CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[yblaser]

Interesting. I never see different tiers on my bill.

Thanks. Maybe you just don't ever exceed the baseline. I generally only come in under baseline in my May bill as the baseline hasn't come down to the summer baseline but I'm not using much heat if any at all.

When was this bill? My most recent bill to 31 Oct
tier 1 $1.88139 per therm
tier 2 $2.36363 per therm
and from 1 Nov to 16 Nov I had tier 1 at $2.01237
with total of 21 therms.
Radiant heat is on right now and have lots of Tylenol on hand for next bill.

This was my most recent bill that covered usage from mid November to mid December.
Ouch, that's about 30% higher than us per therm. Looks like my highest gas bill is generally in February at about $130.

 

[charlesj]

Thanks. Maybe you just don't ever exceed the baseline. I generally only come in under baseline in my May bill as the baseline hasn't come down to the summer baseline but I'm not using much heat if any at all.

This was my most recent bill that covered usage from mid November to mid December.
Ouch, that's about 30% higher than us per therm. Looks like my highest gas bill is generally in February at about $130.

Looked at my bill again.
It appears that from Nov 1 to some spring month I am allowed 1.38 therms per day for tier 1.
Before Nov 1 it was .59 therms per day fro tier 1.

In the past I called PG&E and discovered among other things their tier allowances are not the same throughout their territory. I think it was for electricity before my solar but must be the same with gas.

 

[charlesj]

Here is mine for my last billing period, before we started needing to heat the house. I have 2 heater units (and 2 AC units), one for upstairs and one for downstairs. I keep the one for the part of the house we are in set to 70, and the other one set to like 64 (so heat doesnt come on upstairs when we are downstairs all day, etc), and vis versa when we go to bed as the main bedroom is upstairs.

View attachment 746790

Perhaps your company doesn't have tiers as it doesn't say tier 1 ....
Mine has it always even when I don't exceed tier 1. nor does it say how much is allowed per day as mine does. That must be an indicator for having tier
structure?

 

[h2ofun]

My mother in law has the downstairs furnace set to 74F and a space heater going. My next bill is going to require Tylenol and a HELOC.

I can see why old people typically want to move to Arizona to retire...

space heater are REAL REAL expensive to run!!!!!!

 

[holeydonut]

space heater are REAL REAL expensive to run!!!!!!

Nobody shall tell my MIL this... I prefer to keep this house conflict-free. Thanks lol.

 

[h2ofun]

Nobody shall tell my MIL this... I prefer to keep this house conflict-free. Thanks lol.

I had 10 running for like 2 winters, which got me the 2000 per month electric bills. But, is also got PGE to give me a little solar

 

[nwdiver]

Nobody shall tell my MIL this... I prefer to keep this house conflict-free. Thanks lol.

That's why god gave us mini-splits. All the heat at 1/4th the cost.

 

[h2ofun]

That's why god gave us mini-splits. All the heat at 1/4th the cost.

I have 10 mini split heads and 4 compressors. And boy am I letting them run in the cold weather we are having now. Really looking forward to see my bill details tomorrow to see how much I used from the grid vs sending back.

 

[holeydonut]

That's why god gave us mini-splits. All the heat at 1/4th the cost.

HOA won't allow mini splits that can be seen from the exterior on account of them being unsightly. And wife won't allow mini splits on account of them being ugly.

The HOA also won't let me get an artificial turf lawn. Sigh.

 

[nwdiver]

HOA won't allow mini splits that can be seen from the exterior on account of them being unsightly. And wife won't allow mini splits on account of them being ugly.

The HOA also won't let me get an artificial turf lawn. Sigh.

.... how are they any less unsightly than an air conditioner compressor??? How would they even know it's for a mini-split and not a central HVAC?

You can get cassettes that are just a vent in the ceiling.

 

[skepticcyclist]

HOA won't allow mini splits that can be seen from the exterior on account of them being unsightly. And wife won't allow mini splits on account of them being ugly.

The HOA also won't let me get an artificial turf lawn. Sigh.

Which is why I will never live where there is an HOA

 

[holeydonut]

.... how are they any less unsightly than an air conditioner compressor??? How would they even know it's for a mini-split and not a central HVAC?

You can get cassettes that are just a vent in the ceiling.

I have a concrete pad on the "ugly" side of the house. This side has a higher fence line and hedge/trees in the master-plan that make the units impossible to see from the street or a neighbor's primary yard spaces. That's the only area exterior HVAC equipment can be mounted (I have two condensing units sitting on this pad).

