the rear middle seat has stiffer cushions and is less comfortable overall.
So that was the only mention of the seats in the M/T comparison.
M/T on the central screen on the Model Y:
In the Model Y, as with all Teslas, the screen serves as the command center of the car, being used not only for the usual navigation and audio functions but also for tasks like adjusting the power side mirrors and steering wheel or finding a Supercharger station near you. While having all of these functions in one screen could be distracting, Tesla's clean, simple layout is easy to use and parse at a glance, and the software running the show is quick to respond. Here, perhaps more than anywhere else, is where Tesla's Silicon Valley DNA shines through.
So again, by your logic, M/T findings supersede yours regarding UX design preferences.
Per M/T, the Tesla has more usable rear room. See above. They are the subject matter experts remember?
The Tesla isn't as well damped (i.e. what you describe as 'rougher') due to it's dampers. I know 14 handling engineers, including one who just joined Tesla from Genesis who can change the ride balance of the Tesla and have it in production in 8 months. I've driven a Ohms equipped Model Y and it had a world class ride. Suspension is a hell of a lot easier to address than possible hardware or network charging issues, and that again isn't debatable. More weight isn't best for a great ride. So I bet on that getting fixed just as easily if we can hand wave product advantages away with speculation, as you've done with the Tesla charging network.
I can't speak to the value of the tax credit unless I know the deprecation curve of the Mach E over 24 months. And you can't either so if the Tesla has the charging network, software advantage, can tow and deprecates at a lower % (which can all but wipe out the credit with an additional 10% of deprecation per year based on the Mach Es pricing vs the Tesla Y) how is it a better value when taking in mind true cost of ownership, which is a more accurate indicator of money spent/saved=value?
Again, the matter experts found the back seat more comfortable in the Tesla and more usable cargo room.
You've stated no issue with C/D not making an apples to apples comparison, so why the mention of the M/T discrepancy? Strange.
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Sorry, I don’t have the energy to answer these insanely long posts. You and Motor Trend are obviously right. C&D and my own eyes are obviously wrong. The MY is clearly the superior vehicle. Glad we’ve settled this.
CyberGus
Not Just a Member
Whatever you think of the MY or MME, Car and Driver has a history of bias against Tesla.
CyberGus
Not Just a Member
In the C&D Comparison, they downplayed the value of objective criteria in Tesla's favor, like space and performance, while elevating subjective elements like styling and appearance (and unsurprisingly giving the edge to Ford).
Either of these fine EVs are still better than any ICE car. But the C&D article is content-free ("a bunch of "hooey" as they say around these here parts, or "a big nothingburger" as the kids say).
Either of these fine EVs are still better than any ICE car. But the C&D article is content-free ("a bunch of "hooey" as they say around these here parts, or "a big nothingburger" as the kids say).
CyberGus
Not Just a Member
I'll see your Tax Credit and raise you a $10,000 "Market Adjustment".
CyberGus
Not Just a Member
You're not wrong, some non-Beta Tesla features feel a bit premature sometimes. But, does that make OTA upgrade capability a net negative? Tesla pushes out regular updates, while every car I've ever owned has sent me exactly zero updates. So it seems like a good thing generally.
Of course, I could make a similar argument about CarPlay and Android Auto: their availability deters further development effort into integrated features that overlap. Tesla built a best-in-class integrated Nav out of necessity. Is 3rd-party capability a feature, or a liability?
It was also reported here that the Ford handsfree system allows you to be handsfree and is a superior system to AP.
Via this test, Ford allowed you to not have your hand on without warning for 12 seconds. The Tesla: 52 seconds.
Via this test, Ford allowed you to not have your hand on without warning for 12 seconds. The Tesla: 52 seconds.
No those were two different questions. But feel free to answer why this timed test goes against your own account within this thread.
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US consumers have been deciding with their wallets. It's similar all over the world. Europeans are finally going to get MY ~18 months after North America and ~6 months after Asia.
cleantechnica.com
All Ford, VW/Audi/Porsche, GM, ...etc... have to do is build better vehicles.
Tesla Model 3 & Model Y Still Dominate US Electric Car Sales (Charts) - CleanTechnica
Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! I love seeing the tremendous growth of electric vehicle sales in Europe, which is likely to achieve more than 10% of new car sales being plugin vehicle sales this year, but there is something ... [continued]
cleantechnica.com
All Ford, VW/Audi/Porsche, GM, ...etc... have to do is build better vehicles.
So you want just a 30 second summary?
C/Ds findings where completely atypical of two other publications in key areas that awarded the Ford ‘ev of the year’ per C/D and waved away a key disadvantage for the Ford with an contradictory statement. It’s pretty simple.
Your hyperbolic responses aside, I stated that these products were close.
I count functionality of car driving over the ability to be hands free. It is ridiculous when they just use the “hands free” as a metric.
Until self driving is much better, I think everyone should always keep their hand on the wheel and is actually better than eye tracking by itself. You can feel what the car is doing and take over much quicker if needed. Especially at highway speeds. Ideally the car should do eye tracking AND require hands on the wheel for now.
I’m beginning to see this pattern of ignoring selective information that doesn’t fit a narrative. I’ve said these products are pretty closely as just products, with the Ford more on the scale of a sporty SUV.
it’s claims about the network being The auxiliary items favor Tesla and it isn’t really close at the moment. That’s the difference.
I carefully read the summary of all the vehicles in the ‘EV of the year’—- ‘Thanks to Electrify Americas recent work, there’s a nationwide charging network that makes long trips not just possible but tolerable.’
Based on customer feedback and the lack of experience C/D relayed regarding the Mach E with the EA network, not to mention C/Ds own experience with charging on a road trip this isn’t true. The poster tried the ‘subjective’ argument. But that statement isn’t subjective.
Fun fact: The panel gap integrity on the Y (I measured) measure better than the the Mustang GT350. The S550 Mustang has some of the most sloppy modern day tolerances I’ve seen. The 5Th Gen Camaro has near concept car panel gap spacing-down to 3mm in some cases. C/D mentions about panel gaps out of almost a dozen Mustang or Camaro tests: 1.
Sports car drivers overall will care more about the fit and finish of their vehicles. That C/D has failed to mention the S550 panel gap issues vs. the Model 3 isn’t subjective. It’s math. So there is a lack of consistency when this publication reviews products. Which is kinf
ICE drivers get annoyed when the chip reader at a gas station isn’t working. Does this person really think driving around to find a working charger on a road trip isn’t going to be annoying? And yet C/D stated that the Ford was the car to transition them.
So I guess Car & Driver didn't drive down any hills on the superior Mach-E.
Steep Downhills Locking-Up Mach-Es
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