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Degradation of the Community...
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Fair post there, @EinSV.
I think this is the biggest problem.
I don't think anyone (or many) would call me a short if I posted a negative experience. People might think I'm exaggerating or being negative again, but most definitely the doubt problem is with new posters.
More often than not, I have not seen in recent years any evidence of them being actual short action - I mean posters on TMC. Usually we've later found out details that make the stories quite plausible or at least not looking like pure short inventions.
For some reason that "short gear" has gotten stuck and become an unfortunate part of the culture, probably long after any shorts frequent here since getting TSLA to budge on a TMC post probably won't happen these days anyway.
Be a first-time poster on TMC with a negative story to share and that's not a very good place to be, respectful or not.
I think this is the biggest problem.
I don't think anyone (or many) would call me a short if I posted a negative experience. People might think I'm exaggerating or being negative again, but most definitely the doubt problem is with new posters.
More often than not, I have not seen in recent years any evidence of them being actual short action - I mean posters on TMC. Usually we've later found out details that make the stories quite plausible or at least not looking like pure short inventions.
For some reason that "short gear" has gotten stuck and become an unfortunate part of the culture, probably long after any shorts frequent here since getting TSLA to budge on a TMC post probably won't happen these days anyway.
Be a first-time poster on TMC with a negative story to share and that's not a very good place to be, respectful or not.
It is where we disagree. I believe the bulk of participants in this thread are talking about politeness or at least communication effectiveness. There are few (one, two?) who seem to believe it's more about anti-Tesla (or pro-Tesla) bias. I've given an example of @wk057's thread where he changed the tone and the thread became productive and civil. This in stark comparison to his threads that devolved into name-calling and finger pointing.
Imagine I repost that example hundreds of times, anytime someone mentions something about how tone doesn't matter. Always as the same example to try to prove my point. How would that play out? I can tell you this - it would make me feel like a terribly ineffective communicator at a minimum.
Ok. I counted 3 people who said short, not a dozen, but I could only stomach browsing the first 100 posts. Many people, including you, found the OPs method and sudden appearance fishy though. Though OPs posts all deleted, I recall that OP was not forthcoming with tangible support for claim, which did not help.
No, it's not your communication, it's that they just.WONT.LISTEN
Both sides (or many sides) of this debate have people grouping up, joining together thinking the same. Why doesn't the other side get it - we here get it. It isn't our communication, the other side just isn't getting it. Then get the usual names pressing Like, Love, Helpful to each other and most often not to the other side.
And this tit-for-tat continues...
It is only human, as said. Nobody is perfect, this is just the way it goes.
If you feel frustrated by it, rest assured someone is equally frustrated by you not getting it.
I have no wish to re-discuss Eds, consider my post a bit of a joke.
If you don't think there are threads with a dozen "go away short" posts on TMC, there is nothing I can do to convince you. And no, my point isn't helped by me looking for one, because the point was the culture, not a single thread example. ('m pretty sure most everyone agrees we can find one, the bigger debate is whether or not it is representative.)
If you don't see that or agree with that assessment of the culture, then you don't. But it is my view.
@ohmman I guess we are talking a bit past each other, about two different things. I'm not saying the tone doesn't matter ever. No, no, no... I agree it matters to an extent.
For example I'm on record saying @Bladerskb would get the message across better by being simply nicer. I happen to agree with some (many?) of his actual views, but also that he is not effective by being so crude (and I don't agree with the crude). @wk057 is a bit of an enigma for me, he goes off the tangent at times and I've witnessed what you have noted as well. He would do better by cooling it down at times, sure, because he's basically super great otherwise...
However, my point is, no amount of civility solves some of the issues. It won't stop the new caller from being called a short, because in the end that episode tells more about the other people than the new poster. Also, it is hard to remain "civil enough" at times when very negative sentiment needs to be expressed. To remain "civil" in the sense that nobody would be offended, might require holding back things more than warranted - so that is a tricky spot to be in as well. Some people take it as lack of civility simply if you disagree with them enough.
What if you really feel that Tesla committed a fraud, for example. (I'm not saying I think so, just as an example.) How do you put that out there without offending someone really seriously? It is not very easy. One might be tempted to not express their real opinion, if they are trying to be civil and not offend anyone. It is easy being civil, when the topic is easy or you are on the side of the majority opinion. Try to discuss a harder topic, try to argue a more difficult point, be an unknown poster (no history) etc., things are not so easy.
Here is the OPs (@jeffro01) recent comment I referred to earlier.
Theft Of Components Off My Model S @ Cleveland Service Center
Basically he misses the times when a claim that car's components were stolen at SC would have been laughed and the poster driven out as "short". I for one don't miss those times. But I agree with the OP that those times did exist, so IMO he is right about that.
