Elon: Autopilot, new constraints on when it can be used

[scottm]

What if it's not just a person doing "crazy things" on youtube, but a corporation (behind that person) who is trying to harm Tesla?

Negative marketing.

However, it's Tesla getting the airtime in the end. So it may not be effective marketing.

 

[mobe]

It does make sure that a driver is in the drivers seat.
It won't work unless the seatbelt is buckled.
That safeguard was simply bypassed.
I think that the seatbelt lockout is perfectly acceptable. I don't see a need to add a seat weight sensor.
If they do then some moron will simply place weight in the seat, buckle the seatbelt and bypass both safety systems.
Meanwhile it will be a pain in the ass, literally, because every time you try to adjust your position in the seat it will disengage the autopilot.
Do folks really believe that the software development team simply forgot to add in the seat sensor? We all know that it was discussed and not implemented because it would not allow folks to be comfortable by adjusting position during trips. These folks are not idiots.
Please Elon, don't put additional restrictions on the system because of the moronic behavior of the 1%.

 

[roblab]

Seems to me that the whole problem started when people took insane videos of what AP could do. Perfectly normal. Yes. Must find out AP's abilities and limitations. I think most of us have done similar. Personally, I need to know what this little eight year old nearsighted child assistant is able to do.

BUT, then everyone gets excited, start to predict doom, restrictions, etc. Elon mentions the videos during the ER. Immediately the forum decides that Tesla will take away AP.

I think the perfect solution is apparent.

Stop taking videos. Everybody's happy.

 

[strider]

It does make sure that a driver is in the drivers seat.
It won't work unless the seatbelt is buckled.
That safeguard was simply bypassed.
I think that the seatbelt lockout is perfectly acceptable. I don't see a need to add a seat weight sensor.
If they do then some moron will simply place weight in the seat, buckle the seatbelt and bypass both safety systems.
Meanwhile it will be a pain in the ass, literally, because every time you try to adjust your position in the seat it will disengage the autopilot.
Do folks really believe that the software development team simply forgot to add in the seat sensor? We all know that it was discussed and not implemented because it would not allow folks to be comfortable by adjusting position during trips. These folks are not idiots.
Please Elon, don't put additional restrictions on the system because of the moronic behavior of the 1%.

But if that person then kills someone Tesla can say that they went through the trouble of bypassing *2* safety systems and that Tesla did everything it could and that the person is at fault, not Tesla.

It would be trivial to give you like 10 seconds or something to lift your butt and pull your shirt down or whatever before it disengages. It's not an all or nothing thing. The car will already drop into park if you lift your butt when the car is barely moving so there is precedent for this kind of check.

 

[mitch672]

The solution is to install a camera looking at the driver. If the autopilot doesn't detect they are looking forward it disengages. This may be one of the cameras in the new 8 camera system mentioned above... it could allow some grace period, before disengaging. It could also detect a "sleepy" driver via head nods, and suggest you pull over and get some rest (eventually it will pull the car over by itself). Extreme driver fatigue/falling asleep at the wheel is a major cause of accidents.

 

[Andyw2100]

With all the discussion of the "crazy videos" I'm surprised no one has posted this one:

[video]http://video.foxnews.com/v/4583711790001/testing-teslas-self-driving-cars/[/video]

It opens with the Fox reporter pretending to read a book while driving, with a Tesla employee in the passenger seat. While I recognize that the Tesla employee was put in a really difficult position once on the air, and honestly have no idea what I might have done if put in that position, the clip does not help the whole "use autopilot responsibly" message Tesla is attempting to send out. This aired on broadcast television. I expect the number of people that saw this dwarfs the number of people exposed to most of the "crazy videos." And there's a huge and dangerous distinction: with those crazy videos it's pretty clear to people watching that the behavior is not appropriate and certainly not sanctioned by Tesla, but with the Fox video a Tesla employee was sitting in the passenger seat as the driver pretended to be reading a book while operating the car. That's a not so subtle message that Tesla must approve of that behavior.

