Degradation of the Community...

[buttershrimp]

Mmph, indeed.... no more Tom foolery, no more bally who.... It seems to me that we've done good work in therapy this week and our group psychotherapy is progressing nicely... oktane, you've come a long way since threatening to decapitate your enemies and burn them alive, and calisnow, you've also done a lot of good work this week, only groping two TMC members without asking.... well done.

Now, shall I charge this session to your credit card or shall I bill your insurance?

Dr. Buttershrimp

 

[AnxietyRanger]

First of all @jeffro01, thank you again for starting an interesting thread here. It has been educational and hopefully some mutual understanding has been shared in all ways. Seriously.

I hope this response further clears any misunderstanding between us.

For starters, stop putting words into my mouth... I have been busy with other things and didn't have a chance to stop you the first time but now I hope after something like 7 additional posts accusing me of this perhaps this will be the end of it, no?

I was communicating my genuine understanding of your point at the time - I would hope it is apparent any repetition of that stemmed from the same understanding. As for any misunderstanding, I now stand corrected.

I was not lamenting, longing, reminiscing with regards to the past, I was making a factual statement about that thread in that situation. You dislike a LOT of my posts for seemingly no reason so I'm not terribly surprised you'd take something and twist it to fit your own agenda.

Fair enough, you were not longing for that past. Noted and acknowledged.

Just to help you understand why it came across that way. In your posts on the seat theft thread, you noted the same degradation of community that prompted you to start this thread I assume (?), and noted that years ago this same thread would have been laughed out. I'm sure you can see why it came out as longing for the past, right? It certainly seemed like you were longing for the past and still seems to me that way when I read those posts in isolation - your latest post of course now clearing up that misunderstanding.

It also seemed to me that thread's reactions and this thread were connected (timing and subject-wise), hence I brought them up here. I sincerely thought they were connected as they were timed the same and you make the same points in both.

I respect your clarification and note that my understanding contained a misunderstanding. I think this is a good case where continued communication can actually help clear out misunderstandings, so many thanks for taking the time to clarify!

Theft Of Components Off My Model S @ Cleveland Service Center

I have split a couple of the posts due to TMC's quote presentation:

Oh really? Interesting... What exactly does that tell "us"? If you're going to take a back handed swipe at people like myself, at least have the courage to finish your thought...

I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that a Tesla owned service center STOLE things from a customer car, especially things like seats... I mean seriously people...??? Really??? You guys honestly think that Tesla stole the guys seats and did such a poor job doing so that they damaged the wiring???

At least the OP was willing to backup their claims unlike the other thread where the guy made wild accusations without any proof and people hopped on the bandwagon without any hesitation...

TMC is slowly turning from a Tesla enthusiasts site to a Tesla troll site...

Jeff

Perhaps but... That is an exceptionally bad employee... So exceptionally bad that I simply cannot and will not buy that the OP had his seats stolen and done so in that manor. I'm still a bit stunned that so many of you are just taking this claim at face value and running with it.

It goes to show the continued degradation of the user community here. I'm by no means the longest tenured member either by join date or posts but I have been around long enough to see how the community has evolved from very pro-Tesla to borderline anti-Tesla...

A thread with these claims would have been laughed at 3 years ago, the op would have been ran out of town as a "short"... I don't for one moment believe that's the OPs intentions here to be clear, I actually believe the damage (mostly), I just don't believe the story or where the finger is pointing...

Jeff

Yes, he would have, completely irrespective of whether or not the story was true.

I think TMC has improved since those days. This thread has been civil, there is a reasonable amount of doubt overall, a reasonable amount of noting that Tesla as company may also be innocent, etc. So a fairly balanced thread.

I say that is well done TMC. Well done. Running people out as shorts irrespective of them being shorts or not, that was a bad time.