Now, this seems to be completely irrespective of whether or not the story is true or if they are shorting anything, that doesn't matter when driving someone out as a a short. Even politeness or civility didn't matter really, because the poster in this question was very civil and polite. The story was just negative and reflected badly on Tesla - hence it was suspect, suspicious and warranted driving out as a short, goes the old logic...
It is IMO very good that this is changing and I think the TMC of today is a very nicely progressing place with much greater balance on the staffing end, it seems.
Here is the latest on that. Seems like the poster is not finding it so easy to remain civil after the response...
Theft Of Components Off My Model S @ Cleveland Service Center
Basically he misses the times when a claim that car's components were stolen at SC would have been laughed and the poster driven out as "short". I for one don't miss those times. But I agree with the OP that those times did exist, so IMO he is right about that.
Now, this seems to be completely irrespective of whether or not the story is true or if they are shorting anything, that doesn't matter when driving someone out as a a short. Even politeness or civility didn't matter really, because the poster in this question was very civil and polite. The story was just negative and reflected badly on Tesla - hence it was suspect, suspicious and warranted driving out as a short, goes the old logic...
It is IMO very good that this is changing and I think the TMC of today is a very nicely progressing place with much greater balance on the staffing end, it seems.
Here is the latest on that. Seems like the poster is not finding it so easy to remain civil after the response...
Here's the thing: How do you remain civil if your car seats were stolen during/over a Tesla Service Center visit?
There is no nice, inoffensive way of expressing that experience, even if you act calm as a clam and use very nice and careful language. Someone will be offended, even though nobody should be offended.
I don't know if the story is true or not, and it doesn't even matter to my point. If it is true, there is no inoffensive way of expressing it. The story will be offensive to someone who identifies with or takes the side of Tesla, for whatever reason.
There is no nice, inoffensive way of expressing that experience, even if you act calm as a clam and use very nice and careful language. Someone will be offended, even though nobody should be offended.
I don't know if the story is true or not, and it doesn't even matter to my point. If it is true, there is no inoffensive way of expressing it. The story will be offensive to someone who identifies with or takes the side of Tesla, for whatever reason.
Calling people "shorts" is uncivil behavior. So is interrupting a conversation with a complaint that's been well aired. You said you disagree with me (verbally and by voting) that this conversation is about tone, but I still don't see how it isn't. Either side can be uncivil. Perhaps you think that everyone's OK with short-calling and troll-calling. Allow me to set the record straight on that - I am absolutely as turned off by that as I am by the opposite.
So harder, more difficult points aren't so easy to discuss?
I don't believe that's unique to TMC, online forums, or life. That's why we avoid politics and religion in casual conversation. I can't imagine you're suggesting that discussing hard things should be just as easy as discussing easy things.I stand by my assertion that one can communicate a message effectively with the right tone. And yes, sometimes it's hard. If they fail, the community experiences some level of "degradation".
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Never hurts to repeat it. Appreciated.
So harder, more difficult points aren't so easy to discuss?
No, I'm not. I just think they should be hard simply because the topics are hard, not because the discussion's mere existence causes offense. And to me it feels sometimes that merely discussing certain uncomfortable topics is sufficient to be deemed uncivil and/or that the tolerance level of repeat discussions for such topics is significantly lower that for some other nicer topics - in such cases simply being civil and having a polite tone doesn't help much.
Civility and politeness doesn't help (enough) if the topic itself is deemed toxic.
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Both sides (or many sides) of this debate have people grouping up, joining together thinking the same. Why doesn't the other side get it - we here get it. It isn't our communication, the other side just isn't getting it. Then get the usual names pressing Like, Love, Helpful to each other and most often not to the other side.
And this tit-for-tat continues...
It is only human, as said. Nobody is perfect, this is just the way it goes.
If you feel frustrated by it, rest assured someone is equally frustrated by you not getting it.
That was a joke, sir. For the record I agree That @ohmman should not repeat himself over and over, nor should you or I. I will also note that 18 of the last 50 posts in this thread are yours, so maybe all 3 of us ought to stand back a while and see what others have to say.
Personally I find that sometimes it takes a lot of posts to communicate thoughts and ideas - and advance mutual understanding (not agreement, just understanding).
The opposite can of course happen too. Nature of the beast. But for example it remains to me unclear what e.g. @ohmman may agree with me or not. I respect his choice to bow out, just noting that it leaves me uncertain of what he thinks.
3Victoria
Active Member
Well, the first step is not to declare 'fraud' at the beginning (or ever) of the conversation. Simply express what the problem is: "On xxx day, Tesla said '.....' (reference), and to date I have not seen evidence that that has actually occurred. Did I miss something, cause it is upsetting me. " The word 'fraud' is a very serious accusation with legal implications for the addressee and the one making the allegation. Best avoided. If one really thinks there is fraud, then they should be approaching the authorities.
Well the discussion on this thread has become remarkably civilised since a couple of pages, no? Thanks to everyone for that, and thanks to the OP for having initiated the thread - probably proof that TMC can have a much higher standard than the average forum. I too have no objection to anyone voicing any opinion, and even if I would consider an opinion the darn stupidest thing I ever read, I will either try to answer, or just ignore it (depending on how much intellectual energy I have left that evening ). I certainly agree with @ohmman that if you want to get a message across, ranting never helps - I in any case never understood why @wk057, who has so much intelligent things to say, sometimes does that in a ranting way.
Now, @wk057 obviously isn't a troll or someone who calls other users names, he's just a bit too passionate sometimes about his findings. There are, on the other hand, five or six out there who are indeed trolls and/or do like name calling. That's probably an impressively small number, for an internet forum, but probably moderators (if they have the time) should send those people more warnings; this thread shows that such a discussion can work to civilise people.
NB: I mentioned earlier that the Low Countries forum was magically civilised. A few days ago a venerable Low Countries forum member, @Xfrank, started distributing, for free, TMC stickers (hidden at SuperChargers - you wouldn't know where to find them except if you followed the specific thread on the Belgium & Netherlands forum). That's just beautiful imho. You can't start insulting someone on the forum if you risk crossing her or him at a SuperCharger and you both have that TMC sticker
Thanks to everyone for that, and thanks to the OP for having initiated the thread - probably proof that TMC can have a much higher standard than the average forum. I too have no objection to anyone voicing any opinion, and even if I would consider an opinion the darn stupidest thing I ever read, I will either try to answer, or just ignore it (depending on how much intellectual energy I have left that evening ). I certainly agree with @ohmman that if you want to get a message across, ranting never helps - I in any case never understood why @wk057, who has so much intelligent things to say, sometimes does that in a ranting way. Now, @wk057 obviously isn't a troll or someone who calls other users names, he's just a bit too passionate sometimes about his findings
. There are, on the other hand, five or six out there who are indeed trolls and/or do like name calling. That's probably an impressively small number, for an internet forum, but probably moderators (if they have the time) should send those people more warnings; this thread shows that such a discussion can work to civilise people.NB: I mentioned earlier that the Low Countries forum was magically civilised. A few days ago a venerable Low Countries forum member, @Xfrank, started distributing, for free, TMC stickers (hidden at SuperChargers - you wouldn't know where to find them except if you followed the specific thread on the Belgium & Netherlands forum). That's just beautiful imho. You can't start insulting someone on the forum if you risk crossing her or him at a SuperCharger and you both have that TMC sticker
Of course, I agree that it would be a serious accusation.
But my point is, there is no inoffensive way of expressing such a view, if that would be what you really, sincerely believe to be the case. What if you actually even have evidence?
What you suggest is actually not expressing the full view at all, simply individual facts on the outskirts of the view. If you make a claim that is taken as offensive, it will be offensive even if it is true. That's the problem that civility can't make go away, and that was my point.
@JoeRinke was met with a similar issue for his claim that his car's seats were stolen during/over a Tesla Service Center visit. That is a serious claim no doubt, and it was presented well IMO, but it also caused offence - in the OP @jeffro01 of this thread no less... I guess contributing further to his feeling of degrading of this community and missing the times when the likes of @JoeRinke would have been shouted out as shorts.
I guess @JoeRinke could have used some other word as "theft". Maybe he could have said his car seats mysteriously were swapped to old, worn out seats. But I'm not sure if that would serve the discourse.
Theft Of Components Off My Model S @ Cleveland Service Center
Mind you, I have no idea if @JoeRinke is truthful. How could I, neither has @jeffro01, who has been very active "against" @JoeRinke.
Ok. Perfect test case. Here's a new thread started Wednesday. First post by new member. Spectacular story. Hard to get all the facts. All the suspicious earmarks. But in 2 pages and 32 posts, no "short" accusations, just members trying to help. I really do not think members are as nasty as @AnxietyRanger suggests.
[Urgent] Spontaneous Suspension Failure + Lack Of Tesla Support
[Urgent] Spontaneous Suspension Failure + Lack Of Tesla Support
Hey, my argument was that TMC has been getting better in this regard.
The "12 shorts" was the old situation --- the one that @jeffro01, the OP of this thread, was lamenting was gone and was longing after.
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