Viewers may realize that the book reading was an exaggeration, but the message that the driver doesn't need to be paying strict attention because the car is in control probably came through loud and clear. That's a dangerous message.

 

[eloder]

My guesses:

1) Autopilot won't let you go more than 5 mph above speed limit. If you're driving illegally (even when the flow of traffic is illegal), autopilot will have no part in assisting you. TACC I'm sure will still be fine. It doesn't make sense that you can autosteer at +35 above the speed limit and this also perhaps has the most liability in causing an accident in curves.
2) "Hold the wheel" indicators much more often or even continuously when autopilot is used in situations it's not meant to be in only. So for example, when there is no divider on the road and on tight curves--by far among the most dangerous autopilot failures out there. I'm guessing this restriction won't impact stop and go traffic, or "not designed for use" situations where you have heavy traffic and/or a front-tracking car, as in these situations autopilot has amazingly high confidence.
3) Seat weight sensor integration.

I don't think people should overreact, Tesla is quite proud about how advanced their autopilot is, and they want to enhance public perception of autopilot for the eventual regulatory battle that Musk will need public support on. Constant nagging won't allow confidence building. The system also has highly advanced learning it appears, and Tesla would be shooting themselves in the foot by not getting a several billion mile head start on data for their super detailed autopilot and future autonomous maps over competitors. Thus, I feel that geofencing is a 100% non-starter as a restriction.

 

[mobe]

But if that person then kills someone Tesla can say that they went through the trouble of bypassing *2* safety systems and that Tesla did everything it could and that the person is at fault, not Tesla.

It would be trivial to give you like 10 seconds or something to lift your butt and pull your shirt down or whatever before it disengages. It's not an all or nothing thing. The car will already drop into park if you lift your butt when the car is barely moving so there is precedent for this kind of check.

How about 3 safety systems, how about 4? Where do they stop?
Have you ever been backing up, twisted to look back over the seat and thought you just slammed into some unseen object because the car slammed into park. I have. I hate it because now I'm afraid to turn and look over my shoulder when backing for fear of trashing the drive unit. ( just an example of good intention gone bad )
Seat sensors were designed to detect a person in the seat for airbag deployment. While I appreciate the out of the box use of them. I personally don't see the need.

- - - Updated - - -

My guesses:

1) Autopilot won't let you go more than 5 mph above speed limit. If you're driving illegally (even when the flow of traffic is illegal), autopilot will have no part in assisting you. TACC I'm sure will still be fine. It doesn't make sense that you can autosteer at +35 above the speed limit and this also perhaps has the most liability in causing an accident in curves.
2) "Hold the wheel" indicators much more often or even continuously when autopilot is used in situations it's not meant to be in only. So for example, when there is no divider on the road and on tight curves--by far among the most dangerous autopilot failures out there. I'm guessing this restriction won't impact stop and go traffic, or "not designed for use" situations where you have heavy traffic and/or a front-tracking car, as in these situations autopilot has amazingly high confidence.
3) Seat weight sensor integration.

I don't think people should overreact, Tesla is quite proud about how advanced their autopilot is, and they want to enhance public perception of autopilot for the eventual regulatory battle that Musk will need public support on. Constant nagging won't allow confidence building. The system also has highly advanced learning it appears, and Tesla would be shooting themselves in the foot by not getting a several billion mile head start on data for their super detailed autopilot and future autonomous maps over competitors. Thus, I feel that geofencing is a 100% non-starter as a restriction.

If they implemented number one it would be worthless on most interstates. The flow here is right at ten over.
I don't know how they would know where to enable the hold the wheel indicators for situations where it's not meant to be used.

 

[Ingineer]

I hate it because now I'm afraid to turn and look over my shoulder when backing for fear of trashing the drive unit.

FYI: This does not hurt the drive unit at all. "Park" is effected by the rear electric calipers being applied. You can apply these at any speed without any stress on the drive unit. They were built for both parking and emergency use in the event the main hydraulic system fails.

However it is definitely annoying! If your seat belt is on, it will not do this.

