EPA Has S85D Range at 285mi Highway with SleepMode

[AmpedRealtor]

EPA is 270 miles, so only 5 miles more than S85 or P85. Not that big of a deal.

P85D being 17 miles less than S85D is not so good. At least in the P85 days, you could get significantly improved performance without taking a hit on EPA range. Those days are gone, it seems, and that's too bad. Some want better performance without needing AWD, and some would like better performance without sacrificing range.

 

[Hvt1958]

Hello from Europe, I find range important when going abroad what I do about 10 times a year.
The city range is indeed less but the Highway is about 1% less as the rear motor can be put in sleep while at breaking still can add regenerated kW's. More interesting would be something alike what Tesla may be doing with the Roadster, soon these drivers are getting an offer to get a battery pack which add 30 percent rang, seems Panasonic is using less isolator material but adding capacity per cell.
I doubt I will wait with a trade to get a new one as there will always be a treat after my next purchase.

 

[WarpedOne]

without taking a hit on EPA range.

P85 had less range than S85. They just didn't bother retesting as they didn't have to.
Take a look at ranges reported from different owners across the country. P85 average is lower than S85 average.

 

[dsm363]

EPA is 270 miles, so only 5 miles more than S85 or P85. Not that big of a deal.

P85D being 17 miles less than S85D is not so good. At least in the P85 days, you could get significantly improved performance without taking a hit on EPA range. Those days are gone, it seems, and that's too bad. Some want better performance without needing AWD, and some would like better performance without sacrificing range.

Well the P85D weighs more, doesn't it? Sure, we'd all like max performance with amazing range but that doesn't always happen. If the range is more than the P85 while being a second quicker to 60 I hardly think that's worth complaining over.

 

[Hvt1958]

When purchasing my P85 I looked for acceleration instead of range as I charge only once every three days at work. You really have to ask yourselves whether the range is an issue when travelling, some do not like the long stop at charging points, I travelled three times to Berlin, the first trip was 840 kms, now since my second and third trip I have to D tour 6 miles only, there are plenty SuC toward Berlin so the first gives me a Coffee stop and the second a Food stop, it is all planning the trip well, I like driving the Tesla to Berlin and sometimes take it up to 215kms what reduced my range considerable, I charged overnight in Berlin so I could afford doing that Speed well over 135 kms and the German highways are alike ours in the Netherlands superb smooth, I have driven in some cities and highways around Chicago and now understand why some do not take 21" rims.
I love my Tesla and have winter tires on 19" rims but comfort is the same, probably thanks to the Air suspension.
Think I am not writing something new about the range, enjoy the Tesla's my friends!

 

[Saghost]

EPA is 270 miles, so only 5 miles more than S85 or P85. Not that big of a deal.

P85D being 17 miles less than S85D is not so good. At least in the P85 days, you could get significantly improved performance without taking a hit on EPA range. Those days are gone, it seems, and that's too bad. Some want better performance without needing AWD, and some would like better performance without sacrificing range.

The question you have to ask is: How often do I expect to drive ~200 miles of sub 40 mph stop and go traffic?

If like most of us the answer is "almost never," then you're looking at it the wrong way. The City and Highway ranges on the S85 are almost the same. On the two Ds they aren't close at all. The P85D gets 265.5 on the highway test - an almost unnoticeable 1.3 miles less than the S85. Meanwhile, the S85D ekes out a rather noticeable ~19 mile/7% gain on the highway, much more than the blended 5 mile improvement.

As far as I can tell, the highway range is what's going to matter when it comes to AER for all but a few specialized cases.
Walter

 

[lolachampcar]

IF the new software provides the quoted results as I'm not seeing anything remotely close to that now.

 

[breser]

I've been doing some more thinking and noticed an error in my previous post (I'd used 33.07 kWh for the Ge and it should have been 33.7 kWh). So I've gone and edited the math to be right it doesn't change much in my points but it does the numbers a bit.

It shows an even higher highway-number for both D-models than previously seen on stickers. Also much higher than the "old" RWD 85s used to have. So once again I get even more confused as these new EPA-numbers once again leads me to believe that my car will have _more_ range than older RWD 85s on highway, but the Tesla-blog did not say so....

