Changes coming, but what does this all mean?

[starise]

I don't think those who bought FSD are looking for a payout from a legal battle. They want the best working program they can get. Most of them are ok with the way the program works now, welcoming improvements. And TBH that program has come a long way and is very effective for long commutes on open roads. If this wasn't the case all of them would be lined up at Tesla for a full refund.

If Tesla had said there are going to be limitations between HW3 and HW4 going forward, I think that's an acceptable and expected admission. Tech never stands still. The point of contention is there were software udates to make the functions better, but now we have a major hardware update. It would be like running windows 10 and updating to windows 11 only one of your computers is too old for win 11 so it needs replaced.

I don't know where Tesla is headed here, but to charge the same price for FSD both before and after hardware upgrades doesn't seem like a good business decision. Unless there is a disclaimer in the software purchase stating there is no guarantee at time of purchase, hardware upgrades will not cause your purchase to be either less effective or obsolete as a result of the existing car, then those customers are owed every improvement those after the change recieved. They obviously can't deliver on this, but they could offer benefits or discounts to those older customers who aren't technically old customers yet because HW4 hasn't been fully implimented.

One thing I never understood was the idea of carrying FSD to another car. Why tie it to the car if the car is sold? Simply allow users to update through a new car purchase, unless they opt to give it to the new owner for some reason.

So they are in a bit of a mess with some of these decisions. If they want to keep customers they need to take care of them. Announcing HW4 right after selling 1 million cars that won't have it or removing USS isn't any way to do that, especially knowing the two systems are not cross compatible. It's like saying , " You just ordered a new car from us, congratulations, you are driving old tech already and we will have better cars soon." Thanks Tesla.

Then I have heard talk the model 2 might offer free FSD as a part of the package. If true, I'm sure that one doesn't sit well for those who payed for it.

 

[ewoodrick]

Then I have heard talk the model 2 might offer free FSD as a part of the package. If true, I'm sure that one doesn't sit well for those who payed for it.

I think that I'm pretty safe to say that the Model 2 including FSD is a complete fabrication. Why would they make the car cheaper than anything else AND give it more capabilities.

OMG, I can see the forums now blooming with BS.

 

[starise]

I think that I'm pretty safe to say that the Model 2 including FSD is a complete fabrication. Why would they make the car cheaper than anything else AND give it more capabilities.

OMG, I can see the forums now blooming with BS.

I hope it was a fabrication. The idea behind the comment was to say that the new platform could be a basis for robo taxi which would truly be a fully autonimous vehicle. Still doesn't make sense. I aplologize, I should check and confirm my sources better. I threw it out there in case anyone could confirm such a crazy idea.

OTOH I can see some sense in it "if" in the future Tesla is up against 3 other EVs in similar price brackets in the future ( very likey) , their EVs aren't moving or sales has dropped. It would be a very tasty carrot. Noone else has anything even remotely close to the auto pilot feature so far as what it does.

What I would really like to see is for it to be drastically discounted so the rest of us could afford it. The only question then is how to repay those who payed a mint for it in the beginning. As I understand it FSD full purchase has no expiration date. Maybe they could knock 15K off of their next Tesla or something similar in addition to letting them have FSD in the new car. Sounds about fair.

 

[ewoodrick]

I hope it was a fabrication. The idea behind the comment was to say that the new platform could be a basis for robo taxi which would truly be a fully autonimous vehicle. Still doesn't make sense. I aplologize, I should check and confirm my sources better. I threw it out there in case anyone could confirm such a crazy idea.

OTOH I can see some sense in it "if" in the future Tesla is up against 3 other EVs in similar price brackets in the future ( very likey) , their EVs aren't moving or sales has dropped. It would be a very tasty carrot. Noone else has anything even remotely close to the auto pilot feature so far as what it does.

What I would really like to see is for it to be drastically discounted so the rest of us could afford it. The only question then is how to repay those who payed a mint for it in the beginning. As I understand it FSD full purchase has no expiration date. Maybe they could knock 15K off of their next Tesla or something similar in addition to letting them have FSD in the new car. Sounds about fair.

It will get cheaper eventually. But before it get's cheaper it has to exist and then someone else has to create some competition. That's definitely not an end-of-year timeframe.

BTW, those in the beginning didn't pay a mint. It's only been at $15k for about a half year, $12k for the 9 months before then and even less than before them.

 

[702sunk]

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys think Tesla is still offering HW3 models with FSD beta option without USS if FSD cannot be used to its full capacity on HW3 models? Could this mean they are testing FSD for both HW3 and HW4 to perfect it?

 

[Matias]

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys think Tesla is still offering HW3 models with FSD beta option without USS if FSD cannot be used to its full capacity on HW3 models? Could this mean they are testing FSD for both HW3 and HW4 to perfect it?

 

[ewoodrick]

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys think Tesla is still offering HW3 models with FSD beta option without USS if FSD cannot be used to its full capacity on HW3 models? Could this mean they are testing FSD for both HW3 and HW4 to perfect it?

Tesla doesn't sell FSD Beta. They only sell a promise for FSD. If you buy FSD, then you have the option to participate in the beta, although there are many FSD owners who don't.

Elon has made it well known that the early Model S was being built for one main reason, to subsidize the next car, the Model 3. And Tesla owners (especially the ones not in the last few years) knew that they were purchasing FSD as a means to help fund the development of it.

So yes, we've known for years that we are testing it. And I'm proud to be a part of that testing process!!!

 

[SPF]

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys think Tesla is still offering HW3 models with FSD beta option without USS if FSD cannot be used to its full capacity on HW3 models? Could this mean they are testing FSD for both HW3 and HW4 to perfect it?

Uhhh...it's obvious. Tesla wants your money and does not care if you actually get what you paid for.

 

[starise]

Today should tell us more. What they say and what they end up actually doing are two different things sometimes. On one hand they want to pacify their current HW3 users while also improving with HW4, so as I see it they are sort of forced to develop for two platforms now. This does not seem typical for Tesla since they are all about efficiency. Why not make HW4 an expansion from HW3? They decided to break the continuity here in the name of progress, but we aren't talking some inexpensive year to year modification here between years. This is a big deal, and the bigger of a deal it is the more it distances itself from HW3. So we now have a 'lesser' and a more capable FSD.
There could be yet another itineration of something that looks like FSD, but it could be different enough that it can't be compared to what we have now. In that way they could carry it forward and not alienate older customers who bought into it.

 

[ewoodrick]

Why not make HW4 an expansion from HW3? They decided to break the continuity herein the name of progress, but we aren't talking some inexpensive year to year modification here between years.

This is easy, if they add more cameras, that's more connections. That wire isn't in the existing harnesses.
I think that Elon would tell you that reuse is good where it make sense. But if it doesn't make sense, it's time to cut bait and switch.

But again, FSD is still being promised on HW3. And even better, this is a recent confirmation that they still are expecting FSD.

 

[qdeathstar]

There may be a vision update that enables park sensing on your vehicle to be marginally useful. No one knows when.

HW4 will make your vehicle depreciate more quickly.

There will be no upgrade path.

Look on the bright side. At least you didn’t purchase in late 2022 when prices were sky high.

Glide really hates Tesla and is negative about everything related to Tesla, however this post seems to be spot on, unfortunately. I wouldn’t buy a Tesla right now.

 

[qdeathstar]

I think that I'm pretty safe to say that the Model 2 including FSD is a complete fabrication. Why would they make the car cheaper than anything else AND give it more capabilities.

OMG, I can see the forums now blooming with BS.

Only if you could only lease the car, and not own it. New leased model 2 comes with fsd, then Tesla sell it used, possibly require subscription.

 

[glide]

Glide really hates Tesla and is negative about everything related to Tesla, however this post seems to be spot on, unfortunately. I wouldn’t buy a Tesla right now.

I think you’ll find most of my posts are spot on. I don’t “hate Tesla”, I just don’t give them a free pass for all the anti-consumer nonsense they pull.

This, sadly, isn’t anywhere close to the first instance of them behaving in this manner.

There are still fanbois on this site who believe in flying robotaxis.

 

[starise]

This is easy, if they add more cameras, that's more connections. That wire isn't in the existing harnesses.
I think that Elon would tell you that reuse is good where it make sense. But if it doesn't make sense, it's time to cut bait and switch.

But again, FSD is still being promised on HW3. And even better, this is a recent confirmation that they still are expecting FSD.

IOW They couldn't add it to an existing HW3 car without modification. Modification kits could have been sold including the new board, additional cameras and harnesses needed for additional cameras, but I think it's just something Tesla didn't want to bother with. Potential legal issues involved if it isn't installed by a factory trained tech. If something goes wrong it could be catastrophic. All systems must be exactly the same with no variations in the way the cameras need to see.
It could work if they made such a kit. I suspect it had more to do with the legal aspects of it in addition to freeing up enough factory trained manpower in an already thin spread service situation to make it feasible. They also want to sell more new cars. If I had an aging Tesla it might mean the difference between me trading up to a newer car.

 

[ewoodrick]

Only if you could only lease the car, and not own it. New leased model 2 comes with fsd, then Tesla sell it used, possibly require subscription.

Who said anything about leasing?

If Tesla is going for a cheap car, why would they make it arbitrarily more expensive?

 

[ewoodrick]

IOW They couldn't add it to an existing HW3 car without modification. Modification kits could have been sold including the new board, additional cameras and harnesses needed for additional cameras, but I think it's just something Tesla didn't want to bother with. Potential legal issues involved if it isn't installed by a factory trained tech. If something goes wrong it could be catastrophic. All systems must be exactly the same with no variations in the way the cameras need to see.
It could work if they made such a kit. I suspect it had more to do with the legal aspects of it in addition to freeing up enough factory trained manpower in an already thin spread service situation to make it feasible. They also want to sell more new cars. If I had an aging Tesla it might mean the difference between me trading up to a newer car.

You evidently have no reality in what replacing wiring harnesses and adding cameras to a vehicle would cost.

I had one car, the wiring harness got burned. The car was totaled.

All systems must be exactly the same with no variations in the way the cameras need to see.

Not really, that's why when you first get a car, the system has to go through some training.

 

[qdeathstar]

Who said anything about leasing?

If Tesla is going for a cheap car, why would they make it arbitrarily more expensive?

The monthly payments would be cheaper than the loan on a model 3. For people on a budget their monthly expenditure is what they focus on…

If you could lease a model 2 for 450/mo that would be much cheaper than the monthly loan payment on a model 3.

 

[ewoodrick]

The monthly payments would be cheaper than the loan on a model 3. For people on a budget their monthly expenditure is what they focus on…

If you could lease a model 2 for 450/mo that would be much cheaper than the monthly loan payment on a model 3.

Yea, works out the same on the Model 3 as well.

But $25,000 car + $15,000 FSD = $40,000. Basic Model 3 is $42,990.

Why in any world would Tesla want to risk the sales of their larger profit cars and give away FSD to the cheapest car.

It's like every other dealer does. Cheap car that is very basic. Which is effectively a loss leader to the basic cars with some features, then to the next car with more features and so on.

And if you take a peek at the Tesla website

That's $100 cheaper than your Model 2.

 

[Unclepaul]

Nobody wants FSD to become better and safer than having a Human at the wheel than Elon.

He is doing what he can to advance that technology, going so far as to installing the FSD hardware into every car, whether the customer pays for FSD or not. That good deed is what is causing all this negative feedback, and it isn't fair.

Everyone that buys a basic Tesla gets all the latest available hardware integrated into their cars. This allows the owner to upgrade later to FSD by paying a fee and clicking a box.

Those purchasing FSD have gotten free OTA software updates, that are advancing the technology as it becomes available. They will continue to get additional updates for free as long as that policy continues. Most other manufacturers require you to pay a hefty fee everytime their software gets updated (like in mapping GPS, etc)

From time to time, Tesla advances the state of the art hardware, and begins to integrate this into their newest production. This may require significant body modifications, mounting fixtures, and integration into the new vehicle. This is something that would be very hard and expensive to retrofit into previous production. When you purchase a new Tesla you get everything that is included in your configuration at the time it is produced. You do not get a promise that every single improvement will be reengineered to be retrofitted to your old car. Old cars get the software updated for free currently, but expecting all the hardware would be impracticle.

 

[Unclepaul]

Tesla could easily build a $25,000 Tesla. Take the existing Model 3. Install no FSD hardware, charge monthly for access to data, install a much smaller battery, slow down charging speeds, install much smaller tires and stamped steel wheels. Put in flimsy cloth seats, remove sound system, lower performance by installing a much smaller motor, take out autopilot, rubber mats instead of carpet, bare metal instead of carpet in trunk, shorten the warranty, install cheaper round head/tail lights, downgrade braking system, remove power seats, remove seat heaters, charge for all software updates, Make hood and hatch out of cheaper steel, eliminate access to Supercharger network, switch to manual window winders, etc.

Not sure how many would want that, but the current car offers a tremendous value as is.