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On the subject of disaster preparedness, I know a local hospital that has three days of fuel. I think it is criminal negligence personally, as I can think of more than a few events that would disrupt road travel enough to prevent tankers, plural, from getting there fast enough, and in sufficient numbers to keep the lights on. They are located quite close to the San @Andreas fault, in the region where it is predicted to let loose next time.

Crazy.

All the best,

BG
 
If you have not read what actually happened during the 1859 Carrington event, I recommend reading about it and then thinking about your current life, and lifestyle.

I am firmly on the page that a Carrington event today is an existential threat to most humans on the planet, and it is certain that it will occur sooner or later. This solar cycle is looking especially vigorous and we aren't at the peak yet.

Realistically, the effects from a Carrington sized event would more likely last many many years, and as a result, likely the end of life as we know it, and for many people on planet, the end of their lives, especially those in urban and suburban areas. How many factories are currently self powered in a way that is likely to survive an EMP? Likely not many, which means post Carrington, almost all manufacturing will be off line, and stay that way. Refrigeration would be gone, medical supplies would run out in a couple of weeks, fresh food would be gone, and not many people can access grains and legumes directly and cook them without electricity or natural gas. Survival skews toward subsistence farmers in lesser developed countries who have surface water. Being realistic, most of the readers of this post would be very unlikely to survive the ensuing year. The scale of the problem is enormous, and thinking that the current population could forage their way out of it is ostrich thinking. Even if you had five years of food, water, and supplies cached, the odds that someone with less foresight and more desperate would not find you is pretty low. You would have to be pretty hidden for a long time. Really hidden. I suspect that it would need to be underground, never above ground, hidden.

Lest you think I am a die hard prepper, I am not. I know that I live too close to too many people; the psychos would be here in the first month.

Let me share a small story about the power of a single point failure; I once worked at a large facility (it employs over 13,000) that generated a significant percentage of its own power, using the waste heat for heating and chilled water for the facility. One day two squirrels met in the transfer switch from the grid to the plant to rest of the facility. Instant plasma, and no more switch. There happened to be one, and only, other switch in existence in the US, on the opposite side of the country. It took ten days or so to source it and install it. If the switch hadn't been available, the factory said it would be six months to build a new one. One item, for one facility, with no other damage. In a Carrington event, that would be time hundreds of millions. Oh and nobody to call as the phones are out. You would need to personally visit each supplier, in your self powered transportation. That is a big hole to dig out of, with no working infrastructure.

All the best,

BG
I don't think people will start dying of starvation. The world will get its collective ass together before this happened on a large scale. Still, it's going to suck for months until they create enough kludgy fixed to get the electricity grid back up and running. If this happens, I hope I am in Hawaii, which is the only state that designed its power grid in a somewhat CME resistant manner: no long transmission line runs and each area is disconnected from all other areas so that problems in one area cannot cascade to others.
 
Powerwall cost: $11k
Warranty: 37.8 MWh of aggregate throughput

($10000/37.8MWh)*(1MWh/1000kWh)*(100¢/$) = 26.455¢/kWh

So the powerwall adds 26.455¢ to the cost of each kWh you push through it (!?!?). Why do people buy these? Even if it lasts for twice as long as the warranty, it still adds around 13¢/kWh to the cost of your electricity.


You asked how to make your home agnostic to future fluctuations in TOU rates from the utilities. ESS is how you accomplish this. All those solar sellers had to do was quote you an ESS that was sized to blast through your normal peak time usage on a daily basis. But it looks like you don't like the costs.

Alternatively, you can become buffered against TOU malarkey under NEM 2.0 by massively oversizing your solar array. @h2ofun will show you the way and enlighten you to how awesome it is to bask in solar glory. This way you will be a net generator and presumably will make so many credits even if your TOU goes against you... you still produced enough to offset.

But for real man, don't let the potential TOU shenanigans stop you from getting solar. Solar is better than no solar in all instances under NEM 2.0 (solar = sucks under the NEM 3.0 PD though).