I think the problem we're seeing here comes down to how the range works out at different speeds. Consider this graph from the range blog:

The majority of the highway miles in the 5-cycle test are still at relatively low speeds. Yes there is a high speed test that gets up to 80 mph but it still doesn't say that that speed the whole way. The entire highway cycle is in the 55-60 mph area, which is where the P85D does better than the S85. So this is just enough to keep it just under the S85 in the overall rating of range.

The 85D however, shows less range in city driving on the range but more in the MPGe and in the above graph. I suspect that the difference there comes down to the graph not being stop and go driving and the driving cycle being stop and go (where the extra weight would be more costly). But that still doesn't explain how the MPGe comes out higher.

I suspect that the answer comes down to how the MPGe or range is calculated. I know there are reductions to the actual MPG driven to account for wind resistance and other factors that don't show up on the dynamo tests. What I don't know is if the range calculations include the same factors. Actually I've never been able to find the regulations that explain how range is calculated for EVs. This isn't required for ICE vehicles so it's not in the regular bits of the CFR, isn't specifically in the EV parts of the CFR and is only vaguely mentioned in the SAE standard. The SAE standard does stipulate that the range comes from the same testing as the MPGe, but not really how.

 

[scaesare]

The Roadster's battery is upgraded with Model S cells. The Model S already has the latest cells, so the next gain is speculated to be after the gigafactory is in volume production.

It appears that the roadster pack will be upgraded with cells other than those used in the Model S.

 

[Andyw2100]

The majority of the highway miles in the 5-cycle test are still at relatively low speeds. Yes there is a high speed test that gets up to 80 mph but it still doesn't say that that speed the whole way. The entire highway cycle is in the 55-60 mph area, which is where the P85D does better than the S85. So this is just enough to keep it just under the S85 in the overall rating of range.

The 85D however, shows less range in city driving on the range but more in the MPGe and in the above graph. I suspect that the difference there comes down to the graph not being stop and go driving and the driving cycle being stop and go (where the extra weight would be more costly). But that still doesn't explain how the MPGe comes out higher.

I suspect that the answer comes down to how the MPGe or range is calculated. I know there are reductions to the actual MPG driven to account for wind resistance and other factors that don't show up on the dynamo tests. What I don't know is if the range calculations include the same factors. Actually I've never been able to find the regulations that explain how range is calculated for EVs. This isn't required for ICE vehicles so it's not in the regular bits of the CFR, isn't specifically in the EV parts of the CFR and is only vaguely mentioned in the SAE standard. The SAE standard does stipulate that the range comes from the same testing as the MPGe, but not really how.

As a P85D buyer, the improved highway MPGe number is the nugget I've been clinging to through all the range discussions, and all the potential negativity about the range issues as compared to previous models. As many have pointed out, where range really matters most (and certainly where it matters most to me) is on long trips, where highway mileage is most important. The overall range numbers of the P85D being lower than originally stated don't bother me much at all, provided that once we have torque sleep and the highway MPGe numbers on our Monroney stickers, we really do get better highway efficiency than the P85 and the other models that came before. I'm still counting on that.

 

[jerry33]

It appears that the roadster pack will be upgraded with cells other than those used in the Model S.

If that's so, my bad. I'll admit to not following it closely. Last I heard it was Model S type cells.

 

[dennis]

As a P85D buyer, the improved highway MPGe number is the nugget I've been clinging to through all the range discussions, and all the potential negativity about the range issues as compared to previous models. As many have pointed out, where range really matters most (and certainly where it matters most to me) is on long trips, where highway mileage is most important. The overall range numbers of the P85D being lower than originally stated don't bother me much at all, provided that once we have torque sleep and the highway MPGe numbers on our Monroney stickers, we really do get better highway efficiency than the P85 and the other models that came before. I'm still counting on that.

