Don’t order SR or MR if your winter is cold.

[Glamisduner]

Car needs a propane heater option

 

[mswlogo]

Sooooo if 50% is absurd then my car is broken..... Over 6k miles in about 6 weeks..... Haven't been under 30° really. And this does not factor Vampire loss. Oh and every night it's in bottom floor of parking garage (3 floors down) which is still about 60° at all times. Garage does not have charging, but car is warm (~60° every morning).

View attachment 354016

That is extremely small amount of data to make any kind of serious judgement. But I see about 22% loss.
A short drive is not an accurate measurement because the car is stressed at first (just as an ICE vehicle is).

So I took one of your long low efficiency drives and one of your long high efficiency drives and looked at the ratio.

Did you change to winter tires as well?

How's your tire pressure as temps have dropped?

Everything matters.

 

[BobAbooey]

Over the recent couple of cold spats in CO I've averaged about 280 wh/m when parking in the garage and about 300 wh/m on the one night I had to park outside (temp got down to ~20° F). Usage generally starts out high and then goes down as things warm up, so the longer I drive for the lower my average gets. My normal usage in warmer temps is about 260 wh/m, so no where near 50% losses (more like 8-13%). I do keep it plugged in at night so I don't have vampire drain to worry about, but I don't bother timing it to finish late so the battery is still pretty cold in the morning.

Is this how you would figurer ur kWh mileage?

1000 / 260 = 3.85 miles per kWh used, that’s what you were getting at 260 wh/m?

 

[Runt8]

Is this how you would figurer ur kWh mileage?

1000 / 260 = 3.85 miles per kWh used, that’s what you were getting at 260 wh/m?

Yes, that's correct.

 

[BobAbooey]

So, assuming you 'normally' would get rated range on the car (which, as we can see here, a LOT of folks don't...), you're at 37% worse during cold periods?

I leave for work at night my car has a rating of 278 miles when I get home in the morning my car is at around 155, that’s when it was 30f last week. My car also sits in a uncovered parking lot overnight

 

[BobAbooey]

Yes, that's correct.

Cool thank you ,

 

[acoste]

This capacity curve is for Li NCA battery. That's what Tesla uses. Of course there might be slight differences by each manufacturer. But shows the situation well. At low temperatures the chemical process is slower or may not happen at all. Therefore the usable capacity decreases and the current is limited.
For example, following the curve at -18 deg C by drawing 2A (normalized ) current, the usable capacity is 80%. By drawing 4A it is down to 25%. And can't draw 10A at all.
However at 25 deg C capacity remains near 100% even at 10A. This curve also explains why the battery needs heating in ludicrous mode.

And same applies for self-discharge (leakage or vampire) current. Since the chemical process is slower at low temperature, the self-discharge current is lower. Most of the vampire current in Tesla is caused by electric consumers instead of the battery.
The self discharge graph is not an NCA battery, just an example. As you can see, the lower the temp, the lower the current.

 

[voip-ninja]

86.1 miles driven in mostly 30's but some 20's temperatures. Range used, ~150 miles. 50% hit? No, but close.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Tesla must be getting desperate, if they're using sock puppets to upsell the LR.

 

[ggnykk]

Is 50% real for the Model 3?
One thing about very cold (<10F) weather is that when you start out after the car has been cold soaked, the battery state looks terrifyingly low. However, it does recover quite a bit after it warms up. Another nasty effect is that the car won't accept much charge until the battery warms. We've found that it's better to drive around for 20 minutes to warm up the battery, then plug into a Supercharger, rather than plug in when the battery is still cold.

It is best to charge up your car overnight and end the charge around the time you need the car, and also pre-heat the car while still plugged in, then you would avoid most of those issues.
In addition, you don't need to drive 20 minutes to warm the battery for supercharging, you can try to do hard acceleration from like 10 to 50 mph, and then let it regen down to 10, and accelerate quickly to 50 again, and then regen. You do this for a couple times, and your battery would be warm in less than 5 mins.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Kinda assumes Lots of things here. We have a 30 KWh battery in our leaf. It does everything we need it to do everyday during the winter....and every other day, winter or not. A short range Tesla had twice the size of battery of our leaf. We are ordering our model 3 with the long range battery but only because our needs are changing. Otherwise a short range model 3 would be more than adequate for our PRESENT needs. Everybody has a different need. 200 km of range suits all of our needs right now. But that will change in about 18 months. Can’t wait.

 

[eloder]

80 mile summer range econo EV user here.

If you happen to be in the maybe 1% of users who regularly need to commute over 125 miles a day, you indeed should do your research to see if EVs are right for you.

Though for those users, they would save so much gas that higher range upgrades would pay for themselves on quite a small time scale.

 

[Jdee2wheels]

I commute 10 miles each way, and since my charging situation is not ideal at the moment, I have only been charging once, maybe twice a week as needed. Under these conditions and with temperatures in the mid 30s (F) at night, my efficiency has plummeted...it’s not quite 50% of what I remember in warmer months, but it sure seems to be getting close. As someone not very familiar with EVs prior to owning this car, it’s certainly a bit alarming and unexpected that the efficiency is so low now...and it hasn’t even gotten that cold yet.

 

[mmd]

One factor is that to prolong battery life, EVs are recommended to be charged to 90%, but gas tanks you fill up 100% every time. It doesn't damage the gas tank. To make matters worse, Tesla superchargers have a 40 min limit. You can't really go too far with that. Probably can't even make to next SC at some places? If your KWh/mile is high, that means lot more time spent charging the car on long trips than driving. Long trips is when people drive fast too. That means, more crowded super chargers. That means, more wait times at super chargers. It's a vicious loop. Even the super charging is slow in cold weather.

So is Tesla going to recompute the fuel savings and EPA range on Model 3 order page?
Will it issue refunds again ? Here was Hyundai issuing refunds, for just 3% higher mpg claim.
Home Page - Hyundai MPG Info

EPA finds Hyundai exaggerated fuel economy claims, refunds coming to customers

 

[BobAbooey]

One factor is that to conserve battery life, EVs are recommended to be charged to 90%, but gas tanks you fill up 100% everytime. It doesn't damage the gas tank. To make matters worse, Tesla superchargers have a 40 min limit. You can't really go too far with that. Probably can't even make to next SC at some places? If your KWh/mile is high, that means lot more time spent charging the car on long trips than driving. Long trips is when people drive fast too. That means, more crowded super chargers. That means, more wait times at super chargers. It's a vicious loop. Even the super charging is slow in cold weather.

So is Tesla going to recompute the fuel savings and EPA range on Model 3 order page?
Will it issue refunds again ? Here was Hyundai issuing refunds, for just 3% higher mpg claim.
Home Page - Hyundai MPG Info

EPA finds Hyundai exaggerated fuel economy claims, refunds coming to customers

View attachment 354160

I’m so confused

 

[Knightshade]

One factor is that to conserve battery life, EVs are recommended to be charged to 90%, but gas tanks you fill up 100% everytime. It doesn't damage the gas tank.

And if taking a long trip charging to 100% occasionally won't hurt the battery either.

It's only doing it every time that can (and even then it's a bit exaggerated by how much)

To make matters worse, Tesla superchargers have a 40 min limit.

.... what?

I've been to like half a dozen different SCs now, and none had any time limit at all when charging the car...

(there's an idle limit when done, and the SC is more than half full- but that's only after you're done charging and still taking up space)

You can't really go too far with that.

You can charge to about 80% with that, assuming you come in very low on charge, and even if the time limit existed- which in my experience so far it doesn't.

Probably can't even make to next SC at some places? If your KWh/mile is high, that means lot more time spent charging the car on long trips than driving.

No, it really doesn't, because that's not how math works.

Even if it took the least efficient charging plan possible- charging to 100% each SC stop, you'd be there a max of maybe 60-90 minutes depending what charge you came in at- and could then drive for at least 3-4 hours at anything remotely near a legal speed.

 

[DrDabbles]

You should expect at least 50% reduction in real-world range due to decreased battery efficiency, increased need for heating, increased vampire battery drain.

It hasn't even been cold in this area yet, so this isn't based on real world experience. Report back in February, and it'll be a bit more informed. Either way, I'm guessing your commute is short, you aren't pre-heating the cabin on shore power, or you have something wrong with you car.

Actual winter usage in a Tesla is extremely well covered by the Now You Know guys, Bjørn Nyland, KMan Auto, and several other popular cold climate youtubers. None of them have reported anything like 50% reduction. You should call Tesla if you're seeing that kind of loss, because it's not even close to normal.

 

[mmd]

A
.... what?

I've been to like half a dozen different SCs now, and none had any time limit at all when charging the car...

(there's an idle limit when done, and the SC is more than half full- but that's only after you're done charging and still taking up space)

You are probably right. I think I read that somewhere about 40 mins limit, but I cannot find any ref now. I am editing that out if I can.

Edit: OK. here is what I remembered. Seems it is a California thing. And on charging to 100% - it just takes much longer to fill up the last 20%. For local commuting and chargign at home, this is not a big issues.
Enough Superchargers for Thanksgiving?

This past Saturday every single SC in the East and South Bay SF areas was backed from ~8AM to ~6PM. Appeaared to be mostly locals from listening to them and watching all the shoppers shopping. All the ones I used had a 40 minute limit. There were a couple of cars using SCs when I got in line that were still there when I left after 40 minutes.

About the speed limit and 3-4 hrs driving: here I-5 between Sacramento and San Diego has 70 mph speed limit, But who drives at that? At 75 mph, you have to go by the right lane. Normal speed in CA is always 10-15 mph more than the legal speed limit.

 

[Subhuman]

While 50% may be a little bit of an exaggeration I personally did not fully appreciate the impact of cold weather and am I a little disappointed at how much of a hit the vehicle does take.

I have a 160 mile round trip commute to work with no option of charging at work. I charge to 90% daily and arrive back home with between 12%-18% remaining charge which equates to about 200 mile total range.

The problem is I really have to think about where I drive throughout the day such has going to get lunch, work meetings, or taking my kids to extracurricular activities after work. I can easily end up driving over 230 miles in one day. At 310 rated range I thought I had plenty of headroom but I am finding out that is not the case. I’m finding myself having to make a quick stop at a supercharger or leave myself enough time to top off at home.

Even in the summer time I never came close to the rate range of 250 Wh/mi. I was averaging just shy of 300 Wh/mi in warm weather now am averaging closer to 360 Wh/mi cold weather.

 

[DrDabbles]

I have a 160 mile round trip commute to work with no option of charging at work. I charge to 90% daily and arrive back home with between 12%-18% remaining charge which equates to about 200 mile total range.

Ok, but by your own numbers you've only lost 40 miles on a 310 mile battery pack. That's 12-13% loss, no? I'm not saying it isn't inconvenient, but it's not nearly as drastic as a claimed 50% loss.