TOU rate issues are nothing against the mammoth rate increases PG&E is going to try and get from the CPUC. Remember, PG&E's latest general rate case (GRC) submission has costs going up almost 40%-50% in the next 5 years. It's +18% in the first year alone with compounding increases over time. This increase to costs is actually uncoupled from the commodity price of the electricity itself... the GRC is just for the portion of your rate that PG&E gets to profit off of.
 
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Alternatively, you can become buffered against TOU malarkey under NEM 2.0 by massively oversizing your solar array. @h2ofun will show you the way and enlighten you to how awesome it is to bask in solar glory. This way you will be a net generator and presumably will make so many credits even if your TOU goes against you... you still produced enough to offset.
Will not protect you against them making electricity absurdly cheap when solar is generating and then jacking up the price during peak hours.
TOU rate issues are nothing against the mammoth rate increases PG&E is going to try and get from the CPUC.
TOU hours and the ratio of peak to off peak rates matter for solar. Remember the E-6 plan where peak hours actually corresponded roughly to maximum solar? And even though some people are still grandfathered on NEM1, they eliminated E-6 and they're eliminating ETOU-B and forcing everyone onto ETOU-D (which has peak hours starting even later). Every move they make screws over people with solar more and more.
Remember, PG&E's latest general rate case (GRC) submission has costs going up almost 40%-50% in the next 5 years. It's +18% in the first year alone with compounding increases over time. This increase to costs is actually uncoupled from the commodity price of the electricity itself... the GRC is just for the portion of your rate that PG&E gets to profit off of.
Well...
In San Diego, peak power over baseline is ~$0.70 kWh now going up soon. On EV-5, that spread is $0.70 and $0.12 so a massive gap for people who need to export high and consume low. I think SDG&E just asked to raise rates for another $4 billion.
I looked up SDG&E's tariffs and holy crap! I thought PG&E was bad, but they're nothing compared to SDG&E. I'm surprised that people in San Diego aren't rioting in the streets. Maybe it's because they don't realize how badly they are being screwed, just like the frog doesn't realize he's being boiled alive.
 
I think the more fair comparison is to do the math for when the PWs come to parity with the cost of the generator, not to where they pay for themselves entirely. The latter disregards the backup functionality they provide. And even comparing that way, you have to remember that after that time, they will continue to provide some return while the generator will not.
That does have to assume that you are considering a generator as a comparison. How many people looking at solar are also considering a backup generator vs batteries? Having had very few outages of any significance here, I wouldn't consider more than a portable generator, but even then, I would have to go through the trouble of keeping enough gas on-hand and fresh for outages.

From a pure backup perspective, it would be far more useful to figure out how to tap the batteries in my Tesla for these scenarios where I want to run the fridge for up to 12 hours and use up to a kWh.

In San Diego, peak power over baseline is ~$0.70 kWh now going up soon. On EV-5, that spread is $0.70 and $0.12 so a massive gap for people who need to export high and consume low. I think SDG&E just asked to raise rates for another $4 billion.
Sorry, where are you getting $0.70 / kWh peak? Granted, they are getting close, but summer rates for EV-TOU5 ($16 fixed fee + electricity) are currently:
Summer On Peak $0.63881 Summer Off-Peak $0.39056 Summer Super-Off-Peak $0.10235 Winter On-Peak $0.41294 Winter Off-Peak $0.36570 Winter Super-Off-Peak $0.09620
On-peak rates are 4-9 PM daily, Super-off-peak rates are from 12am-6am weekdays, 12am-2pm weekends/holidays and 10am-2pm from Mar-Apr. "Summer" is June 1st - Oct 31st. The "normal" EV-TOU2 rate replaces the $16 fixed fee primarily with higher super-off-peak rates of around $0.23-0.24. The EV-TOU5 plan only makes sense vs the EV-TOU2 plan if you are a net consumer of energy and also net consume around 125 kWh / month - not hard with an EV if you drive 500+ miles / month.

So most of the time you are shifting solar from off-peak rates to on-peak rates, aside from weekends/holidays. In the winter, there is no financial benefit to using batteries to shift from off-peak to on-peak - the ~10% difference in price means that you only get to about break-even due to efficiency of charging/discharging the batteries.

That said - I do expect to see super-off-peak hours expand as more and more solar is added to the grid, so it will be more beneficial to have batteries to be able to shift solar power over time.