You need to look closely at the graph in JB's blog post that @breser posted above. The P85D has better efficiency than the S85 for constant speeds of 45-60 mph. It is equal to the S85 at 65 mph. And the P85D has less efficiency than the S85 at speeds of 70 mph and above. The effect of torque sleep is included in these numbers, and it is an apples-to-apples comparison using 19" wheels and the same tires.

So if you drive at 70+ mph you will not be seeing better range in your P85D than the S85/P85 even after you get the torque sleep improvements. On the other hand the efficiency at these speeds is only slightly less so IMO it is not a big deal, unlike the current firmware without torque sleep where the P85D efficiency is much worse than prior models.

 

[Andyw2100]

You need to look closely at the graph in JB's blog post that @breser posted above. The P85D has better efficiency than the S85 for constant speeds of 45-60 mph. It is equal to the S85 at 65 mph. And the P85D has less efficiency than the S85 at speeds of 70 mph and above. The effect of torque sleep is included in these numbers, and it is an apples-to-apples comparison using 19" wheels and the same tires.

So if you drive at 70+ mph you will not be seeing better range in your P85D than the S85/P85 even after you get the torque sleep improvements. On the other hand the efficiency at these speeds is only slightly less so IMO it is not a big deal, unlike the current firmware without torque sleep where the P85D efficiency is much worse than prior models.

I had seen that when the blog post came out. Thinking about it again now, though, and in light of the highway MPGe figures, I'm wondering if the EPA MPGe figure that is on our stickers is for some highway test that consists of testing at a range of speeds up to and including 65 MPH, but that never exceeds that. If that were the case, that could explain how the P85D's highway MPGe figure is higher than previous models' highway figure.

 

[dennis]

I had seen that when the blog post came out. Thinking about it again now, though, and in light of the highway MPGe figures, I'm wondering if the EPA MPGe figure that is on our stickers is for some highway test that consists of testing at a range of speeds up to and including 65 MPH, but that never exceeds that. If that were the case, that could explain how the P85D's highway MPGe figure is higher than previous models' highway figure.

From @breser's post here (the one with the graph):

The majority of the highway miles in the 5-cycle test are still at relatively low speeds. Yes there is a high speed test that gets up to 80 mph but it still doesn't say that that speed the whole way. The entire highway cycle is in the 55-60 mph area, which is where the P85D does better than the S85. So this is just enough to keep it just under the S85 in the overall rating of range.

 

[breser]

I had seen that when the blog post came out. Thinking about it again now, though, and in light of the highway MPGe figures, I'm wondering if the EPA MPGe figure that is on our stickers is for some highway test that consists of testing at a range of speeds up to and including 65 MPH, but that never exceeds that. If that were the case, that could explain how the P85D's highway MPGe figure is higher than previous models' highway figure.

Most of the highway testing is under 60. Graphs of the speeds of the test cycles can be found here:
Detailed Test Information

The highway and high speed cycles are what is included in the highway information. The highway cycle tops out at 60 mph and averages 48.3 mph. The high speed cycle tops out at 80 mph but still only averages 48.4 mph.

Despite the note about electric vehicles on that page I don't believe the test cycles have different speeds. The SAE standard just references the existing info on these test cycles. There are some differences but I haven't seen anything changing the speed/accelerations.

So yes this explains the MPGe being higher, I suggested this in my posts above. But there is still the disprepency between the MPGe and the range numbers that I can't fully explain.

 

[Andyw2100]

From @breser's post here (the one with the graph):

The majority of the highway miles in the 5-cycle test are still at relatively low speeds. Yes there is a high speed test that gets up to 80 mph but it still doesn't say that that speed the whole way. The entire highway cycle is in the 55-60 mph area, which is where the P85D does better than the S85. So this is just enough to keep it just under the S85 in the overall rating of range.

Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I wasn't reading breser's post closely enough. (Usually I'm the one pointing stuff like this out!) I'm going to blame this one on my wife distracting me at the time!

Seriously...thanks!

 

[breser]

The entire highway cycle is in the 55-60 mph area, which is where the P85D does better than the S85.

I went a tad too far in saying that the entire highway cycle is 55-60 mph area. A significant chunk of it is, but like I said above it still only averages 48.3 mph.