Ther above posts are, again, from this thread:

Theft Of Components Off My Model S @ Cleveland Service Center

That specific thread, I'm still surprised how many just took the story at face value making me out to be the jerk, keeping in mind I wasn't alone in this, for simply questioning the story and playing devils advocate role. Pro-Telsa? Sure, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and while the claim certainly was extraordinary, the evidence was not... You want to buy it? Fine, no skin off of my back but don't attack me for not agreeing with you...

FWIW, I felt your posts came across making the implication that the existense of the thread and entertaining of the OPs story were somehow anti-Tesla. Maybe you did not mean it that way, but I'm sure it added to the frustration. I know personally that I would not have had an issue with someone just pointing out the need to reasonably doubt an online story as well, but indeed - at the time anyway - it seemed to be your reaction went beyond that.

As for the story, I believe it is unknown who did the change of the seats and why, but apparently @JoeRinke 's story is at least true in the sense that Tesla is investigating. I'd say the rogue employee or rogue contractor theory is at least plausible, for example.

Joe doesn't know me, I don't know him. But I do know he is telling the truth and Tesla is investigating. I personally appreciate @JoeRinke's understanding that this is likely a rogue employee. It def isn't how the company operates.

Finally, I think it was this bolded section of your first response to the @JoeRinke thread that set some people off. It seemed like there was an implication - given TMCs history - that @JoeRinke was a short or otherwise merely anti-Tesla posting. If this was not your intent, I just want to point it out that it came out that way.

Come on... I guess I'll be "that guy" again... You people can't possibly buy this story can you??? I mean seriously, come on... We're expected to believe that a Tesla, company owned, service center stole a customers seats and did such a poor job they damaged wiring in the process? Sounds like as the comments have went on more of you are seeing this for what it likely is... Wow...

Just when you think you've seen it all here...

Jeff

 

[Electroman]

Okay onto the next problem on 'degradation'. I will try to put is diplomatically, succinctly.

Once I put AnxietyRanger on ignore - my only one on the ignore list. Two days later I come back to TMC and I see the message, 'There are no new posts'

If he cuts his postings by 1/10th he will still be over-communicating

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Okay onto the next problem on 'degradation'. I will try to put is diplomatically, succinctly.

Once I put AnxietyRanger on ignore - my only one on the ignore list. Two days later I come back to TMC and I see the message, 'There are no new posts'

If he cuts his postings by 1/10th he will still be over-communicating

If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger, right?

 

[malcolm]

Mmph, indeed.... no more Tom foolery, no more bally who....

Awwww.. I was looking forward to a game of bally who. IIRC it's kinda like Tally Hoe.

 

[Canuck]

Awwww.. I was looking forward to a game of bally who. IIRC it's kinda like Tally Hoe.

I don't like when jokes go over my head so you had me looking up a couple of words with this one... I like the example Merrian-Webster dictionary gives to recent examples of ballyhoo being used:

Definition of ballyhoo
1: a noisy attention-getting demonstration or talk
2: flamboyant, exaggerated, or sensational promotion or publicity
3: excited commotion

Tax reform, which was rolled out to much ballyhoo by the Trump administration, remains nothing more than a broad outline of proposals -- none of which have begun to make their way through the legislative process.

The phrase tally-ho is a largely British phrase, which originated from the activity of foxhunting, and other forms of hunting with hounds, shouted when a rider or follower sees the fox. Today the term has evolved to have other meanings, most of which relate to 'pointing out' or 'spotting' a 'target'. For example, it is sometimes used as slang in air traffic control to verify a radar contact has been visually confirmed.[1]

Good ones! My guess would have been they were the names of country square dances or something like that.

If you're looking for ballyhoo and tally-ho, you only need to go here:

snippiness

 

[bonnie]

Finally, I think it was this bolded section of your first response to the @JoeRinke thread that set some people off. It seemed like there was an implication - given TMCs history - that @JoeRinke was a short or otherwise merely anti-Tesla posting. If this was not your intent, I just want to point it out that it came out that way.