Ignoring the economics, it's clear that batteries are required - and it's also clear that batteries need to get significantly cheaper, too.

My rough estimate is that batteries need to fall in price by about 50% to truly see widescale adoption - 25 kWh with 10 kW power output (about 2 Powerwalls) for about $7500. The raw price of lithium iron batteries is there - you can buy 5 kWh of rack-mountable batteries for about $1500 - but add in the inverter, rack hardware and installation and you end up well over that.
 
Will not protect you against them making electricity absurdly cheap when solar is generating and then jacking up the price during peak hours.

TOU hours and the ratio of peak to off peak rates matter for solar. Remember the E-6 plan where peak hours actually corresponded roughly to maximum solar? And even though some people are still grandfathered on NEM1, they eliminated E-6 and they're eliminating ETOU-B and forcing everyone onto ETOU-D (which has peak hours starting even later). Every move they make screws over people with solar more and more.

I think you're blowing this TOU thing out of proportion. And keep in mind my hatred of PG&E is in the top 1% of hate. There are dozens of people on TMC that can help convince you on how much I hate PG&E's antics. So, if I'm recommending that you slow your roll on your slippery slope TOU fear ... you should re-consider your current stance hah. Edit: @jjrandorin , please advise STS-134 on how much I dislike PG&E...

Personally, I dislike TOU rates simply because they are another way PG&E tries to gaslight homeowners into thinking the homeowner is the problem, instead of the utility's cost structure. The utility will say you cooked dinner at 6pm... so that deflects from the issue that the utility's fixed costs are out of control. But TOU rates themselves can't be used to completely screw over / gouge a homeowner because ultimately they are rates paid by millions of people.

If you have batteries, then instead of exporting to the grid at the off-peak rate; you simply bank your own power. This makes the homeowner indifferent to the TOU rates being charged since they'll avoid taking peak energy from the grid. If you're only exporting at off-peak and importing at off-peak, then it doesn't matter what TOU rate is in effect for you.

Also consider that PG&E's TOU rates must still be reasonably paid for by a normal non-solar homeowner without their rates getting absurd. So there can never be a situation where PG&E makes the off-peak rate $0.01 and the peak-rate $500.00 per kWh. This disparity just can't happen because of how many homeowners that would get killed with an absurd energy bill.

For example, E-TOU-C is the most used TOU rate, and for the Summertime rates... the gap between peak and non-peak is like $0.06 (about 16% gap). Maybe this can double in a few years? But what then? the gap is $0.12... still not something that will ruin your NEM 2.0 solar. Just oversize your solar, and you'll be fine. I mean PG&E wouldn't let me oversize my solar. But for 99% of TMC, PG&E seems to let them oversize their solar.

Now consider EV2A which is a TOU plan with the most aggressive gap between off peak and peak... Summertime is a $0.29 gap. @h2ofun and I are both on EV2A because of SGIP. We don't care if we're on EV2A or E-TOU-C because we simply never take power from the grid at shoulder or at peak times. The battery becomes our way to be indifferent to PG&E's TOU shenanigans, and the NEM 2.0 solar is our way to become indifferent to PG&E's GRCs.

Get solar under NEM 2.0 ... and don't sweat TOU too much.
 
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That does have to assume that you are considering a generator as a comparison. How many people looking at solar are also considering a backup generator vs batteries? Having had very few outages of any significance here, I wouldn't consider more than a portable generator, but even then, I would have to go through the trouble of keeping enough gas on-hand and fresh for outages.

From a pure backup perspective, it would be far more useful to figure out how to tap the batteries in my Tesla for these scenarios where I want to run the fridge for up to 12 hours and use up to a kWh.
12 hours wouldn't cut it here. Here in NorCal, we have PSPS (Public Safety Power Shutoff) events because PG&E started so many fires with their antiquated grid. I had solar already but then we had a PSPS event that lasted 3 days. I immediately got quotes for backup generator and PWs. All the generator installers had raised their prices do to the new PSPS policy. A generator was still less, but I would make up the difference in about 5 years through rate arbitrage with the PW.
 
