Chevy Bolt test mule photographed

[eloder]

My suspicion is that many people haven't forgiven GM for the EV1 debacle, and will probably always feel some residual ill will towards the company. It is pretty commonly known that the next generation LEAF from Nissan also targets this level of range, but there's nowhere near the antipathy (pretty close to none) towards Nissan and Carlos Ghosn.

The problem with the Bolt itself is that it is a bit odd looking along the lines of BMW i3 and Honda Element. There also appears to be no fast charging network that would enable convenient long distance travel. I just don't see an EV without long-distance capability as a Tesla competitor, even with 200 miles EPA range.

A 200 mile EPA car without a fast charging network still has extreme appeal, if the price is right.

The Leaf has a great amount of appeal and it's far under 200 mile EPA with no sizable fast charging network in the vast majority of the US. 200 mile EPA is really huge for people in cold climates, and it's great for people like me who will fly for most longer trips.

If cars are equal in all other respects, a Tesla would win out--but Tesla does indeed need to get a car out before that can happen.

 

[Tedkidd]

A 200 mile EPA car without a fast charging network still has extreme appeal, if the price is right.

The Leaf has a great amount of appeal and it's far under 200 mile EPA with no sizable fast charging network in the vast majority of the US. 200 mile EPA is really huge for people in cold climates, and it's great for people like me who will fly for most longer trips.

If cars are equal in all other respects, a Tesla would win out--but Tesla does indeed need to get a car out before that can happen.

Describe "extreme appeal" and "a great amount of appeal"? Does this appeal mean early majority, or just more early adopters?

EV's need to appeal to early majority to hit the tipping point. They certainly aren't doing that with 80 mile range cars. Secondary market value sucks, and that capital loss will not work (beautiful 3 year old Leaf's selling for $10k, Nissan bonusing people $7k to buy out leases...).

200 miles won't change that. By 2017 EV's need to be better in ALL ways, like Tesla is now. They need to be cars that maintain value as well as ICE when their leases come up. Expensive citicars will not do that. We need to convey this message to manufacturers.

Like you I'm an early adopter and EV influencer. I had a 2009 GEM for groceries and around town, and now I too own a Smart - which I love! I've sold 2 Mercedes and 3 Tesla to people who these cars weren't even on their radar, so imagine how many I've been proselytizing to. I don't think range without charging will cut it for more than enthusiasts.

So I completely disagree with the supposition the car will succeed without a built fast charging network. An "almost a real car" will not do it, definitely not at that price point. 10,000 cars a year maybe (another Volt like failure), not 100,000 a year. Early majority don't want any handicaps.


No F-in way I'm buying another handicapped car, by 2017 I won't be recommending them either. I'll be recommending against them.

I'm really interested in the Bolt. But if they don't hook up with Tesla and offer a Supercharger option (aka s60) there is no way I'm buying or recommending that car. If it were 2014 absolutely, but not in 2017. It will be bad advice.

 

[omarsultan]

What is the estimated battery size they are using?

GM has a not revealed that yet, but in the WSJ article written about the Bolt reveal, they write:

The pack for GM’s new vehicle could be built in LG Chem’s Holland, Mich., plant, where the Volt batteries currently are made by the same supplier. That plant would have a capacity to build about 60,000 Volt battery packs, or 20,000 of the larger packs for a new EV, or a mixture of the two.

From that, you could deduce the Bolt pack will be ~55kWh (the pack for Volt 2.0 is 18.4 kWh).

 

[WarpedOne]

55kWh is a number that qualifies a car for being a "real EV", not a misery one.
Other metrics are still important but anything carrying 55kWh is a real car with a real usability.

Anything under ~40kWh is a misery with very limited (longtime) usability. Not a car, but "city car", "second car" i.e. limited car.

Looks, price, speed of fast charging etc start to count and mean something. On a misery limited car they just add salt to injury.

 

[JRP3]

Good example with the Leaf. The attitude toward Nissan is a lot different even for somewhat similar cars (although the next-gen Leaf will likely be a compact with a mid-size in interior like the current one, not a subcompact with a subcompact/compact interior like the Bolt).

As a Nissan shareholder I'm very disappointed that they haven't advanced beyond the original LEAF. As a consumer I'm very disappointed that I can't buy something similar to their ESFlow concept car with at least 150 miles of range. They probably would have gotten my money instead of Tesla.