This has now become ridiculous. Never once did I think that anyone could turn negative a post defending a new forum member. I could see a new member was being doubted, I knew that he was working with Tesla for resolution. This recasting of facts needs to stop, even when followed up with a 'If this was not your intent' kind of statement. There was nothing in that post to cause it to be quoted in an entirely different thread, unless you wanted to plant a seed that I was saying or doing things that I have not been doing.

What if I said things like 'You have quite the game going on here, it appears that you're doing x and y and that implies z, I just want to point out that it came out that way.' THAT would be extremely passive-aggressive and unacceptable. And if you tried to defend yourself, I would throw up my hands and say 'I said IF. I didn't accuse you of that!!!'. (Note, I could have given specific examples, but that WOULD be passive-aggressive and attacking YOU rather than discussing the issue.)

Consider that some people use ignore not to create an echo chamber, but because they are trying to stay on the high road and not respond to word games.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger, right?

It's not necessary to post the same things repeatedly in the same thread. You've done this elsewhere, for example:

Blog - Tesla Workers Say Skipped Soft-Tooling Phase Ups Danger Inside 'Production Hell'

Posting multiple times that you wanted to discuss the Model 3 tooling rather than the unionization issue was at best annoying and at worst rude. If people had wanted to discuss the tooling issue more, they would have done so. Make your point and move on. Continuing to bring up the subject and mentioning my user name, without adding any new material just meant that I kept getting notifications for repetitive and substantively empty posts.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's not necessary to post the same things repeatedly in the same thread. You've done this elsewhere, for example:

Blog - Tesla Workers Say Skipped Soft-Tooling Phase Ups Danger Inside 'Production Hell'

Posting multiple times that you wanted to discuss the Model 3 tooling rather than the unionization issue was at best annoying and at worst rude. If people had wanted to discuss the tooling issue more, they would have done so. Make your point and move on. Continuing to bring up the subject and mentioning my user name, without adding any new material just meant that I kept getting notifications for repetitive and substantively empty posts.

I understand that is your point. I don't disagree completely, certainly I do think there is a limit. I guess there is a disagreement on where to draw the line.

For example, in this thread IMO without repetition certain misunderstandings would simply have remained. The repetition is not for the sake of repetition but to re-explain positions when discussing with various people. Once understanding is reached (not agreement, mind you), the repetition is no longer needed.

IMO sometimes stopping too soon is rude too, it leaves the other party hanging. It is a balancing act with many opinions, of course. My opinion is just mine.

As for that thread you linked to, IMO, I was trying to discuss the subject matter. I did not discuss anyone's post count or the like.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This has now become ridiculous. Never once did I think that anyone could turn negative a post defending a new forum member. I could see a new member was being doubted, I knew that he was working with Tesla for resolution. This recasting of facts needs to stop, even when followed up with a 'If this was not your intent' kind of statement. There was nothing in that post to cause it to be quoted in an entirely different thread, unless you wanted to plant a seed that I was saying or doing things that I have not been doing.

What if I said things like 'You have quite the game going on here, it appears that you're doing x and y and that implies z, I just want to point out that it came out that way.' THAT would be extremely passive-aggressive and unacceptable. And if you tried to defend yourself, I would throw up my hands and say 'I said IF. I didn't accuse you of that!!!'. (Note, I could have given specific examples, but that WOULD be passive-aggressive and attacking YOU rather than discussing the issue.)

Consider that some people use ignore not to create an echo chamber, but because they are trying to stay on the high road and not respond to word games.

My comment was aimed at @jeffro01, who remained suspicious of @JoeRinke. Not you.

Your message was there just as evidence of @JoeRinke telling a truthful story. I was quoting you as a source of truth.

I have no disagreement with your message in the @JoeRinke thread, quite the contrary.

This here is the trouble of text and why we need repetition at times, we just talk past each other so easily...

 

[bonnie]

My comment was aimed at @jeffro01.

Not you.

Your message was there just as evidence of @JoeRinke telling a truthful story. I was quoting you as a source of truth.

I have no disagreement with your message in the @JoeRinke thread.

You quote my post. You reference the bolded part of my post. You analyze my post. But okay. And why are you 'aiming' anything at someone who has clearly stated they are going to try to behave better? He's owned his part in things. (One of my favorite sayings from working in Puerto Rico is, "The chicken is already dead.")

We could all go through a member's postings and find different posts to make that person look really bad. And then instead of discussing something like the purpose of this thread, that person will understandably feel a need to defend themselves. And the thread devolves.

My comment still stands. "Consider that some people use ignore not to create an echo chamber, but because they are trying to stay on the high road and not respond to word games."

 

[Electroman]

The volume of posts from AR is borderline spamming. I know he is not intending to, but the effect is the same. There was one particular topic that was contentious - I am not able to now recollect which one - in which AR nearly had 40% of the post count. It gets tiring to hear others through the noise.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@bonnie Obviously I should have been clearer. It truly never occurred my quoting of a message from another thread (one I had liked? no less) would be read like that.

Part of the repetition is non-perfect communication. I make mistakes there as much as anyone.

 

[EinSV]

 

[wk057]

This thread has been pinging me for a bit now, so figured I would chime in.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a professional writer, nor in any way am I the best at presenting things I discover. That said, when I do post something worthwhile, I do try my best to be clear, convey the facts, and try to get my point across to everyone across the spectrum from the savvy to the layman. I do feel like I succeed in that aspect, usually.

There's no argument that I have been critical of Tesla for many things in the past. Unlike many who just feel the need to bash Tesla over any little thing, I'll tend to backup my criticism with facts and findings. I've told many people who've asked me personally: I love Tesla's products. I downright hate the company and many of their shady practices, particularly customer-facing marketing. Anyone who has been affected by their practices along these lines will certainly concur.

When I present things that can show something positive for Tesla (like the thread about my 100kWh pack inside look which showed the capacity to be over 100 kWh, which contained technical and generic information) then the tone is much different here than when I post something that can be taken as critical of Tesla.

My problem with this particular forum tends to be that it IS full of people who will defend Tesla and their actions, regardless of the facts. I mean really, just go check out any thread that says something negative about Tesla, a Tesla, product, experience, etc. Sure, there are a few reasonable folks who try to keep things civil, but in the end the thread is overrun and driven so far off-topic that it doesn't even make sense to follow it anymore. Anyone who is asking legit on-topic questions gets drowned out by the noise, and it doesn't make sense to sift through the noise to continue contributing to a thread that ends up like this.

I don't pretend to understand people's motives for doing so. As I've read elsewhere, "The internets will internet." Seems to be a pretty common thing for popular forums to end up being overrun by uselessness, "trolls", etc. Definitely hard to actually have a civilized discussion about anything important on a public internet forum in general.

I eventually created my own little site (that I've not had time for, admittedly) so that I could post whatever without worrying about random nonsense from people who want to drive the conversation. People can see the information, do what they want with it... or not. I don't have any particular need for fandom or affirmation of my writings/rants/findings/etc. I just like to share things occasionally.

I also contribute regularly to unrelated forums and moderate for one of them which is exponentially larger in user base than this one. That one, actually, ends up requiring minimal moderator involvement, despite having post volumes easily 20x of TMC. It does have the self-moderation feature when creating a thread (which I put in a feature request for here and was shot down) which allows a thread creator to delete any post made in the thread. It works wonders. It isn't used for every thread, but is used for many, especially technical ones where conversations tend to get way off topic. Threads that use it are marked as such and the poster's know their posts can be removed by the thread creator. Usually the thread creators of self-moderated threads put notes in their opening post about what they will remove. It's by far the best feature I've ever seen on a forum. (For those curious, I intend to keep my forum identities partitioned and am not revealing specifics of other forums I'm involved in.)