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Powerwall cost: $11k
Warranty: 37.8 MWh of aggregate throughput

($10000/37.8MWh)*(1MWh/1000kWh)*(100¢/$) = 26.455¢/kWh

So the powerwall adds 26.455¢ to the cost of each kWh you push through it (!?!?). Why do people buy these? Even if it lasts for twice as long as the warranty, it still adds around 13¢/kWh to the cost of your electricity.
The warranty does not limit 37.8 mwh when solar charges the PWs, I am not sure how else you would use them, maybe this limit applies to people who have only PWs and its "if charged from the grid" or something, sort of like fast charging. When charged via solar its unlimited cycles.

Anyway, this is how the cost, I think, is calculated.

1. Figure out the size of your solar system, and what it will produce in a year, let's say. In my case over 24,000 kwh.
2. Figure out the cost with and without PWs.
3. Remember, using PWs, as in additional piece of equipment, is the only way to use all of the solar your system actually produces. Without PW's you are at the mercy of your utility acting as your battery.
4. In my case, over the expected 20 year life, the numbers were about 11 cents per kwh with only solar, and about 16 cents per kwh with solar and PWs, yes, PW's add about 50% to the cost.

But the point is even with PWs its still cheaper per kwh than the utility is charging. Done.

The PWs do not, of course, produce any power by themselves. If one wanted to go nuts, you would calculate both (a) solar only kwhs, and (b) kwhs from solar charged PWs, but I have not bothered.

What is obviously happening is the utilities are trying to up the cost of using them as a battery, so everyone on these threads is forced to figure out that.
 
That does have to assume that you are considering a generator as a comparison. How many people looking at solar are also considering a backup generator vs batteries? Having had very few outages of any significance here, I wouldn't consider more than a portable generator, but even then, I would have to go through the trouble of keeping enough gas on-hand and fresh for outages.

From a pure backup perspective, it would be far more useful to figure out how to tap the batteries in my Tesla for these scenarios where I want to run the fridge for up to 12 hours and use up to a kWh.


Sorry, where are you getting $0.70 / kWh peak? Granted, they are getting close, but summer rates for EV-TOU5 ($16 fixed fee + electricity) are currently:
Summer On Peak $0.63881 Summer Off-Peak $0.39056 Summer Super-Off-Peak $0.10235 Winter On-Peak $0.41294 Winter Off-Peak $0.36570 Winter Super-Off-Peak $0.09620
On-peak rates are 4-9 PM daily, Super-off-peak rates are from 12am-6am weekdays, 12am-2pm weekends/holidays and 10am-2pm from Mar-Apr. "Summer" is June 1st - Oct 31st. The "normal" EV-TOU2 rate replaces the $16 fixed fee primarily with higher super-off-peak rates of around $0.23-0.24. The EV-TOU5 plan only makes sense vs the EV-TOU2 plan if you are a net consumer of energy and also net consume around 125 kWh / month - not hard with an EV if you drive 500+ miles / month.

So most of the time you are shifting solar from off-peak rates to on-peak rates, aside from weekends/holidays. In the winter, there is no financial benefit to using batteries to shift from off-peak to on-peak - the ~10% difference in price means that you only get to about break-even due to efficiency of charging/discharging the batteries.

That said - I do expect to see super-off-peak hours expand as more and more solar is added to the grid, so it will be more beneficial to have batteries to be able to shift solar power over time.

Ignoring the economics, it's clear that batteries are required - and it's also clear that batteries need to get significantly cheaper, too.

My rough estimate is that batteries need to fall in price by about 50% to truly see widescale adoption - 25 kWh with 10 kW power output (about 2 Powerwalls) for about $7500. The raw price of lithium iron batteries is there - you can buy 5 kWh of rack-mountable batteries for about $1500 - but add in the inverter, rack hardware and installation and you end up well over that.

You're right, I get my numbers mixed up since I originally was deadset to go with EV-5, but decided not to since I'd have to have a minimum fee of $16/month vs. my ~$10 now and WFH means not much EV charging actually. I'm on DR-1 actually which is $0.69 right now at peak. My super off peak is $0.336 so a smaller gap. For below 130%, it's $0.234 vs. $0.588.