 

[WarpedOne]

Nissan has this joker of actually building a somewhat ground-up EV, worldwide, with bigger and bigger production year after year.
And they are also trying to build this somewhat fastcharging network, also worldwide.

They are far from optimal, very good etc but they at least are showing some real intent and doing some real work.

What real work regarding real EV has come form GM? Or anyone besides them and tesla?
Leaf can be accused of being weirdmobil, but it is nissan after all. Not one nissan is not a weirdmobil...

 

[scaesare]

Describe "extreme appeal" and "a great amount of appeal"? Does this appeal mean early majority, or just more early adopters?

I drive my Model S 99% of the time on my home-charge (i.e. without supercharging), and my daily driving needs average well under 200 miles. Ditto for my wife, and kids.

An EV that meets those needs would have great appeal in a lot of homes, even if there were no additional fast-charging network being built out other than what's already in-progress.

 

[EVNow]

So I completely disagree with the supposition the car will succeed without a built fast charging network. An "almost a real car" will not do it, definitely not at that price point. 10,000 cars a year maybe (another Volt like failure), not 100,000 a year. Early majority don't want any handicaps.

I completely disagree that a 200 mile Leaf 2 will sell 10k per year (when the 80 mile Leaf 1 sells 30k).

The Tesla model of company owned network is not the only model - just as highly controlled network of AOL was not the only model that could succeed. The chaotic but abundant network of chargers can quickly burry the "AOL" super charger network.

The idea that an EV has to be a long distance inter-city car to success is without foundation. Most Americans have multiple cars - they'll buy an EV and a ICE (or better a PHEV). They take the SUV PHEV for longer distance - after all they need more space when traveling long distance with family. Most families with corollas and civics do not use them for long distance travel.

Ofcourse Tesla USP is the supercharger - and they'll talk like people can't live without the superchargers. But we need to be more realistic about the world and not drink the kool-aid.

I've done 95% of my in the last 4 years in Leaf. So have a lot more people than the ones who own S.

 

[Ainkara]

I am a fan of Telsa (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum). I have test-driven an S, but had to be in a different state to do so as Tesla hasn't made it across the desert in the middle of our country yet (Think roughly NY to Seattle distance). Well, there are Tesla's here, just not Tesla service. I love the car, and would buy it if I could.

However...

In countries other than America that lovely tax incentive that you all keep talking about doesn't exist. Plus the conversion rate on currency means that the cheapest S I could get is upwards of $120,000 AUD. Plus our government right now are all idiots and seems to delight in blocking things like EV's and solar.

I want a Model 3, as an S is a gigantic car that I currently don't have any need for, apart from the fact that is electric and awesome. I need a smaller car.

With the new generation of cars coming out in the next few years, they are definitely more in line with what I want and can afford. I like small cars. I like cars the size of the Bolt. I would probably buy a car like that ahead of a 3, purely because it suits my needs better. I would prefer overall to support Tesla, because I think they are a 'better' company, and have done more to accelerate EV adoption than anyone else. But I would buy a Bolt, especially if they came out first (which is actually kind of unlikely for me given that I live forever away from everywhere). There are plenty of people like me who would buy it (I assume, I have no proof though).

Random gripe from all the articles about the Bolt; in Aus, that $37,500 turns into over $50,000, plus there are import charges and etc to get the car across the ocean. So possibly looking at high 50's to 60's. When it is reported as a '$30,000 car', it seems ok. Expensive still, but ok. Convert the currency, and suddenly it is a lot more prohibitive. For comparison I earn 64,000/year, which (in my mind at least) is a pretty well paying job. But to have to sink at least a years worth of salary into a car seems expensive to me.

The price needs to come down. I don't care who does it, I just hope someone will Either that or I have enough time to save the deposit for the 3 as soon as reservations open...

 

[SmartElectric]

The chaotic but abundant network of chargers can quickly burry the "AOL" super charger network.

Says no-one who is familiar with the poor state of function of CHAdeMO chargers deployed in my regional area.
The plugshare reviews of them are pathetic.

Compare that to the nearly perfect Tesla Supercharging sites in the north east that I used to go to NY and back recently.

I own two EV's, one isn't a Tesla, and I can tell you, charging is hit/miss. Tesla is getting it right, give them credit where credit is due, and don't sugar coat the efforts of others when they don't deserve it.

The next set of folks buying EV's will not stand for crap infrastructure, like us early adopters have been plagued with for years until Tesla came along and showed the way.

 

[EVNow]

Says no-one who is familiar with the poor state of function of CHAdeMO chargers deployed in my regional area.
The plugshare reviews of them are .

This is how exactly AOL vs open internet looked.

 

[JER]

This is how exactly AOL vs open internet looked.

Not really. Tesla has a good product.

AOL was never liked by anyone who knew what they were looking at.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Not really. Tesla has a good product.

AOL was never liked by anyone who knew what they were looking at.

I remember distinctly using AOL discs as coasters. People who didn't know would think that is the only way to access the internet, but overall the experience of using it wasn't really that great (and got progressively worse as the software bloated up and the company went through different changes).

 

[gregincal]

I remember distinctly using AOL discs as coasters. People who didn't know would think that is the only way to access the internet, but overall the experience of using it wasn't really that great (and got progressively worse as the software bloated up and the company went through different changes).

Yes, it really is a horrible comparison. Only people that didn't know what they were doing used AOL. Informed people would never use it. Supercharger is the exact opposite, since the more informed you are the more you realize the advantages.

 

[mknox]

I remember distinctly using AOL discs as coasters.

Yeah, AOL sucked. Compuserve all the way, baby!

 

[wws]

Yes, it really is a horrible comparison. Only people that didn't know what they were doing used AOL. Informed people would never use it...

Truth. I remember distinctly the day when the unwashed AOL hoards were hooked to the internet. Usenet was clogged with unruly newbies. Compuserve wasn't much better. (My company was tied into the internet in the early 1980s. And I still have an earthlink account that I used back in early dialup days.)

 

[techmaven]

The analogy with AOL and the Internet is terrible for a number of reasons, but I assume the primary gist is that AOL was a proprietary connection service to its own digital world while the Internet used open protocols for any number of digital services for a larger digital multi-world universe. Of course, AOL could have parlayed their digital world into the equivalent of any number of digital worlds that use the Internet for connections, but AOL didn't make the transition in a nimble enough fashion. They could have been Google/Yahoo/Facebook/Instagram/etc. The dial-up connection proprietary part was only one aspect of what they did and was expendable. Of course, it wasn't easy for them to re-write their stack for Internet technologies.

Ok - but there are two Tesla Connectors, one the U.S./Canada/Japan and one for everywhere else. We have two competing standards, CHAdeMO and CCS that are not level 3 and are currently limited to 200 amps. They have to be redesigned to handle real level 3 power levels to support a world with mass adoption of BEVs. So right now, there isn't an Internet equivalent in the EVSE space. Today and for some time yet, Tesla's Superchargers are cheaper per plug to install, have a superior business model, have a superior use model, and has superior technical specifications. It is likely going to be impossible to make money on DC charging in the aggregate and so there isn't a business model for it right now. Even if you could sort out that aspect, the actual products you can buy are due to be obsolete in the short term. There is also a possibility that when everyone finally sits down to revise CCS, they settle on Tesla's connector. And if they didn't, Tesla would just build in the new connector to new vehicles and sell an adapter for existing cars since the electrons are fungible.

 

[Electricfan]

I know I've been known to be contrary

On a serious note, I do feel a bit forced into driving something that is MUCH more than I need.

EV-ifiction in and of itself isn't the end goal. Better use of the planets resources is, and everytime I get home with 150 miles range remaining I can't help but think maybe driving such a big car with one person in it maybe isn't the best way Reduce > Reuse > Recyle, in that order (If only reduce didn't mean driving round in a clown car, in that regard the planet is suffering for my vanity)

BTW I used to cycle, but injury put pay to that :O

Agree - the Tesla is a LOT more car than I need. I will buy a Bolt as soon as available and drive it and the Model S. If the Bolt meets all my needs I may sell the Model S. Can't wait to have this decision to make. If I thought the Model 3 would actually be here in 2017 I"d wait, but can't say I have any confidence after watching the X delayed over and over.

 

[eloder]

I just recently got my Leaf.

It took me four separate Chademo stations until I found one that worked.

No more needs to be said. Tesla's competitors are weak (extremely slow charging by comparison), disorganized, and flat-out uncaring, plus they already are duelling with each other between CCS and chademo standards.

 

[MsElectric]

I was driving the other day and then I saw the Chevy Bolt being test driven. I have to say it looks quite impressive for a GM design :biggrin: