Coronavirus

[EinSV]

Controlled study on chloroquine showing that it is not effective:

New study casts doubt on hyrdoxychloroquine’s effectiveness in treating coronavirus – TechCrunch

The Techcrunch article is misleading and internally contradictory as the control was not "no treatment" but "conventional treatment" in China, which the article goes on to note includes antivirals.

I haven't read the study but a summary on reddit said 80% of the control group received interferon (plus other antivirals). A pilot study of hydroxychloroquine in treatment of patients with common coronavirus disease-19 (COVID-19) : COVID19

Other limitations:

• only 15 patients given hydroxychloroquine plus 15 given the control (30 patients total)
• they used a lower dose of hydroxychloroquine than Dr. Raoult's study suggested was most effective
• they didn't test combination with Azythromicin

Bottom line: this is not a very well constructed study and doesn't add much to the equation. Hopefully some of the larger clinical trials in the pipeline will shed more light on the effectiveness of CQ/HCQ with and without Azythromicin.

 

[iPlug]

...I can think of one well described case (an American from the cruise ship) who does not fit that pattern since he continues to test positive. He would fit what physicians call a 'carrier' although it is unknown if he is infectious. One thing is for sure: that person is seropositive...

Would be an interesting case to follow. Was he noted to be IgM+ and/or IgG+?

 

[bkp_duke]

Controlled study on chloroquine showing that it is not effective:

New study casts doubt on hyrdoxychloroquine’s effectiveness in treating coronavirus – TechCrunch

This is disappointing, but not quite conclusive at this point. The same criticism I leveled at studies that showed HC was beneficial apply to this one:
Small sample size
Confounding factors (they were on another anti-viral - which has shown to not be effective)

We need more data

 

[PeterJA]

Someone who has recovered from the virus (with or without symptoms) will not transmit it to others, because he/she is no longer shedding it. His/her immune system has defeated it, which is the same thing that happens after successful vaccination.

Now, I'm not a doctor (either) -- but it is absolutely clear to me that you are very busy shedding dangerous nonsense here. Please stop.

IF there is ANY support for that claim of immunity you must share it. Certainly the several actual medical professionals who post here would have told us about it long ago. And if you happened to have access to such proof, surely you would have already provided it. No?

So, once again: CUT OUT THE QUACKERY! Please, for the sake of humanity.

What exactly are you calling "quackery"? The idea that your immune system can defeat viruses? Or that vaccination stimulates this immune response?

Why do you think companies are working on a vaccine for Coronavirus? What do you think vaccines do?

Demanding proof of what I wrote is like demanding proof that the Earth is not flat, but illustrates the tragic ignorance of many people about the basics of health and disease. For the sake of humanity and stopping Coronavirus hysteria, google "vaccination" and educate yourself a bit.

 

[SageBrush]

Bottom line: this is not a very well constructed study and doesn't add much to the equation. Hopefully some of the larger clinical trials in the pipeline will shed more light on the effectiveness of CQ/HCQ with and without Azythromicine.

Your hope that a cohort of patients will be left untreated is in vain until studies move to concentration camps and people are viewed as rats.
In the meantime ethical physicians will use multi-variate analysis.

It is however true that small N studies of very sick people but high variability in outcome getting drugs under a compassionate use protocol have minimal statistical power. They are not "internally inconsistent," they are simply anecdotal. That limitation cuts both ways, as Anthony Fauci pointed out to the trump moron.

 

[SageBrush]

Would be an interesting case to follow. Was he noted to be IgM+ and/or IgG+?

I am not aware of a case report; unfortunately all I know is from a (NYT ?) article about him so details are lacking. His story and a link was mentioned in this thread. As of the writing of the story he was in an involuntary CDC quarantine facility although the story read as though he is OK with being locked up.

He sounds like a remarkable man, which made his community's response to him and his wife all the more vile.

 

[X Fan]

Not (quite) fake news. New York City is recommending to only test cases that require hospitalization.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/han/advisory/2020/covid-19-03202020.pdf
View attachment 525407

UNC Hospital is doing something similar with much more restrictive testing......

At yesterday's PC, Dr. Birx noted that they are far along with a test that would be less invasive (swab and place in a tube).