 

[strider]

How about 3 safety systems, how about 4? Where do they stop?

Well, they stop when the lawyers and/or regulators tell them to. Why do we need warnings on chainsaws and lawnmowers?

Have you ever been backing up, twisted to look back over the seat and thought you just slammed into some unseen object because the car slammed into park. I have. I hate it because now I'm afraid to turn and look over my shoulder when backing for fear of trashing the drive unit. ( just an example of good intention gone bad )
Seat sensors were designed to detect a person in the seat for airbag deployment. While I appreciate the out of the box use of them. I personally don't see the need.

No. That has never happened to me. I have a backup camera and mirrors. If I do turn my head I am able to do so without lifting off the seat. Maybe call it one of the small joys of being of completely average size for an Anglo-Saxon male (5'9", 32" inseam). I have no trouble seeing out as well as all of the instruments in my Roadster, Model S, and any other car I've driven. So in my case there is no downside and there is a potential upside as I have small children and I like that the car won't move for them if they're "helping" me while I'm washing the car or cleaning out the inside. You may be shaped differently and/or have a different process for backing up so it causes a problem for you. I'm on board with having something like a 5-second delay for the <5mph slam into Park scenario as well as the autopilot scenario I described above.

 

[CanadaEV]

I think that by far the best constraint they could make would be to require hands on the wheel more often. At first I didn't think it mattered as long as my hands were at least near the wheel, and ready to take control. Now I see that hands on the wheel is the really safe option. It's a matter of your whole body responses. When you have your hands on the wheel, your body, conditioned for years to have that state coupled with attention to the road, is focused on driving. Hands off the wheel, and you lose connection with the car. Your attention does wander. If something happens, it takes time to regain focus, and that is dangerous. If your hands are loosely on the wheel, you have focus, and all that is needed is a fraction of a second to tighten your grip. People who don't understand this also don't understand what Autopilot is. They think it is closer to autonomous than it really is. Let's be responsible about this, and keep safe, and look after the interests of Tesla as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Many people say Tesla only requires hands on the wheel because they want to limit their legal liability. That is the way every other company operates, but Tesla, not so much. Sure, they have a legal department. But their advice is not self-serving. It is good, honest advice. The car is not ready for hands off the wheel. That's what they say, and that's what they mean, and it is not based on legalities. It is based on safety.

 

[sillydriver]

I think that by far the best constraint they could make would be to require hands on the wheel more often. At first I didn't think it mattered as long as my hands were at least near the wheel, and ready to take control. Now I see that hands on the wheel is the really safe option. It's a matter of your whole body responses. When you have your hands on the wheel, your body, conditioned for years to have that state coupled with attention to the road, is focused on driving. Hands off the wheel, and you lose connection with the car. Your attention does wander. If something happens, it takes time to regain focus, and that is dangerous. If your hands are loosely on the wheel, you have focus, and all that is needed is a fraction of a second to tighten your grip. People who don't understand this also don't understand what Autopilot is. They think it is closer to autonomous than it really is. Let's be responsible about this, and keep safe, and look after the interests of Tesla as well.

I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion, and the TAAC part of autopilot would be very useful with hands on the wheel, but it seems to me that having hands on the wheel, as opposed to prudently near the wheel, renders the autosteer part absolutely, completely and utterly pointless.

 

[Max*]

I think that by far the best constraint they could make would be to require hands on the wheel more often. At first I didn't think it mattered as long as my hands were at least near the wheel, and ready to take control. Now I see that hands on the wheel is the really safe option. It's a matter of your whole body responses. When you have your hands on the wheel, your body, conditioned for years to have that state coupled with attention to the road, is focused on driving. Hands off the wheel, and you lose connection with the car. Your attention does wander. If something happens, it takes time to regain focus, and that is dangerous. If your hands are loosely on the wheel, you have focus, and all that is needed is a fraction of a second to tighten your grip. People who don't understand this also don't understand what Autopilot is. They think it is closer to autonomous than it really is. Let's be responsible about this, and keep safe, and look after the interests of Tesla as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Many people say Tesla only requires hands on the wheel because they want to limit their legal liability. That is the way every other company operates, but Tesla, not so much. Sure, they have a legal department. But their advice is not self-serving. It is good, honest advice. The car is not ready for hands off the wheel. That's what they say, and that's what they mean, and it is not based on legalities. It is based on safety.

