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Double vision (ghosting) at night through windshield?

Discussion in 'Model X: Interior & Exterior' started by rmiggins, Jan 19, 2016.

  1. sneezydwarf

    sneezydwarf Member

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    I think our cars were probably in the same production batch - I am also VIN 18XX 90D Blue. Local SC also had not heard of this before, so I need to take pictures tonight for them.
     
  2. Jeff McClure

    Jeff McClure Member

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    Of course you can use the photos. :)
     
  3. eleXtrons

    eleXtrons Member

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    I noticed this annoying double image problem (actually triple image if light source is bright enough). I see it during the day on very bright specular highlight reflections of the sun. This is on a Model X delivered late in March. I googled the problem and found this thread. I first noticed the issue when looking at a bunch of cars stopped at a stoplight far ahead of me, but it was in bright sunshine and the backs of the cars were glinting. This caused very bright, sharp green dots floating above the cars at about the perceived height of the stop lights. It looked like there were more green lights on the stop lights than there should have been and that was what caught my attention.
     
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  4. FA1820

    FA1820 Member

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    @eleXtrons. It could be a problem with the tinting process or the curvature of the windshield itself. I am not sure which one as the technicians I've spoken to a have not heard of the issue, so it is anybody's guess at this point. The good news (if there is one) is that it is replicable during the day time and can be remedied sooner than the rest of us. Just got to a SC and ask a technician to take a ride with you. I encounter the double vision problem at night only which is harder to prove or resolve. I took a few shots from inside the car when it was parked on the side of the road and sent them over, so far have not heard back from Tesla. Hopefully, they will call me soon.
     
  5. Jeff McClure

    Jeff McClure Member

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    Based on review of the photos of the issue (see post above) the service center has ordered a new windshield for me.
     
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  6. FA1820

    FA1820 Member

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    Glad that you got it resolved. I am still in what one might call "limbo" land. It is very disappointing; really not what I had expected from Tesla (a luxury car brand ) or the local SC. Still waiting for a call back 3 days into calling it in and have already left a VM for the local SC manager yesterday to no avail.
     
  7. eleXtrons

    eleXtrons Member

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    @Jeff McClure I am surprised that Tesla is ordering you a new windshield. I kind of expected that this is a problem with all the windshields (ie a fundamental artifact of the design of the multi layers in the glass and how the different index of refractions and/or diffraction gratings effect the light). Since I have the same problem with my windshield I am thinking about asking for a replacement as well. My only hesitation might be, I wonder if the replacement install workmanship will be as good as the original? I have seen some pretty crappy windshield replacements in my life, but I would expect Tesla to do a better job than those guys that come out in a pickup truck with cheap, wavy glass to do replacements at your home. Once you notice the bright dots floating above sun reflections on cars, it is pretty distracting. (Even more distracting, my polaroid sunglasses make the refracted images bright green). I wear polaroid sunglasses to fix a different design problem on the X, namely that the reflection in the windshield of the seam between the grill part of the dashboard and the solid part of the dashboard creates a horizontal line right across the center of my vision. I wish the perforated grill part (where defrost air comes up) was narrower (like in other cars) so the reflection of the boundary was lower, outside line of vision. I am surprised this subtle design problem was not noticed either (besides the double image problem from the multi-layered glass)
     
  8. greg t

    greg t Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I took delivery of my model S on March 19, 2016. I joined this forum just to tell you i have spent the last week at Tesla Factory Service in Fremont on this issue. It is not curvature, or a spot issue. It is a complete windshield design/manufacturing flaw. I've taken video and sent stills of the triple vision experienced shared by others on this post and provided it to the service team. So far Tesla is in denial, but the pictures and driving experience, especially at night are proof. It is also helpful that other people are noticing this and reporting. I plan on sharing this thread with them.

    I did a comparison at night with my Honda Pilot of the same streets, lighting conditions and pictures for side by side comparison. We also pulled the 2016 model S into the Fremont Service bay to see the triple vision, and then pulled a 3-4 year old (?) Tesla 60 into the bay with the same lighting conditions and did NOT see the triple vision. So this is a recent glazing/tinting issue with the newer windshields.

    I will upload two pictures two show comparison if you give me a hint how to post MS word dox (for compression).

    Either they fix this or its NHTSA time!
     
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  9. greg t

    greg t Member

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    Hi Jeff,

    Please let me know if the new windshield is any different and fixes the problem. We pulled another 2016 model s into the service center to see if it was different and it had the same triple vision defect. This sadly indicated it might be across all new(er) model windshields. I fairly begged them to get me a windshield that would have pre-2016 specs to remove this issue. Looking forward to how your resolution works.

    Greg
     
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  10. FA1820

    FA1820 Member

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    I was told that my local SC manager would contact the engineers to design a new glass for my car! Not for all other model X cars, but mine. I thought they were making a mockery out of this. The design to production to installation process takes many months, having first hand experience with the process, so I have no idea what I am expected to do at night while I am waiting for Tesla to build a new windsheild for me. Considering there were at least 30- 40 cars delivered in the past week and a few more this week and only 3 reported cases, then I don't see why there is a bigger issue here than defected windsheilds, supply issues or lack of proper QC before release. Suffice to say, I'd be happy with whatever else others have on their cars.

    Hope that all goes well for Jeff so that I can get mine replaced as well.

    Greg, last Wednesday there were about 5-8 model S deliveries around noon in Fremont factory. So, if the windshield issue were a design/manufacturing problem, I'd expect more reported case on this site. I am hoping that would not be the case, though.
     