Hopefully, that can come to fruition quickly, can be tested quickly in Lab Corp, etc. and the the Health Care Providers system can focus on patients and diluting coverage through testing.

 

[kbM3]

No you can't. Oxford Univ has a paper out which puts it much lower than others. There is genuine dispute about the number from various reputed researchers.

Global Covid-19 Case Fatality Rates - new estimates from Oxford University : COVID19

Our current best assumption, as of the 22nd March, is the IFR is approximate 0.19% (95% CI, 0.16 to 0.24).​

Here are all the papers, if you want to take a look.

LitCovid - NCBI - NLM - NIH

Hospitalization is what Imperial College study recommends as the way to make lock down and let off decisions. Obviously you need to take lag into consideration.​

‘Reading the paper, it seems they just decided to use Germany for their calculations (with no reason provided), and then arbitrarily cut the number in half.

Am I missing something?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

As some of the articles mention, the Santa Clara County Health Department's testing is only the tip of the iceberg. Most of the testing is being done by other entities or private labs. For example, Kaiser -- one of the county's largest insurers and medical providers -- does its own testing. Stanford has its own FDA-approved test and I've been told they started running ~300 tests a day last week. Stanford and Kaiser both offer drive-through testing. Stanford, Kaiser hold drive-thru coronavirus testing, but you can't just head over there

So the health department's testing is only a fraction of all the tests being done in the county. Unfortunately, since the county only requires positive tests from outside labs to be reported, to my knowledge there is no way of knowing how many tests have been conducted county-wide, which is pretty ridiculous. AFAIK most are following the restrictive CDC guidelines on who should be tested, which means the vast majority of positive cases will get missed.

Thanks for the info. The insanity continues I guess.

 

[PeterJA]

I apologize if the following resources have been posted already. I don't have time to read the whole thread.

Tesla-watchers who have witnessed the media bias and disinformation campaign against Tesla and Elon might be open to the evidence that similar bias exists against other people and ideas that threaten powerful industries. At least I hope so. One such powerful industry is the manufacturers of patent medicines, aka Big Pharma, whose products are sometimes helpful but whose corrupting influence on the medical profession and media and government has been catastrophic for human health.

Case in point: While media and government agencies tell us Big Pharma is working hard to save us from Coronavirus with forthcoming drugs and vaccines, they are not telling us (or doctors) that effective treatments and prevention already exist using natural substances and methods that cannot be patented. Big Pharma doesn't want you to know that intravenous vitamin C has cured Corona cases, even when severe. You have to look beyond mainstream media and mainstream doctors.

Here is a doctor in Shanghai reporting on vitamin C usage there for Coronavirus:
Cheng Integrative Health Center Blog | Integrative Health, Anti-Aging, Functional Medicine, Weight Loss, Integrative Cancer Therapies related topics, questions, products such as hormones and appetite suppressants including Phentermine, Bontril, Tenuate and Didrex and hCG. The opinions posted here are those of the posters and of DrWLC staff and may not be FDA approved. – Richard Cheng, M.D., Ph.D.

Here is an American doctor reporting on vitamin C and other non-patentable treatments for viruses:
Stay Healthy with Dr Brownstein's Holistic Medicine

The global panic over Coronavirus is ironic because the death-toll and suffering is vastly greater from pandemic chronic diseases (heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes, etc.) treated ineffectively with drugs, and from adverse drug reactions (over 100k deaths/year in the US). I hope that learning about non-drug cures for Coronavirus can be your gateway to learning about non-drug cures for the much greater threats to your health. These non-patentable cures are so-called Lifestyle Medicine or Functional/Holistic/Integrative Medicine. I would start your education here:
NutritionFacts.org | The Latest in Nutrition Related Research

Members who laughed at my evidence that IV vitamin C cures COVID-19 have more to laugh at:

Seriously sick coronavirus patients in New York state’s largest hospital system are being given massive doses of vitamin C — based on promising reports that it’s helped people in hard-hit China, The Post has learned.

Dr. Andrew G. Weber, a pulmonologist and critical-care specialist affiliated with two Northwell Health facilities on Long Island, said his intensive-care patients with the coronavirus immediately receive 1,500 milligrams of intravenous vitamin C. Identical amounts of the powerful antioxidant are then readministered three or four times a day, he said.
...

“It helps a tremendous amount, but it is not highlighted because it’s not a sexy drug [said Dr. Weber].”
...

Weber, 34, said vitamin C levels in coronavirus patients drop dramatically when they suffer sepsis, an inflammatory response that occurs when their bodies overreact to the infection. “It makes all the sense in the world to try and maintain this level of vitamin C,” he said.
https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/new-york-hospitals-treating-coronavirus-patients-with-vitamin-c/

Most animals produce their own vitamin C, and produce large amounts when fighting infection. Humans and guinea pigs have lost the ability to produce it because it was so abundant in our ancestral diet (fruits and vegetables). Therefore administering 10-20 grams of vitamin C intravenously or orally (orally requires liposomal vitamin C) is not quackery, but simply mimicking the common response of other animals to infection.

 

[Lessmog]

What exactly are you calling "quackery"? The idea that your immune system can defeat viruses? Or that vaccination stimulates this immune response?

Why do you think companies are working on a vaccine for Coronavirus? What do you think vaccines do?

Demanding proof of what I wrote is like demanding proof that the Earth is not flat, but indicates the tragic ignorance of many people about the basics of health and disease. For the sake of humanity and stopping Coronavirus hysteria, google "vaccination" and educate yourself a bit.

Let me explain.

What I am calling quackery is your totally unsupported claim that a person who has been infected but got better is now completely immune AND NON-INFECTUOUS.

You then go on to recommend such persons be put to work with fragile patients and other groups.

That is indeed dangerously ignorant. Sadly, not at all without current precedent, especially in the USA, but the world hardly needs more spreading of such unfounded, irresponsible rumours.

Yes, it is an interesting hypothesis that the human immunosystem can handle this new, previously unknown virus in the way that we all hope. But alas, this is not yet a known fact. Do not say that it is.

By all means, if you can support your statements with reliable science -- please do. If not, just stop.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Get over it soon.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Members who laughed at my evidence that IV vitamin C cures COVID-19 have more to laugh at:

Cures COVID-19?

This therapy is a supportive therapy as far as I can tell. And of course it is no surprise - as far as I can tell there are many therapeutic uses of IV vitamin C which are accepted by the medical profession, and Big Pharma is fully behind those uses, and in fact probably provides the vitamin C.

Of course, doctors are going to use every tool at their disposal to give their patients a fighting chance. But please don’t confuse that with a cure and create false hope (and a dangerous impression that this disease is reliably treatable at this point).

 

[SageBrush]

Therefore administering 10-20 grams of vitamin C intravenously or orally (orally requires liposomal vitamin C) is not quackery, but simply mimicking the common response of other animals to infection.

Vit C is on the same level as HCQ -- anecdotes. They differ in that Vit C has been tried for decades in large, well designed studies and not proven effective.

In you enjoy a trip down medical history lane, start from Linus Pauling.

 

[EinSV]

Your hope that a cohort of patients will be left untreated is in vain until studies move to concentration camps and people are viewed as rats.
In the meantime ethical physicians will use multi-variate analysis.

What an obnoxious comment. This thread would be much more useful without snide comments like this and people insulting each other in every other post.

Let me be clear: My point is that the Techcrunch headline that this study "casts doubt on the effectiveness of hydroxychlorquine's effectiveness as a treatment for COVID-19" is misleading because the study's control (use of other anti-virals) may also be effective in treating covid-19. So the study's purported finding that HCQ was no better than the "conventional treatment" could mean that both the controls and HCQ are effective. (Although given the other weaknesses of the study I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from this).

Since many people seem to be criticizing the use of HCQ/CQ, even though they are part of the standard treatment protocol in many countries/hospitals, this is an important distinction.

Again, it would be nice to see some robust clinical trial data about HCQ/CQ and other potential treatments. With many trials in the pipeline, hopefully some of the data will be fast-tracked so there is better information available to make treatment recommendations.

It's unfortunate that Trump piped up about this but ultimately it is a scientific issue, not a political one. I wish we could stick to the science in this thread.

Incidentally, there are at least four HCQ clinical trials in the works that use a placebo control.

(1) treatment of patients with severe COVID-19 disease (HYDRA study)
(2) post-exposure prophylaxis (PHYDRA study plus one other)
(3) prevention for high risk individuals like health care personnel.

Hydroxychloroquine Post Exposure Prophylaxis for Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

So let's cut down on the "concentration camp" and "treating people like rats" rhetoric.

 

[bkp_duke]

What an obnoxious comment. This thread would be much more useful without snide comments like this and people insulting each other in every other post.

Sage is known for his snide comments. It's part of his "bedside manner." It's just one of those universal constants you get used to and accept.

 

[PeterJA]

Cures COVID-19?

This therapy is a supportive therapy as far as I can tell. And of course it is no surprise - as far as I can tell there are many therapeutic uses of IV vitamin C which are accepted by the medical profession, and Big Pharma is fully behind those uses, and in fact probably provides the vitamin C.

Of course, doctors are going to use every tool at their disposal to give their patients a fighting chance. But please don’t confuse that with a cure and create false hope (and a dangerous impression that this disease is reliably treatable at this point).

IV vitamin C is the primary therapy used in the Chinese hospital(s) reporting at a recent Chinese medical conference, as you would know if you invested 8 minutes in watching Dr Cheng's video before spreading misinformation here.

 

[bkp_duke]

IV vitamin C is the primary therapy used in the Chinese hospital(s) reporting at a recent Chinese medical conference, as you would know if you invested 8 minutes in watching Dr Cheng's video before spreading misinformation here.

No, VENTILATORS are the primary therapy. The ONLY therapy shown to make a difference in mortality rate for COVID-19.

Everything else (hydrochloroquine, Vitamin C, Zinc, etc.) is anecdotal at best (i.e. grade D or less on the scientific evidence scale).

Sorry, those are simply the FACTS. Not some Chinese doctor trying to pop his Youtube hit rate for a few extra bucks.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

IV vitamin C is the primary therapy used in the Chinese hospital(s) reporting at a recent Chinese medical conference, as you would know if you invested 8 minutes in watching Dr Cheng's video before spreading misinformation here.

Dr. Greger would be very disappointed in you.

 

[SMAlset]

I've mentioned before that it appears my SO and I both had it in February, but we can't prove it because the antibody test is not widely available yet. I came across this today and it pinged
Lost Smell and Taste Hint COVID-19 Can Target the Nervous System

I normally have a great sense of smell. I often smell things other people don't. But around mid-February I noticed I had almost no sense of smell. I could smell really strong smells faintly, but most things didn't smell at all. It came back a few days later, but I was having the weird asthma-like symptoms and forgot about it until I heard this.

Definitely a chance you did contract it. Sure you would like to know. I just saw a TV story of a local SF woman who lost her sense of smell before getting feverish etc. She wears perfume every day and she said she thought it was weird when she went to spray it on her wrists that she couldn’t detect it. She even held bottle up to her nose but nothing. She also noticed when her husband served her a plate of food saying that maybe he made it too spicy, that she said it was bland and he knew he had put in a lot into it. I tried looking for video but don’t see it. Either on KPIX5 or ABC7News.

Anyway thought I would relink to my earlier post to the UK letter the ear, nose and throat doctors wrote about this observation last week and how it might be an early marker for those already infected but asymptomatic otherwise:
Coronavirus

 

[PeterJA]

Let me explain.

What I am calling quackery is your totally unsupported claim that a person who has been infected but got better is now completely immune AND NON-INFECTUOUS.

You then go on to recommend such persons be put to work with fragile patients and other groups.

That is indeed dangerously ignorant. Sadly, not at all without current precedent, especially in the USA, but the world hardly needs more spreading of such unfounded, irresponsible rumours.

Yes, it is an interesting hypothesis that the human immunosystem can handle this new, previously unknown virus in the way that we all hope. But alas, this is not yet a known fact. Do not say that it is.

By all means, if you can support your statements with reliable science -- please do. If not, just stop.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Get over it soon.

Again you are labelling the most basic biological information as quackery. Put on your thinking cap and ask yourself what vaccination is for... why is China going back to work... what is "herd immunity". Google it.