I'm not watching 14 minutes of your video, is there a particular part in the clip you'd like to point out where having your hands ON the wheel vs. NEAR the wheel saved you from an accident?

 

[CanadaEV]

Sillydriver, have you tried that advice as intended? Hands on the wheel does not mean interfering with Autopilot steering. I agree that if you did it that way, it would be pointless. No, it is loosely keeping your hands on the wheel, so the wheel slips almost frictionlessly through your fingers. 'Almost', I say, because the tiniest amount of friction is picked up by the wheel-motion sensors, and assures AP that you are there. Doing it this way is certainly not pointless. When you have your hands there it connects you to the car. When you are connected your focus is automatically engaged. Otherwise, after a very short period of time, your attention cannot help but wander. Sure, some people will say, 'Oh, I can keep my attention riveted to anything any time I want.' But that is only pride, not reality.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not watching 14 minutes of your video, is there a particular part in the clip you'd like to point out where having your hands ON the wheel vs. NEAR the wheel saved you from an accident?

Max, I'm glad you say Autopilot isn't the same as autonomous. We are in agreement. No, this isn't a video about a near miss. It is a video about why you should keep your hands on the wheel. It is for your safety, for the sake of your comfort, and at least as much about real respect for Tesla, which deserves your respect.

 

[Max*]

Max, I'm glad you say Autopilot isn't the same as autonomous. We are in agreement. No, this isn't a video about a near miss. It is a video about why you should keep your hands on the wheel. It is for your safety, for the sake of your comfort, and at least as much about real respect for Tesla, which deserves your respect.

I've done a lot of miles on AP already. I have a general feeling of when it's about to act up, and when it seems that it's doing OK. Sometimes I keep my hands loosely on the wheel, just because it feels weird keeping them in my lap (I don't know where else to put them?). Sometimes I keep them on my lap. Sometimes I keep them on my lap with my thumb on the wheel.

If you factor in reaction time, and are paying attention, having hands on the wheel will always be better, but I don't think having hands near the wheel is going to increase the number of crashes by a significant amount. Not paying attention, regardless if your hands are on the wheel or not, will cause many more crashes.

 

[CanadaEV]

I've done a lot of miles on AP already. I have a general feeling of when it's about to act up, and when it seems that it's doing OK. Sometimes I keep my hands loosely on the wheel, just because it feels weird keeping them in my lap (I don't know where else to put them?). Sometimes I keep them on my lap. Sometimes I keep them on my lap with my thumb on the wheel.

If you factor in reaction time, and are paying attention, having hands on the wheel will always be better, but I don't think having hands near the wheel is going to increase the number of crashes by a significant amount. Not paying attention, regardless if your hands are on the wheel or not, will cause many more crashes.

Max, I think that is a fair assessment. I'm not promoting inflexible rules, and I doubt that Tesla will. 'Thumb on the wheel' still gives a connection to your driving. The key, as you say, is where your attention is. I do think that we have to find some way to keep our attention on the road. As a passenger, we don't do that. Autopilot does tend to give us an impression of being a passenger when we don't have our hands on the wheel past a few moments.

 

[lolachampcar]

I keep hearing that AP makes you less attentive. I must be strange (actually, I know I am but that is a different subject) as I find myself seeing more when AP is on. It seems I use the extra bandwidth freed up from lane keeping to actually better understand what is in front of me.

I also have a very good feel for what I can and can not do with my hands a given distance away from the wheel. If I have a high threat situation, a hand goes on the wheel. For instance, going around a curve with a bicycle on the outside of me will cause me to put my hand on the wheel. I would need it there to prevent a problem. Once past the bike, the hand is back on my lap. I think the system is excellent as is and actually treats customers like they are adults.