  11. greg t

    greg t Member

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    I think this is going to be a bigger issue and I expect that if this is their production windshield they are going to see a lot more . Point being, I've sat in two 2016 Model S's earlier today (mine and a dealer car) and both had this issue.

    Update: Jeff's April 3 photos are 100% spot on, those are the exact triple vision photos (origin light in the middle and artifact light above and below) I created and shared with Tesla last week. Mine posted below. honda 2.png honda 2.png tesla 2.png honda 2.png tesla 2.png honda 2.png tesla 2.png
     
  12. greg t

    greg t Member

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    Previous post - Honda on top, tesla below.

    This post another tesla pic.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Mark Z

    Mark Z Active Member

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    #33 Mark Z, Apr 7, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    Interesting thread. I never noticed it since a similar problem can occur with vision as the years progress.

    Photos do tell the story when bringing out the microscope. Is it a problem for me? NO. Glass isn't always perfect in windshields. If safety layers cause some issues with ultra bright lights, I'd rather have the safety. I had to search through my windshield photos to find the brightest reflections that feature an angelic halo of light. Most photos look perfect since there are no severe reflections that I zoom into.

    Here is one photo taken through the Model X windshield in the daytime. The original (see thumbnail) cannot be zoomed without pixelation at reasonable compression. I have attached a zoomed screen save closeup that retains the original resolution. You can judge for yourself the double light above the brightest sun reflections during a TeslaClubLA drive near the Los Angeles Zoo. A later photo shows the non-halo sun reflections on the car without the windshield glass.

    Reflections on X.jpg

    Reflections Source.jpg
    Photo taken through the windshield of a teenage VIN Model X Signature.

    Later that day.jpg
    Later that day without the windshield. Note the lack of halos. A few curve reflections are due to the curve of the painted finish.
     
  14. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    #34 cwerdna, Apr 7, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
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  15. greg t

    greg t Member

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  16. FA1820

    FA1820 Member

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    I have noticed the day time reflections/glare issue as well, but manage that effect wearing polarized sun glasses. It has made it less problematic while actually still noticeable. For those who do not have this issue, every approaching car has a few reflective areas. Once they are within 30-40 ft, the light source slowly fades and they look normal again. My daily drive is not too long so it doesn't tire my eyes as much as the night effect does. The pic below is taken inside modelX parked on the side of the road, with the lights off, late at night. The two lone lights in front sky in the picture are the street lights. Looking at these I see clearly that I have both double vision and triple vision. I find it distracting and tiresome. I'll go to my local SC today and figure out how they plan to resolve it.
    image.jpeg
     
  17. aesculus

    aesculus Still Trying to Figure This All Out

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    So I noticed this last night too even though before I did not. It seems to me to be more prevalent on the outer edges of my windshield rather than within the direct viewing area.

    I will be tracking this thread for sure. Hope this does not turn into Windshieldgate.
     
  18. hockeythug

    hockeythug Active Member

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    Any ophthalmologists or light experts on TMC?
     
  19. greg t

    greg t Member

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    FA - please let us know which SC location you go to. We should keep track of SC locations and response. Got my invoice this morning from Fremont SC:

    "Concern: Customer states: windshield duplicates tail light / headlight images that makes driving very distracting. All over the front windshield this is visible. Pictures attached. Inspect and advise.

    Corrections: Windshield, Liftgate & Body Glass General Diagnosis

    Conclusion: No Trouble Found Could not replicate customers concern at this time. Compared with sales vehicle of same year, and also could not replicate concern."

    Their quoted Conclusion above was not inline with the service manager saying we saw it in both 2016's viewed, but it is inline with the "nothing we can do when it is a feature of all the windshields".

    It was fun sitting in the car with them seeing the duplicated Tesla taillights in the distance and the Tesla folks saying "Nope I don't see it..." with me sitting next to them practically yelling "you've got to be kidding me..." Wonderful how even with the pictures they can just deny, deny, deny. I left telling them to take the loaner 2016 out for an overnight drive and tell me what they think. They were not interested in that, and it's also lovely that they "close and open when its not dark, so we can't see it at night with you". So daylight savings is making a difference? It appears the company line is going to be the Toyota Prius approach. They are not going to do anything unless it gets the NHTSA to issue a recall, and i don't think that happened to Toyota.

    Good luck everyone. Speaking as a silicon valley attorney who works for sales and procurement, this is going to be very interesting.
     
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  20. vandacca

    vandacca ReActive Member

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    #40 vandacca, Apr 7, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    I'm not an ophthalmologist (but I did date one once), but I did get a degree in Physics and I've had a number of semesters with optics (albeit, it was 20+ years ago).
    If you're looking for an explanation, I think the most likely cause is refraction/reflection due to the windshield being made up of multiple layers.

    The windshield is likely a sandwich of multiple layers of glass and plastic (e.g. tint, UV film, etc.). Refraction occurs when light passes through different mediums. What's likely happening is the light is being refracted, and then some is being split and reflected (probably twice) and forming the ghost image above/below the actual image.

    During the day, there isn't enough contrast to notice the issue, but at night headlights and streetlights have a very high contrast that makes it very obvious.

    --Update--
    As dwebb66 rightly points out, the windshield angle will also play a major role. If the windshield was vertical (like a Jeep), the separation of image would be significantly less and not likely discernable. The greater the angle, the greater the separation of the reflected image.
     
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