On that note, I have tons in my backlog to write about. Tidbits to come at some point that I've gains knowledge of: Tons of Model 3 leaked technical specs (including the battery pack info you may have already heard about elsewhere...), surprising results of what is now years of independent Tesla battery cell testing, 1000+HP 3000EV project about to finally enter the next phase (almost driveable), my plan to get Tesla drive units in the hands of the masses at very reasonable costs, etc.

But, I'm probably not going to ever seriously consider TMC as my goto for anything important as my first place to present things unless something is done to make things significantly more contributor-friendly, such as a self-moderation option. So, probably best ya'll keep an eye on my Twitter and Youtube in the meantime.

-wk

 

[lunitiks]

 

[bhzmark]

self-moderation feature when creating a thread which allows a thread creator to delete any post made in the thread. It works wonders.

second

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@wk057 marches in and the rest of us look like useless fools again.

*bow*

 

[Carl]

Wk - I think more or less everyone would appreciate you continuing to share on this forum your findings and information. I agree threads should stay on topic and, even more importantly, there should be a sort of zero tolerance for those passive aggressive posts which are aimed less at the opinion than at the person behind the opinion. There are enough forums on the internet for that type of people to live their (rather strange) life; they shouldn't be allowed to be doing that on TMC.

I'm not sure self-moderation works in general (it certainly would work with a thread starter who wanted to keep things technical, matter-of-fact and objective) but there are some threads started by people seeking controversy for the pleasure of controversy, and more in general I think that may not work with thread starters who unlike you don't have the habit of moderating forums - it could be ten threads on the same subject with ten different colours to them, as I think bonnie was saying, if I understood her correctly.

I started a thread once with the (for me, and perhaps others) interesting question whether, while hopping between SuperChargers, one can count on the fact that the delta between typical range and actual consumption will remain linear and thus predictable (i.e. the car will not suddenly drop dead below you with 15km typical range left). First reply immediately derailed this innocent question into something like "you're an idiot and you know nothing about how to preserve battery life". And the rest of the thread was about battery life, 20%-80% charges, and other in se very interesting things which were unfortunately totally irrelevant as answers to my innocent question - plus some other "you're an irresponsible idiot" posts .

 

[Canuck]

My problem with this particular forum tends to be that it IS full of people who will defend Tesla and their actions, regardless of the facts.

If you've been reading here you must have to agree that this was in the past and the pendulum has now swung the other way? Especially with AP2.0 problems, getting to people to buy with the lure of free supercharging expiring then changing that, slowed supercharging, etc., etc.?

I even find myself criticizing Tesla more than commending them lately -- just look at my past posts and you'll probably be surprised -- but in the end it comes down to baby/bathwater for me and that's the ultimate point I like to make, while waiting for competition to come online, and with not even one other automaker pulling a permit to date to build a fast charging network it looks like I'll be in a love/hate relationship with Tesla for a while, but that's like a lot of things in life, and I'm not so naive to think we won't have a lot to complain about with any other corporation that makes long range EV vehicles and has the immense pressure of increasing profits like we place on corporations today.

But let's assume there's a lot more of "Tesla can do no wrong" people here than you would like, why do you even care? I enjoy debating the "Tesla only does wrong" people, except when they derail threads and repeat the same things over and over, but my skin is thick and it rolls off. Plus, you had more rep points here than anyone except Bonnie so you certainly had tons of people here who agreed with you.

But, I'm probably not going to ever seriously consider TMC as my goto for anything important as my first place

Because of the die-hard Tesla supporters? I find that odd. You get a ton of rep but the people who constantly defend Tesla get so under your skin you punish the rest of us (or maybe I'm not part of the "rest of us") but you punish them, and all your supporters, like @AnxietyRanger who bows in worship of you (but certainly doesn't speak for me):

@wk057 marches in and the rest of us look like useless fools again.
*bow*

I don't get your reasoning but I think you like to tell us you're punishing us without your presence here. I'd like you here but my life goes on and it makes absolutely no difference to me. All you have done is make the Tesla worshipers win by driving you off, and you punish your fans.

Hopefully, you can tell me the errors of my reasoning here.