 

[Max*]

Max, I think that is a fair assessment. I'm not promoting inflexible rules, and I doubt that Tesla will. 'Thumb on the wheel' still gives a connection to your driving. The key, as you say, is where your attention is. I do think that we have to find some way to keep our attention on the road. As a passenger, we don't do that. Autopilot does tend to give us an impression of being a passenger when we don't have our hands on the wheel past a few moments.

Have you tried using AP on city curves? It has a high pucker factor, and I can tell you with 100% certainty my hands are on the wheel.

I keep hearing that AP makes you less attentive. I must be strange (actually, I know I am but that is a different subject) as I find myself seeing more when AP is on. It seems I use the extra bandwidth freed up from lane keeping to actually better understand what is in front of me.

I also have a very good feel for what I can and can not do with my hands a given distance away from the wheel. If I have a high threat situation, a hand goes on the wheel. For instance, going around a curve with a bicycle on the outside of me will cause me to put my hand on the wheel. I would need it there to prevent a problem. Once past the bike, the hand is back on my lap. I think the system is excellent as is and actually treats customers like they are adults.

I agree, it lets you concentrate more on the bigger picture.

 

[lolachampcar]

This bit of technology has the capability to allow me to kill someone if I do not manage it so, yes, it is absolutely something to come to terms with. I stay within my comfort zone with respect to hands on/near the wheel then evaluate the experience to see if it adds or distracts from the total system performance. I am reasonably sure it adds a significant element of improvement in my case. I continue to do all the things I used to do while driving yet have the ability to use lane keeping as a few extra mips to improve safety.

 

[sillydriver]

Sillydriver, have you tried that advice as intended? Hands on the wheel does not mean interfering with Autopilot steering. I agree that if you did it that way, it would be pointless. No, it is loosely keeping your hands on the wheel, so the wheel slips almost frictionlessly through your fingers. 'Almost', I say, because the tiniest amount of friction is picked up by the wheel-motion sensors, and assures AP that you are there. Doing it this way is certainly not pointless. When you have your hands there it connects you to the car. When you are connected your focus is automatically engaged. Otherwise, after a very short period of time, your attention cannot help but wander. Sure, some people will say, 'Oh, I can keep my attention riveted to anything any time I want.' But that is only pride, not reality.

Max, I think that is a fair assessment. I'm not promoting inflexible rules, and I doubt that Tesla will. 'Thumb on the wheel' still gives a connection to your driving. The key, as you say, is where your attention is. I do think that we have to find some way to keep our attention on the road. As a passenger, we don't do that. Autopilot does tend to give us an impression of being a passenger when we don't have our hands on the wheel past a few moments.

The autopilot, its behavior and learning fascinate me. When I have it on I sit there scanning the view, focusing on trying to think like the autopilot, or rather I try to anticipate situations of road configuration, lighting (e.g. striped shading from sun through trees), positions of stopped cars, etc., that would give it trouble. If I see potential trouble coming up I have one or both hands hovering a half an inch off the wheel, ready to grab it. Otherwise I have my right elbow on the arm rest and my hand open a few inches away from the wheel ready to grab it. Sometimes, when it gets through a tricky spot without a hitch, I tell it 'good job' (when I'm alone in the car). What I have said applies best when I'm on a good two lane road (federal highway). I don't use it on the narrower, shoulderless country roads where I live, because I know my reflexes aren't quick enough to catch the wheel safely before it sends me into a ditch. Interstates, on the other hand, are clearly within its design parameters, so I tend to have my hands in front of me, but not hovering by the wheel. But I still spend my time trying to think of what I am seeing in terms of how the autopilot is likely to process the scene.

I don't want to have my hands on the wheel in part because I don't want to give the system unconscious directional cues that would invalidate my observations of how it's doing. It would also, in my opinion, destroy the fun of using the technology. I would probably just drive the car myself and stop posting reports (in other threads) about specific problem instances, cases of learning, etc., although for all I know, other participants in those threads would rather have me put my hands on the wheel, turn the system off and stop boring them with those posts.:smile: