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ChargeFox Ultra Rapid Network (350kW/HPC)

Chuq

Active Member
Jan 1, 2015
3,321
3,989
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Based on the article, they must have a way to prevent the Tritium chargers from all going full bore at the same time. They have 180kW grid plus 250kW battery output. So, the aggregate must stay below 430kW even though they have a total 750kW nameplate of chargers installed.

I'm aware of a couple of 2x 350 kW sites which have a grid connection of 500 kW. In reality, two Model 3s at full speed ~ 380 kW, two Ioniq 5s (when they are here) at full speed ~ 450 kW. It would only be if two Porsche Taycans were there at the same time (and they were both at low SOC and all other environmental factors were optimal) where the site power supply would be limiting factor.
 
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cafz

Member
Jul 17, 2020
370
341
Australia
Also interesting, there seems to be at least 9 individual charging sessions in that chart, and Plugshare has a grand total of one check-in for that day. Not really very surprising I suppose, but gives a sense of the proportion of users that check-in.
 

QBN_PC

Member
Feb 11, 2020
282
287
Queanbeyan
This is interesting from Chargefox, showing the utilisation of the battery at the Goulburn site when supporting total charging loads several times in excess of the site's grid connection capacity: Evan Beaver on LinkedIn: #PowerCache #evcharging #batteryenergystorage

1615703060536
If this is AEMO time, and not local time, that last charging session on the right is my SR+. That evening I was charging there from 19:14-19:38 DST.

Wasn’t much of a charge though - 49% to 86%

As for checking in, if the site is rated at 10, I’m charging normally, I’m staying near the car (willing to move on a partial charge), or a second port is available anyway, I don’t bother checking in. It gets excessive.

Just last weekend I charged at Shell Cove twice, Fairy Meadow twice, Goulburn Chargefox once, Goulburn Supercharger once, Shellharbour Square once (twice if you count a fault, switching from a destination charger to ChargePoint), Miranda Fair once (it was an abortion, I forgot to confirm it was charging and I accidentally plugged into the faulty one), and also a solid charge on an extension lead while I was asleep all Saturday afternoon.

Also, I did two drive-bys. One at Fairy Meadow (Sunday lunchtime - in use by a Nissan LEAF - I didn’t leave a comment & he wasn’t checked in, but I wasn’t in a hurry to drive home, so I visited the car wash across the tracks to deal with some bird droppings, and he was done by the time I returned). The other was at Goulburn Chargefox (Chargefox van was charging and some Hyundai had just arrived - so I left a supportive comment but not one that’d drop its rating below 10, and supercharged instead).
 
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Vostok

Active Member
Jul 1, 2017
1,526
1,602
Sydney
Just last weekend I charged at Shell Cove twice, Fairy Meadow twice, Goulburn Chargefox once, Goulburn Supercharger once, Shellharbour Square once (twice if you count a fault, switching from a destination charger to ChargePoint), Miranda Fair once (it was an abortion, I forgot to confirm it was charging and I accidentally plugged into the faulty one), and also a solid charge on an extension lead while I was asleep all Saturday afternoon.
OK... I’ll bite. Charging 9 times in a weekend?
 

QBN_PC

Member
Feb 11, 2020
282
287
Queanbeyan
OK... I’ll bite. Charging 9 times in a weekend?
Part time Uber driver with a mother in poor health on the far side of a far more lucrative Uber territory than where I actually live. 1600km a week, mostly during weekend graveyard hours when literally nobody else wants to use a charger. Slightly cheaper in a Tesla than in a Yaris. And the Tesla doesn't make the drunks puke 3x a month (once in 55 weeks - and he was very much ready to puke before boarding). No jarring transmission. I used to have to do an upholstery cleanup monthly when they missed or didn't bother to use the supplied barf bags.

Shellharbour Square and Miranda Fair delivered barely any power at all. I landed faulty ports at both. So that’s 7 times in a weekend. I can get by on 5-6 charges, but I don’t want to make a habit of deep-cycling the battery (even though I kinda had to for all those months Shell Cove was faulty).

Goulburn Chargefox 39-89%
Shell Cove Chargefox 22-89%
Shellharbour Square 46-60%
Fairy Meadow 39-65%
Miranda Fair 43-50%
Mum’s 48-89%
Shell Cove Chargefox 21-89%
Fairy Meadow 31-88%
Goulburn Supercharger 9-68%

Usually I’ll do 2 serious AC charges per weekend, usually on 3-phase, during in-car nap time. Barely happened last weekend as I overslept dramatically at other times, plus Shellharbour Square’s single-phase charger tripped after an hour. It’s more efficient to combine the two functions when you’re driving that much. 3-4 hour naps are great with YouTube Red running sounds of nature videos on full screen, and the climate control going.
 
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QBN_PC

Member
Feb 11, 2020
282
287
Queanbeyan
...So for over a year I've operated 40-50 uber rides weekly. Mostly in Wollongong. A couple in Wagga, Hunter Valley, Dubbo, Orange. Even Sydney sometimes ;-)

It's rare that I carry someone who's been in an EV before. And if they're a repeat rider, that's even better, as they've considered everything they asked on the previous ride.

4 out of 5 riders is intrigued or outright excited about it. Many of them fire off all the usual questions. I've gone over all the usual answers so many times I can disempower just about any of the critics. Last weekend I had a coal miner from Tahmoor who felt he needed to paint himself as the good guy as he worked in coking coal. Yeah, no. If someone's obviously on the blue collar side of the fence, I'll outright say I don't care if the power comes from coal, so long as it comes from Australia. That one alone shatters the critics usual arguments. And to be honest, I kinda don't care. I'm not a purist. Don't put the cart before the horse.

There's usually a "Wow, that screen is so big, you could watch movies on it!" "Only when it's in park. It's got YouTube, Netflix and Twitch. Comes in handy if you're stuck at a slow charger!"

Then I'll use the MCU to plot long trips to a distant destination of their choice. If someone says Brisbane I'll usually plot a trip to Gympie. Though Byron Bay is popular. Melbourne is kinda boring. Anyway, their eyes light up as they realise the supercharger stops aren't too frequent or too long. And then I'll say that there are alternative chargers along the highway that are cheaper and slightly faster, if you know where to look. And if they want to engage on that, I'll also mention aussie made and aussie owned.

If I haven't got that far, they'll always ask "How long does it take to charge the car?" "Usually about 10 seconds, I plug it in at home & go to sleep. Next morning it's good for about six hours of Uber driving. But if that's not enough, there's a seriously good charger down at Shell Cove under the new Woolworths. It'll give this car a solid charge in 37 minutes." "Six hours?" "Yeah, though on highways and freeways the wind resistance kills it, hence the funny door handles. I'll only get 2½ hours before I have to charge. But fast chargers are everywhere, and by the time you've had a bathroom break, a coffee, maybe a meal, you're good to go".

Many of my riders are tradies. I'll ask if they saw the launch of the Cybertruck - "the one with the broken windows". Many have. I'll talk about the onboard 240 volts so you're not sucking down generator fumes at work sites. I'll talk how the electric vault cover makes it hard to ever have tools stolen again. I'll say it's just as fast as this car & about the same price. And if they haven't felt a solid plant on the accelerator, that'll happen at the next green light. They're utterly hooked. And I'll say stuff like "keep that old ute another year and see what's around then"

If that's not building up the business of charging companies like Chargefox, I don't know what is.
 

Vostok

Active Member
Jul 1, 2017
1,526
1,602
Sydney
...and on the back of that, they've sent out an email today declaring Cooma operational and Phase One of their rollout complete.
And also that they have stitched up deals with Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Porsche and Volvo to offer discounted charging on top of existing NRMA, RACV etc discounts. And these now apply network-wide. So if you’re an NRMA member and have one of the eligible car models, charging is half-price.

Telsa noticeably absent from the list.
 

moa999

2020 3 SR+ MSM
Mar 4, 2020
773
572
Sydney, AUS
Shame they don't say anything about where next.

Still at 20 sites in 2 years they've done a decent job.
Tesla by comparison at 37 sites in 6.5yrs (although probably add another 4 in the next month)
 
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Chuq

Active Member
Jan 1, 2015
3,321
3,989
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
I'm guessing Chargefox has submitted a few applications for funding under the ARENA Future Fuels Grant program. One of the conditions is that sites cannot have been previously announced. If they plan to use this funding to establish additional ultra-rapid sites then that would explain their silence.

The ARENA site says

Offer to Negotiate or Full Application Outcome: ARENA aims to issue outcome letters before 30 May, 2021.
ARENA expects to finalise negotiation of Funding Agreements for successful Applicants by 30 June, 2021.

So I'm guessing negotiations are underway and we should see a variety of announcements (from various organisations) over the next couple of months.
 
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ZeeDoktor

Member
Dec 3, 2019
211
360
Sydney
Just did a quick charge test at their ultra-fast charger in Zetland with my Model S. 3.532 kWh used, 3.38 kWh added, 3.53 kWh billed, $1.41 charged. 95% efficiency, so actual price per kWh is $0.42. Charged from 77% SOC to 80% at 46 kW.

I can't quite wrap my head around though why we're being charged at least 100% markup on the wholesale electricity price they charge. I guess Chargefox are in the business of making money. Just an observation.

Does anyone know how that compares to Tesla's supercharger costs?
 

BCTS

Member
Feb 8, 2021
132
71
Melbourne
Just did a quick charge test at their ultra-fast charger in Zetland with my Model S. 3.532 kWh used, 3.38 kWh added, 3.53 kWh billed, $1.41 charged. 95% efficiency, so actual price per kWh is $0.42. Charged from 77% SOC to 80% at 46 kW.

I can't quite wrap my head around though why we're being charged at least 100% markup on the wholesale electricity price they charge. I guess Chargefox are in the business of making money. Just an observation.

Does anyone know how that compares to Tesla's supercharger costs?

There's a fairly significant capital expenditure in setting up a 350kw Charging Station.

I'm getting charged $0.32c with the 20% discount. Which is cheaper than Tesla... And generally faster on my Supercharger Limited Model S.
 
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Hairyman

Member
Jul 24, 2019
728
376
Australia
There's a fairly significant capital expenditure in setting up a 350kw Charging Station.

I'm getting charged $0.32c with the 20% discount. Which is cheaper than Tesla... And generally faster on my Supercharger Limited Model S.
My M3 started at 187kW from 21%, and was down to 80kW at 80% at that charger
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
2,932
1,365
QLD, Australia
Just did a quick charge test at their ultra-fast charger in Zetland with my Model S. 3.532 kWh used, 3.38 kWh added, 3.53 kWh billed, $1.41 charged. 95% efficiency, so actual price per kWh is $0.42. Charged from 77% SOC to 80% at 46 kW.

I can't quite wrap my head around though why we're being charged at least 100% markup on the wholesale electricity price they charge. I guess Chargefox are in the business of making money. Just an observation.

Does anyone know how that compares to Tesla's supercharger costs?
chargefox is dirt cheap. their slow dc chargers are only 20c and their dc fast chargers (in queensland) are only 40c.
Tesla supercharger is 52c/kwh (but tesla does not bill you for charging losses and auxillar power including HAVC) and Evie is 60c/kwh.
so significantly more expensive.
Evie is just slightly cheaper than using gasoline and more expensive than using diesel.
 
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cafz

Member
Jul 17, 2020
370
341
Australia
I can't quite wrap my head around though why we're being charged at least 100% markup on the wholesale electricity price they charge.
For very high power sites like this, the per-kW electricity usage charge is only a small fraction of what they end up being charged for electricity (in fact it's typically single digit c/kWh). The major part of the charge is demand charges, which are based on the highest half-hour usage in each month. This being the case, the effective per-kWh rate depends strongly on how much usage the sites see - the more sessions, the cheaper the electricity effectively is.

This reflects the economic reality that the cost of electricity at the point of use is dominated by the cost of the networks that transport the electricity rather than the cost of generation.

Does anyone know how that compares to Tesla's supercharger costs?
Tesla charges 51c/kWh right now. It's readjusted every few months though, apparently to keep the network breaking even (sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down).
 
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moa999

2020 3 SR+ MSM
Mar 4, 2020
773
572
Sydney, AUS
I can't quite wrap my head around though why we're being charged at least 100% markup on the wholesale electricity price they charge. I guess Chargefox are in the business of making money.
Pretty much... I don't think any of the third party companies are making money yet.. they are mostly reliant on grants from Fed Govt Arena and some State Govts.


They have to (typically) rent the site.
The install of those 350kW chargers is $100k+ ($40k + for 50kW), plus maintenance when people stretch cables or vandalism.
And on top of the wholesale price, you also need to cover demand charges (basically max draw out of a unit) - so an operator's worst case scenario is 2 cars arriving at a lightly used station at the same time.

As above Tesla is currently 51c/kWh.
In the past 12 months they've gone 42-52-47-51.

Chargefox is 32/40c/kWh (lower rate with roadside membership). Evie is 40/60c/kWh (higher rate for 350kW) and some of the lightly used Tas stations are even higher.
 
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