That's still a ~$0.35 difference for off-peak / on-peak which is more than what most folks would consider "fair". San Diego has the most expensive power in the nation now (more than Hawaii).
 
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You're right, I get my numbers mixed up since I originally was deadset to go with EV-5, but decided not to since I'd have to have a minimum fee of $16/month vs. my ~$10 now and WFH means not much EV charging actually. I'm on DR-1 actually which is $0.69 right now at peak. My super off peak is $0.336 so a smaller gap. For below 130%, it's $0.234 vs. $0.588.
I mean, these numbers. The IOUs seem to deserve every rock thrown at them and every rock just lying around.

LADWP has a max of like 23 cents. Sixty Nine f-in cents per kwh! Yikes just get solar and however many PWs fit on the wall and call it a day.

Can you imagine if gasoline was $4 a gallon and then drive to another city and its $12? There would be a total revolt.
 
I don't think people will start dying of starvation. The world will get its collective ass together before this happened on a large scale. Still, it's going to suck for months until they create enough kludgy fixed to get the electricity grid back up and running. If this happens, I hope I am in Hawaii, which is the only state that designed its power grid in a somewhat CME resistant manner: no long transmission line runs and each area is disconnected from all other areas so that problems in one area cannot cascade to others.


Heh, I have much less confidence in our world getting their collective asses together honestly. Like that movie, Don't Look Up, I think it's more likely we'll all just wiping ourselves out due to some crazed leader honestly or 50/50 disagreement in pretty much every country now (I'm seeing this debate with the EV tax credit proposal actually).

Maybe we need to start a thread of bunker/EMP/Solar flare protection talk for the coming China/Russia bombs after China decides to move into Taiwan. :)
 
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TOU hours and the ratio of peak to off peak rates matter for solar. Remember the E-6 plan where peak hours actually corresponded roughly to maximum solar? And even though some people are still grandfathered on NEM1, they eliminated E-6 and they're eliminating ETOU-B and forcing everyone onto ETOU-D (which has peak hours starting even later). Every move they make screws over people with solar more and more.

My thought has always been many many people in CA has solar. Solar was a good idea for ROI, but not many have batteries due to bad ROI. Batteries are expensive and the IOUs know this and I think they will continue to hurt/get $$ from the 90% of people with solar but no storage because they simply can. Jack up rates the wazoo after 4pm - 9pm because what are solar/not ESS customers going to do? That's when they're home and they can't really do anything about it. They may also cut credits during solar times to compensate low value of solar.

ESS just gives you some more control I think for folks with stable power grids with whatever the IOUs do. The power outage protection is an added plus for folks who get outages all the time.
 
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ESS just gives you some more control I think for folks with stable power grids with whatever the IOUs do. The power outage protection is an added plus for folks who get outages all the time.


I just want to cook dinner, watch TV, run the dryer, and do chores when I want... instead of PG&E's recommendation to eat cold cuts by candle-light and stare at a blank wall to pass the time. Screw the TOU ROI... it's all about avoiding the absurd influence of our energy monopoly.

Have you seen the latest "flex alert" TV ads? The ads have stupid character lecturing their roommate about smart energy. The ads tell you to unplug your hair dryer and hold off chores until after 9pm. It's so dummmmbbbbbb. If you've ever received one of PG&E's nastygrams on electricity usage, you'll know what I'm talking about.

PS. I hate PG&E.
 
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I just want to cook dinner, watch TV, run the dryer, and do chores when I want... instead of PG&E's recommendation to eat cold cuts by candle-light and stare at a blank wall to pass the time. Screw the TOU ROI... it's all about avoiding the absurd influence of our energy monopoly.

Have you seen the latest "flex alert" TV ads? The ads have stupid character lecturing their roommate about smart energy. The ads tell you to unplug your hair dryer and hold off chores until after 9pm. It's so dummmmbbbbbb. If you've ever received one of PG&E's nastygrams on electricity usage, you'll know what I'm talking about.

PS. I hate PG&E.
Whenever I hear about a flex alert, I check the CAISO site and look at the spot price of electricity. If it's more expensive than what I'm paying, I crank up the AC. If I must use electricity during peak times, I try to do it when the grid load is maximized (typically around 6:30 pm). My costs are high, but my costs are fixed. PG&E's costs are variable. If PG&E's costs float above my costs, then every kWh I use makes them lose money, so I'll use as much as possible.

The flex alert ads are a joke. Want me to cut my usage on a specific day? PG&E should give me an incentive to do it. Otherwise, screw them.
 
Whenever I hear about a flex alert, I check the CAISO site and look at the spot price of electricity. If it's more expensive than what I'm paying, I crank up the AC. If I must use electricity during peak times, I try to do it when the grid load is maximized (typically around 6:30 pm). My costs are high, but my costs are fixed. PG&E's costs are variable. If PG&E's costs float above my costs, then every kWh I use makes them lose money, so I'll use as much as possible.

The flex alert ads are a joke. Want me to cut my usage on a specific day? PG&E should give me an incentive to do it. Otherwise, screw them.
That would be fun, but it doesn't actually make PG&E lose money. It just increases their costs which it turn are reimbursed via future rate hikes. PG&E profits are guaranteed on their capital expenditures.
 
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I just want to cook dinner, watch TV, run the dryer, and do chores when I want... instead of PG&E's recommendation to eat cold cuts by candle-light and stare at a blank wall to pass the time. Screw the TOU ROI... it's all about avoiding the absurd influence of our energy monopoly.

Have you seen the latest "flex alert" TV ads? The ads have stupid character lecturing their roommate about smart energy. The ads tell you to unplug your hair dryer and hold off chores until after 9pm. It's so dummmmbbbbbb. If you've ever received one of PG&E's nastygrams on electricity usage, you'll know what I'm talking about.

PS. I hate PG&E.
You mean Pacific Graft and Extortion.
 
Whenever I hear about a flex alert, I check the CAISO site and look at the spot price of electricity. If it's more expensive than what I'm paying, I crank up the AC. If I must use electricity during peak times, I try to do it when the grid load is maximized (typically around 6:30 pm). My costs are high, but my costs are fixed. PG&E's costs are variable. If PG&E's costs float above my costs, then every kWh I use makes them lose money, so I'll use as much as possible.

The flex alert ads are a joke. Want me to cut my usage on a specific day? PG&E should give me an incentive to do it. Otherwise, screw them.


Wow, @STS-134 may actually hate PG&E more than me and maybe even @Merrill
 
Whenever I hear about a flex alert, I check the CAISO site and look at the spot price of electricity. If it's more expensive than what I'm paying, I crank up the AC. If I must use electricity during peak times, I try to do it when the grid load is maximized (typically around 6:30 pm). My costs are high, but my costs are fixed. PG&E's costs are variable. If PG&E's costs float above my costs, then every kWh I use makes them lose money, so I'll use as much as possible.

The flex alert ads are a joke. Want me to cut my usage on a specific day? PG&E should give me an incentive to do it. Otherwise, screw them.
SoCal Edison ads suggesting cranking the temp down to 72 early afternoon, then setting it at 78 degrees at 4 pm, don't cook dinner, or use other appliances until 9 pm. Yeah, sure that makes sense. I'll just tell my grandkid (toddler) that he can stay up past his normal bedtime so he can eat dinner after 9 pm.

But if I want to sign up for a new program, I can get A $2.00 credit for every kWh not used (or something like that).

btw: ToU would cost us more money even with two Teslas. (both retired, so don't drive much)
 
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Whenever I hear about a flex alert, I check the CAISO site and look at the spot price of electricity. If it's more expensive than what I'm paying, I crank up the AC. If I must use electricity during peak times, I try to do it when the grid load is maximized (typically around 6:30 pm). My costs are high, but my costs are fixed. PG&E's costs are variable. If PG&E's costs float above my costs, then every kWh I use makes them lose money, so I'll use as much as possible.

The flex alert ads are a joke. Want me to cut my usage on a specific day? PG&E should give me an incentive to do it. Otherwise, screw them.
I like the sentiment.

But on what alternative universe is the spot price on CAISO ever, anywhere near what PG&E is charging retail? Let alone more than that. Ha! :)