If I got mini splits I'd need wall mounted "things" all over the place... including on the "not ugly" sides of the house. And on the inside of the house my wife thinks the heads are ugly so that's kind of the end of the mini split conversation.

This house also has no real attic space, which is annoying as well.

Look, I didn't know any of this energy-crap when I bought the house. Basically I bought the only house for sale at the time that I could afford in the area we wanted to live. It wasn't until after I moved in that I learned how crappy PG&E was and how I'm an HVAC-and-solar-and-ESS-and-architecture-optimization-Idiot.

 

[arnolddeleon]

One of the first things I did when I bought my house ~9 years ago was replace my POS gas furnace, water heater, stove and disconnect the gas service. Heat pumps are awesome and they're even better today than they were then

Wood stoves are a great alternative when it's ~10F outside and the heat pumps are closer to ~200% efficient vs their normal 400% or the power is out.

Just replaced my natural gas dryer with a heat pump one. I had wanted to do this for a while now but couldn't bring myself to do it until the dryer died of natural causes. Because of delays if delivery of the new dryer I actually attempted to fix the gas dryer. I was minorly happy to discover it was not going to cheap easy fix and luckily the dryer arrived today.

New dryer definitely makes more noises (not surprised) and also not surprised that it takes longer. I'm going to take advantage of the "ventless" feature to move things around in the laundry room. Also happy to not be venting conditioned air to the outside whenever it runs.

Apropos to the original topic, I fully expect that Tesla will create modes that will match the new tariffs if they come to pass. They already have innovated in their power control setup that allows a larger system to be installed without upgrading the service. I have trouble imagining how the investor owned utilities can "tax" against non-exporting PV systems, as others have already pointed out how is that different from energy conservation?

Somewhat ironic that PG&E/Solar City/Tesla flubbing they cumulative size of my PV systems would be feature in post NEM 2.0 world for me. The question is which clock am I on? (2002, 2008, 2020)

 

[wwhitney]

If I got mini splits I'd need wall mounted "things" all over the place... including on the "not ugly" sides of the house. And on the inside of the house my wife thinks the heads are ugly so that's kind of the end of the mini split conversation.

Unless your house is super large (perhaps the case), the line sets could all be run to one place. And for indoor distribution, there are alternative to wall heads--you can get low static pressure and high static pressure air handlers, or ceiling cassettes, or a thin wall cassette that takes a picture on it (but still sticks off the wall). And lastly there are air to water heat pumps, where you run hydronic tubing to fan coil units (heading and cooling) (but perhaps ugly like minisplit heads, although they have radiator style ones that mount near the floor), air handlers (heat and cooling), or radiators/radiant flooring (heating only).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[arnolddeleon]

I have a concrete pad on the "ugly" side of the house. This side has a higher fence line and hedge/trees in the master-plan that make the units impossible to see from the street or a neighbor's primary yard spaces. That's the only area exterior HVAC equipment can be mounted (I have two condensing units sitting on this pad).

If I got mini splits I'd need wall mounted "things" all over the place... including on the "not ugly" sides of the house. And on the inside of the house my wife thinks the heads are ugly so that's kind of the end of the mini split conversation.

This house also has no real attic space, which is annoying as well.

Look, I didn't know any of this energy-crap when I bought the house. Basically I bought the only house for sale at the time that I could afford in the area we wanted to live. It wasn't until after I moved in that I learned how crappy PG&E was and how I'm an HVAC-and-solar-and-ESS-and-architecture-optimization-Idiot.

Art Cool Mini-Splits for Comfort—and Decor

Making a room cool doesn't have to involve loosing a window. Today's Art Cool mini-splits are the smart alternative to traditional window units, delivering comfort and decor all in one.

www.bobvila.com

9 Ways to Hide a Minisplit

These mighty-mites can provide heating, cooling, and air-mixing for a well-insulated house, but they look so darned—European. It is hard for many Americans to warm up to them.

www.protradecraft.com

 

[h2ofun]

Unless your house is super large (perhaps the case), the line sets could all be run to one place. And for indoor distribution, there are alternative to wall heads--you can get low static pressure and high static pressure air handlers, or ceiling cassettes, or a thin wall cassette that takes a picture on it (but still sticks off the wall). And lastly there are air to water heat pumps, where you run hydronic tubing to fan coil units (heading and cooling) (but perhaps ugly like minisplit heads, although they have radiator style ones that mount near the floor), air handlers (heat and cooling), or radiators/radiant flooring (heating only).

Cheers, Wayne

I was able to run the lines for all my 10 heads and 4 compressors in walls so nothing is seen. Yep, I have the wall mounted heads but the wife says whats the big deal, they blend in for her.

 

[holeydonut]

Unless your house is super large (perhaps the case), the line sets could all be run to one place. And for indoor distribution, there are alternative to wall heads--you can get low static pressure and high static pressure air handlers, or ceiling cassettes, or a thin wall cassette that takes a picture on it (but still sticks off the wall). And lastly there are air to water heat pumps, where you run hydronic tubing to fan coil units (heading and cooling) (but perhaps ugly like minisplit heads, although they have radiator style ones that mount near the floor), air handlers (heat and cooling), or radiators/radiant flooring (heating only).

Cheers, Wayne

The house is on a concrete slab with no attic either; the mini split guy said there was no way to run the lines to the central space.

And I think just re-using the existing ducting and registers is like... cheaper and easier than what you're explaining with the minisplits. Although the artwork head seems pretty cool for like a bathroom or something.

Radiant flooring is something I want to explore if I can ever get around to renovating the main family room. That's the place with the space heater and other high heat requirement.

Regardless, if there aren't incentives to do all these cool ideas; they are not really pragmatic solutions at this time for the masses. They are more like cool/novel doohickeys for someone's sitting on a crap ton of money with a lake house and a roof covered in solar hah.

For the same reasons the government threw down billions (trillions?) to incent EV buyers, I think residential HVAC will need the same catalyst to get the economies of scale to eventually drive costs down on the newer HVAC tech. If the cost of an old scroll compressor condenser + interior furnace starts to equal out with the heat-pump approach, you'll see the public phase out replacing old condensers and furnaces. Just like you're seeing people now finally phasing out ICE by replacing their aging cars with new EVs.

In the meantime, I'm going to look into re-doing the fireplace insert in the family room to one of those cool wood burning units @getakey mentioned. Seems cheaper and easier than trying to rig up radiant flooring. That stupid room is probably responsible for like 1/3 my wintertime energy bill.

 

[Zabe]

Ooooo yeah that catalyst technology reduces emissions to 2 grams per hour. Man, I'm going to get one of these retrofit in the fireplace before I pay PG&E $500 a month for NG in 2027...

So if we try to duck NEM 3.0 fixed cost fees by converting PV+ESS to non exporting ... and go further "off grid" with some wood fireplaces ... we will be on a fast track to energy independence. Just need to add some windmills in my back yard. Maybe get a propane stove.


View attachment 746783

Do they have no burn days in the East Bay? I use only my fireplace insert for all my heating needs in the winter, but I do not have no burn days. PG&E never got off their @$$ to install a gas line to our neck of the woods. I am pretty certain that is why they do not have no burn days out here, people would freeze to death. An EPA approved insert or stove is generally 80% efficient.

 

[getakey]

Do they have no burn days in the East Bay? I use only my fireplace insert for all my heating needs in the winter, but I do not have no burn days. PG&E never got off their @$$ to install a gas line to our neck of the woods. I am pretty certain that is why they do not have no burn days out here, people would freeze to death. An EPA approved insert or stove is generally 80% efficient.

curious - are you getting snow right now? we live down the hill in EDH

 

[RKCRLR]

Ooooo yeah that catalyst technology reduces emissions to 2 grams per hour. Man, I'm going to get one of these retrofit in the fireplace before I pay PG&E $500 a month for NG in 2027...

So if we try to duck NEM 3.0 fixed cost fees by converting PV+ESS to non exporting ... and go further "off grid" with some wood fireplaces ... we will be on a fast track to energy independence. Just need to add some windmills in my back yard. Maybe get a propane stove.


View attachment 746783

I don't think the government takes a holistic view of wood stoves. I have a non-catalytic wood stove with air injection. Not quite as clean as the catalytic system but close and I don't have to worry about replacing the catalyst. I live on 25 wooded acres. When a tree dies or falls I cut it up for firewood. If I didn't burn them for heat I'd be burning them in a pile. If I leave them then they will be a fire hazard and will likely burn at some point in uncontrolled conditions. And if they wind up not burning and rotting instead then they release methane which is a worse greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.